Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[berk60]

Have you ever prayed for a dearly departed? Have you ever spoken to a loved one who has left this world? A grandparent or friend?

If your Protestant pastor as everyone in the congregation to pray for a beloved member, would you?

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

I could go on and on.

We pray for the living not for the dead. What are some of the things that you pray for dead people? I can only assume forgiveness of their sins , reducing their sentence in a place you call purgatory so the can be perfectly righteous and go to heaven.

I wouldn’t pray for these types of things for a dead person because your time to personally accept Jesus Christ as you Savior is while you are alive. After that comes judgement.

 

[Jeanne1184]

Why do you need to know? Does the Bible contain all there is to know?

Only in the protestant world is prayer equated to worship, after they threw out their catholic roots of worhsip…in order not to look catholic.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pray

Definition of PRAY
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2: to get or bring by praying

Related to PRAY
Synonyms
appeal (to), beseech, besiege, conjure, entreat, impetrate, implore, importune, petition, plead (to), beg, solicit, supplicate

Fr. Pio was a channel of God’s love…which those in heaven are used in like manner, same as angels.

Well, how would you know an impostor from one who is not? Are you saying saints are impostors?

Tis best just to agree to disagree on Mary and the To and For praying, methinks.

Let’s say that Fr. Pio’s bones still smelled of roses and when held to the skin, cured leprosy. Would I fall on my knees and thank Fr. Pio - or would I fall on my knees and thank God? Fr. Pio was a servant of God - not the Master/Source. It’s like ‘loving the fruit but refusing to acknowledge the Tree which bore the fruit.’

How do we know imposters from the real thing? Test them, like the Bible says. There are some saints who give me serious pause.

I don’t race along the spirital path, I plod. Omissions sometimes have more weight than things spoken. There are precious few examples in the Bible to give a female hope amidst all the bashing. Men have heros in all shapes and sizes. It’s a curious thing.

Mary Magdalene is wonderful - but I feel it viscerally every time someone preaches on the ‘issue-of-blood woman’ (the point isn’t lost on me why she wasn’t given a proper name) and Christ Himself equates her to a dog. I Know I’ve been forgiven for my sinful life, beyond doubt. What that reaction is pointing to is deeper, more insidious - perhaps orginal sin itself. I don’t know - yet. I desire to Know.

Whatever it is that Woman did that I, today, still feel responsible for in some way - I’d truly like to discern. I’ve felt the curse of being female all of my life. When I got older, the worst curse I could wish on a man was that he die and be reborn as a woman. Then when I discovered that Jewish men regularly thank God that they were not born female - well, that told me that somebody knows deeper things than I’ve ever been able to uncover. I feed Hope.

So when tons of females are paraded as saints, I distrust the measuring stick used for them. Like they would have to be graded on the curve or something. Why were (are?) women ‘unclean’ during the monthly cycle? What is the reasoning behind that? Hygiene isn’t the answer or men wouldn’t spend so much time in bloody wars. It’s like our blood is tainted with something invisibly, grossly impure, perhaps.

And though I’ve never heard it preached, I suspect these reasons and a couple of others are why women are not considered for religious leadership positions by those in ‘in the know’ in the Catholic Church (and other religions). Christ says everything hidden will be revealed. A couple of previews would be nice.

Oh, how many hours I have pondered: (From the Gospel of Thomas)

1. Simon Peter said to Him, “Let Mary leave us, for women are
   not worthy of Life.” ((Notice Jesus didn’t rebuke Peter for his assessment.))

Jesus said, “I myself shall lead her in order to make her
male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you
males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the
Kingdom of Heaven.” ((Not even a breadcrumb included. ))

 

[peace2u2]

We can only read from the bible what it says about prayer and use that example. We can not read into the bible what we want it to say. Such as praying for intercession.

Here is a good example of God allowing intercessor prayer straight from the “Word of God”:
Rev. 8:3-4
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.
The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

In heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Sounds like God is responding to and allowing intercessory prayer, whether the request was made by God’s children on earth or in heaven.

 

[aidanbradypop]

We pray for the living not for the dead. What are some of the things that you pray for dead people? I can only assume forgiveness of their sins , reducing their sentence in a place you call purgatory so the can be perfectly righteous and go to heaven.

I wouldn’t pray for these types of things for a dead person because your time to personally accept Jesus Christ as you Savior is while you are alive. After that comes judgement.

Indeed

 

[Isaiah45_9]

In what part of the Bible does Mary Ascend?

In what part of the Bible does it say that everything must be in the Bible?

Book, Chapter and Verse please.

Also, what Bible?

 

[57Bill]

I had a conversation the other day on this topic so I thought I would present it to the forum. A Protestant friend of mine has prayer groups where they pray for others and ask for prayers in return.

I presented the question …If we can ask one another to pray for us, why can’t we ask the Mother of God and the Saints to do the same?

Her reply was that they are dead and do not pray for us and asking them to do so goes against Scripture.

Your thoughts?

I think an approach that Protestant’s might possibly accept for them and their beliefs is when they pray they might ask God for assistance in their specific need by granting them some of the qualities, strength and courage of the life and Spirit that the Saints expressed during their time on earth. Give them a small baby step they might grasp…like planting a seed.

Do the Saints pray for all of us? I would think so, just not in a way that we can understand now.

a ? Is it a Catholic belief that only the recognized Blessed or Canonized are actually Saints in heaven?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

We don’t serve a God of confusion.

The Catholic Church has been preaching this since Pentecost!

Where’s the original writings of the Bible?

 

[aidanbradypop]

I think an approach that Protestant’s might possibly accept for them and their beliefs is when they pray they might ask God for assistance in their specific need by granting them some of the qualities, strength and courage of the life and Spirit that the Saints expressed during their time on earth. Give them a small baby step they might grasp…like planting a seed.

Do the Saints pray for all of us? I would think so, just not in a way that we can understand now.

a ? Is it a Catholic belief that only the recognized Blessed or Canonized are actually Saints in heaven?

All those who are in heaven are saints

 

[peace2u2]

We pray for the living not for the dead. What are some of the things that you pray for dead people? .

We don’t pray for dead people.

Matthew 17:3
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him.

Sounds like Jesus is praying with two men that have already died - but they are not dead! They are alive in heaven and that is what we do when we pray to the saints in heaven or our family members who have died on earth.

 

[Jeanne1184]

Jeanne1184, are you Catholic. If yes, do you practice your Catholic faith? Answering these questions for me would really help out a lot. Thanks

Yes, I’m Catholic, with 12 yrs. parochial schooling. A rebellious Catholic in early adulthood and then indifferent for a number of years. Too many questions and not enough answers. The past 14 yrs have been more intriguing and fruitful.

 

[peace2u2]

Is it a Catholic belief that only the recognized Blessed or Canonized are actually Saints in heaven?

No.

They are role models whose lives we should try and emmulate.

 

[peace2u2]

What are some of the things that you pray for dead people? I can only assume forgiveness of their sins , reducing their sentence in a place you call purgatory so the can be perfectly righteous and go to heaven.

Berk60, if you died right now…are you perfectly righteous to go to heaven?

Protestantism has reduced God to being no longer Holy. He is still Holy and He can’t be near anything other than Holy and that is why every soul is purified before entering Heaven no matter how Holy they were - Purgatory is not a place.

When we sin against God, its like putting nails into our souls. When we repent and ask for God’s forgiveness, the nails are removed, but holes remain. Those holes need to be healed and if they are not completely healed here on earth then they are when we pass thru purgatory on our journey home to heaven.

 

[Edson]

Recommend this book to everyone who does not understand the Catholic teaching of the Communion of Saints.
store.patrickmadrid.com/any-friend-of-gods-is-a-friend-of-mine/

Also the debate on the Veneration of Saints and images in which James White debates Patrick Madrid on this very matter is also very helpful.

So next time any of my protestant friends ask me to pray for them I will eloquently ask them why? Can’t you go directly to God?

 

[berk60]

Here is a good example of God allowing intercessor prayer straight from the “Word of God”:
Rev. 8:3-4
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.
The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

In heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Sounds like God is responding to and allowing intercessory prayer, whether the request was made by God’s children on earth or in heaven.

I agree that the prayers of the people on earth are received by God and an angel is serving God by mixing these prayers and incense together. Were you lost me is where do you see in this text that the dead saints in heaven are interceding for us.

 

[peace2u2]

I agree that the prayers of the people on earth are received by God and an angel is serving God by mixing these prayers and incense together. Were you lost me is where do you see in this text that the dead saints in heaven are interceding for us.

Berk60 - if a person is in heaven, do you believe that they are dead? Those that are in heaven are NOT DEAD. I am not the only one who has posted and not the first time your reading this — WE DO NOT THINK THEY ARE DEAD. So what is your problem? Go on to the next question that your having problems understanding and stop beating the nail on the head.

 

[pablope]

I agree that the prayers of the people on earth are received by God and an angel is serving God by mixing these prayers and incense together. Were you lost me is where do you see in this text that the dead saints in heaven are interceding for us.

Where does the Bible say those in heaven, the saints in heaven are dead?

Are you SDA?

Matt 22:30

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

In heaven, we are like angels…who intercede for us, minister to us…those in heaven do as angels do.

And Rev 5:

8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of saints.

The prayers are the incense to goes to God.

The 24 elders are not angels…they are saints in heaven.

So as per the passages from Revelation, prayers do go directly to God, they brought to God by angels and saints.

 

[campeador]

Perhaps you can help me find in Scripture where it instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God? I cannot find any verse that encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals who have passed onto glory for their prayers.

God bless…Gail

Luke 16:24-28—
And he said, with a loud cry, Father Abraham, take pity on me; send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, My son, remember that thou didst receive thy good fortune in thy life-time, and Lazarus, no less, his ill fortune; now he is in comfort, thou in torment. And, besides all this, there is a great gulf fixed between us and you, so that there is no passing from our side of it to you, no crossing over to us from yours. Whereupon he said, Then, father, I pray thee send him to my own father’s house; for I have five brethren; let him give these a warning, so that they may not come, in their turn, into this place of suffering.

St. Paul prays for his deceased friend Onesiphorus:
2 Timothy 1:16-18—
May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus; often enough he revived my spirits. Instead of being ashamed of a prisoner’s acquaintance, he sought me out when he was in Rome, and succeeded in finding me.* The Lord grant that he may find mercy with his Lord when that day comes*; what he did for me in Ephesus I have no need to tell thee.

Peace.

 

[pablope]

We don’t serve a God of confusion. The bible is precise and can stand on it’s own. If someone is read something into scripture then by examining the entire bible deeper this deception can be brought to light and corrected.

No, Berk60…the Bible cannot stand on its own. It needs an interpreter. This is exactly what you are doing and failing to realize it.

But the question is…is your interpretation correct? How can we tell you are correct?

And who do you think should be the interpreter of the Bible?

 

[berk60]

Berk60 - if a person is in heaven, do you believe that they are dead? Those that are in heaven are NOT DEAD. I am not the only one who has posted and not the first time your reading this — WE DO NOT THINK THEY ARE DEAD. So what is your problem? Go on to the next question that your having problems understanding and stop beating the nail on the head.

OK, let me phrase this question differently so you know what I mean. From this these verses where do you see that the prayers are coming from alive saints in heaven or alive saints on earth? If we harmonize the bible we only see alive people on earth praying. That’s why I don’t think that alive people in heaven are interceding for us because it does not harmonize with the other examples we have in the bible.

 

[peace2u2]

Matt 22:30

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

In heaven, we are like angels…who intercede for us, minister to us…those in heaven do as angels do.

And Rev 5:

8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of saints.

The prayers are the incense to goes to God.

The 24 elders are not angels…they are saints in heaven.

So as per the passages from Revelation, prayers do go directly to God, they brought to God by angels and saints.

These are all fine examples showing Scripture supports Intercessory prayer. Just like at Mass, the incense is used to show that our prayers are rising to heaven and heaven is mingling with us here on earth.

Scott Hahn’s book, The Supper of the Lamb is a good book to read (Berk 60- I recommend you read it.)

Also Jesus shows us in Scripture how to pray…There is more than one way to pray. Jesus shows us how to pray with our traditional prayers teaching us the Our Father, interecessory prayer (the wedding at cana), and of course spontaneous prayer - but also remember regarding “spontaneous prayer” Jesus slaps the hands of the Pharisees who pray on the street corner with their elaborate prayers — Sometimes the best prayers are the most simple prayers like just saying His Holy Name - JESUS, I love you.