Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[pablope]

Tis best just to agree to disagree on Mary and the To and For praying, methinks.

Me thinks…you are disagreeing with a dictionary that provides for the proper meaning of prayer.

Unless, you are making your own dictionary?

Let’s say that Fr. Pio’s bones still smelled of roses and when held to the skin, cured leprosy. Would I fall on my knees and thank Fr. Pio - or would I fall on my knees and thank God? Fr. Pio was a servant of God - not the Master/Source. It’s like ‘loving the fruit but refusing to acknowledge the Tree which bore the fruit.’

We should thank both. Padre Pio for being a willing servant and channel of God’s grace…and God for providing that grace throught Padre Pio.

How do we know imposters from the real thing? Test them, like the Bible says. There are some saints who give me serious pause.

That is right…the Bible says test them…but how?

1 John 4

4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world… 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

So when tons of females are paraded as saints, I distrust the measuring stick used for them. Like they would have to be graded on the curve or something.

Well, what should be the measuring stick, according to you? And are you the authority to impose what that measuring stick is?

 

[peace2u2]

That’s why I don’t think that alive people in heaven are interceding for us because it does not harmonize with the other examples we have in the bible.

And you are wrong. God placed St. Pio of Pietrelcina in my path (too long to elaborate here) and 5 months later I returned to a place that I had vowed that I would never go again…I entered the confessional after being away for more than 3 decades and let me tell you that all of heaven rejoiced with me!

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

 

[pablope]

OK, let me phrase this question differently so you know what I mean. From this these verses where do you see that the prayers are coming from alive saints in heaven or alive saints on earth? If we harmonize the bible we only see alive people on earth praying. That’s why I don’t think that alive people in heaven are interceding for us because it does not harmonize with the other examples we have in the bible.

Berk60…do you think those in heaven need prayers for themselves?

What do you think they do in heaven? Play monopoly or do God’s bidding?

The passage does not distinguish…nor does it not exclude. It means both.

Rev 5:

11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

 

[EIF5A]

I can accept saints being alive in heaven and praying, but can they hear our pleas to them to pray for us? How “aware” are they? What’s the first Scriptural or patristic writing or church teaching that says that they can hear our individual thoughts?

 

[Jeanne1184]

Luke 16:24-28—
And he said, with a loud cry, Father Abraham, take pity on me; send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, My son, remember that thou didst receive thy good fortune in thy life-time, and Lazarus, no less, his ill fortune; now he is in comfort, thou in torment. And, besides all this, there is a great gulf fixed between us and you, so that there is no passing from our side of it to you, no crossing over to us from yours. Whereupon he said, Then, father, I pray thee send him to my own father’s house; for I have five brethren; let him give these a warning, so that they may not come, in their turn, into this place of suffering.

To me, the person languishing in the flames no longer had access to anyone of the Trinity - which is why I think we pray to God for them so their sins can be forgiven through the Holy Spirit who is within us. We are intecessors for those who missed the boat in this life. It’s a good thing. Many of us living today may also be in that predicament on a future day. Who knows, maybe even if someone would pray for me - if I didn’t share my Life Force with them, perhaps God won’t answer their prayers on my behalf. He gives mercy to whom He chooses, the Bible says.

It also sounds like heavenly bodies cannot assist. Either mercy is extended from us on earth or no help will be arriving.

 

[campeador]

I can accept saints being alive in heaven and praying, but can they hear our pleas to them to pray for us? How “aware” are they? What’s the first Scriptural or patristic writing or church teaching that says that they can hear our individual thoughts?

Please see post #275

 

[pablope]

I can accept saints being alive in heaven and praying, but can they hear our pleas to them to pray for us? How “aware” are they? What’s the first Scriptural or patristic writing or church teaching that says that they can hear our individual thoughts?

I do have a question for you too: Do you think those in heave…will do anything contrary to God’s will?

What do you think those in heaven do?

Matthew 22:30

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels[a] in heaven.

Those in heave an like angels, have the attribute of angels.

And I think there is a passage in Luke (?) that says those in heaven rejoice when one of us here repents.

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[campeador]

To me, the person languishing in the flames no longer had access to anyone of the Trinity - which is why I think we pray to God for them so their sins can be forgiven through the Holy Spirit who is within us. We are intecessors for those who missed the boat in this life. It’s a good thing. Many of us living today may also be in that predicament on a future day. Who knows, maybe even if someone would pray for me - if I didn’t share my Life Force with them, perhaps God won’t answer their prayers on my behalf. He gives mercy to whom He chooses, the Bible says.

It also sounds like heavenly bodies cannot assist. Either mercy is extended from us on earth or no help will be arriving.

You are certainly entitled to believe what you want, but this is not mainstream Christian understanding.

Peace.

 

[EIF5A]

I do have a question for you too: Do you think those in heave…will do anything contrary to God’s will?

What do you think those in heaven do?

Matthew 22:30

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels[a] in heaven.

Those in heave an like angels, have the attribute of angels.

And I think there is a passage in Luke (?) that says those in heaven rejoice when one of us here repents.

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

What does that have to do with them being aware of our prayers from earth? They are praying, but do they pray for our individual causes after we pray to them?

 

[EIF5A]

Please see post #275

It seems he was in a place of torment (purgatory or hell?), not on earth…Also, his pleas seem to be useless after death…

 

[berk60]

And you are wrong. God placed St. Pio of Pietrelcina in my path (too long to elaborate here) and 5 months later I returned to a place that I had vowed that I would never go again…I entered the confessional after being away for more than 3 decades and let me tell you that all of heaven rejoiced with me!

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

St. Pio of Pietrelcina is not relevant to harmonizing God’s word in the bible. You are speaking of a personal experience of something that has happened to you in your life. By the way I am happy that God’s healed you. Praise God!

 

[berk60]

No, Berk60…the Bible cannot stand on its own. It needs an interpreter. This is exactly what you are doing and failing to realize it.

But the question is…is your interpretation correct? How can we tell you are correct?

And who do you think should be the interpreter of the Bible?

The Holy Spirit is the interpreter of the bible. Without Him it is all foolishness.

 

[campeador]

It seems he was in a place of torment (purgatory or hell?), not on earth…Also, his pleas seem to be useless after death…

He was praying directly to Father Abraham, who was not dead but alive and fully capable of answering the rich man’s prayers, although not in the way he had hoped. And yes, the rich man was in hell, as the Bible passage clearly indicates.

 

[berk60]

Berk60…do you think those in heaven need prayers for themselves?

What do you think they do in heaven? Play monopoly or do God’s bidding?

The passage does not distinguish…nor does it not exclude. It means both.

Rev 5:

11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Your verse answers your question. Those in Heaven praise God with there lips by singing and chanting praises to Him and even play music to go along with the praise. Nothing about holding vigils interceding all the day long.

 

[berk60]

Berk60…do you think those in heaven need prayers for themselves?

What do you think they do in heaven? Play monopoly or do God’s bidding?

The passage does not distinguish…nor does it not exclude. It means both.

Rev 5:

11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

I don’t think those in Heaven need prayers for them self. They are saved and with the Lord.

 

[pablope]

The Holy Spirit is the interpreter of the bible. Without Him it is all foolishness.

Okay…can you demonstrate to me how the Holy Spirit interprets the Bible?

Let me give you an example:

John 6:

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink

Can you provide to me the Holy Spirit’s interpretation of this passage?

 

[pablope]

I don’t think those in Heaven need prayers for them self. They are saved and with the Lord.

If they do not need prayers…what do you think they do in heaven? Are they like angels, as Matt 22:30 says?

 

[Lochias]

I don’t think those in Heaven need prayers for them self. They are saved and with the Lord.

Berk, for the third time, please answer my question:

You’ve said two entirely different things: That we can only approach and pray to Jesus on our own, and that it is ok for other people to pray for us.

Which is it? It can’t logically be both.

 

[pablope]

What does that have to do with them being aware of our prayers from earth? They are praying, but do they pray for our individual causes after we pray to them?

Look at the link…there is a ton of Scriptural references and ECF writings.

 

[berk60]

Okay…can you demonstrate to me how the Holy Spirit interprets the Bible?

Let me give you an example:

John 6:

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink

Can you provide to me the Holy Spirit’s interpretation of this passage?

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26

John 16:13

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.