Why not Orthodox?

[Wandile]

Speaking as a Byzantine Catholic, it is not denial of the Latin Church’s theological perspective. It is when it is pushed on us as Easterners. We have our own theology, spirituality, etc. As @Isaac14 noted, it seems that some Roman Catholics are fine with our Eastern “look” as long as we are Roman Catholics in belief. Unfortunately, to do so would be going against the teachings of Vatican II as well as the teachings of the Popes the last 100 years or so.

ZP

We must believe the same things. Dogmas aren’t negotiable and every item I listed there is a dogma of the faith. Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?
We are all Catholics. There is ONE faith. Many expressions. There are not many faiths. That would introduce different religions.

I have not pushed anything on them other than correct doctrine. That’s non-negotiable unless you are are saying the church must allow heresy?

 

[dochawk]

Outside of the Church?!?! That’s hard for me to believe.

That’s OK; VII and the last few popes have the same problem, so you’re in good company!

 

[Wandile]

Wandile:

The EO are most definitely outside the church.

Outside of the Church?!?!

Yes.

That’s hard for me to believe.

Submit yourself to the teachings of Holy Mother Church who has said many times that she and only she is the Church of Christ. Even at Vatican II. In fact she said so at Vatican II even more emphatically. Again in 2001 this was reiterated in when the Church, through the CDF, issued Dominus Iesus :

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”

• Dominus Iesus

How can one be “outside” of the Church if one has valid Apostolic succession? How can one be “outside” of the Church if on has a valid Eucharist and Sacraments?

“One cannot have [salvation] except in the Catholic Church. Outside of the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer Amen, one can have the Gospel, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and preach, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”

• St Augustine of Hippo (Sermon to the People of the Church of Caesarea, Chapter 6.)

Does there still need to be dialogue about the role of the Pope of Rome and the Eastern Churches? Yes, but outside the Church, no!

Full communion = in the church. That and only that. The EO are not in full communion with us.

The “schism” is internal.

There is no such thing as an internal schism. Schism is the separation of one from the body of the church. It’s a mortal sin that damns one to hell (objectively speaking)

It is an issue with upper management. Rome, Moscow and Constantinople do not play nice with each other. Theologically, Rome teaches that the Orthodox are sound in their beliefs.

ZP

In most of their beliefs but not all. Rome teaches they are wrong about the Filioque, Papal primacy, Purgatory and all other matters I mentioned. They play nice with each other but that is all. The disagreements still remain and even the Orthodox admit this.

 

[Wandile]

ziapueblo:

Outside of the Church?!?! That’s hard for me to believe.

That’s OK; VII and the last few popes have the same problem, so you’re in good company!

Vatican II said they are outside the church. It said only the Catholic Church is the church of Christ. Again Dominus Iesus issued in 2001 reiterated this truth. That document was not popular in ecumenical circles for obvious reasons.

 

[ziapueblo]

No because Eastern Catholics believe all of the items listed above. They just express them differently.

I think your response here is what drive some Eastern Catholics “mad.” (The reason I say “some” is because I know to many “Byzantine” Catholics that are in our Churches purely for liturgical “satisfaction” and have no interest in living and expressing themselves spiritually as Byzantines). You see, before Vatican II we were just considered rites of the Roman Catholic Church. We were to believe everything as Latin’s but express ourselves liturgically as Easterners. This began to change with Pope Leo XIII. Things have greatly changed since Vatican II.

Why not say the Eastern Catholic Churches have their own expression of the faith? Why not say Greek’s, Syriac’s, Alexandrian’s and the Latin West’s theology are complimentary? Why not say that the Second Vatican Council and resent Popes of Rome have called on the Eastern Catholic Churches to live out their ancient ecclesiastical heritage, which include our liturgy, theology and spirituality? Why not admit that this ancient ecclesiastical heritage is Eastern which is the same heritage as our Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox brethren?

It always has to be said in a way like this, “this is how Rome teaches and by golly you have to believe in it!” But, of course, always at the end of the statement “hey you guys can express it differently.” It is very antagonistic for an Eastern Catholic and we (and to a great fault, especially me) will get very defensive because we fell like we are being backed up into a corner by our fellow Catholics.

I understand that many on this forum know that Eastern Catholics “express the faith differently,” but why is it that Roman definitions have to always be thrown in our face? Why not trust that Rome knows what they are doing when they allow us to be Easterners?

ZP

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

It is very antagonistic for an Eastern Catholic and we (and to a great fault, especially me) will get very defensive because we fell like we are being backed up into a corner by our fellow Catholics.

I agree…I think it’s a big reason why so many Eastern Catholics end up in the Orthodox Church. I know a few who have gone that route and I admit it’s tempting to me at times as well.

 

[Wandile]

Simply put because a lot of the time Eastern Catholics don’t formulate themselves properly (I mean on internet forums). Like you for instance having a problem with me saying we must have the same faith… even though you clearly don’t mean that we must have contradictory beliefs, it does come across as you saying that…which is why Latins have a bit of an issue. Only when you elaborate like you did above is when it becomes clear you don’t mean that.

I think you must realize that all Latins are ever saying is that there is one truth and that there are many expressions of it. We do not mean that you are a rite. Just that it takes on its own life forms in different traditions. We only ever seek to affirm the unicity and catholicity of the faith. Not undermine your tradition. The reason why we seem so abrasive is because of how you communicate yourself. It sounds like you are arguing for dogmatic pluralism and relativism which something that should worry any Christian if they think they are hearing a fellow Christian saying something like that. That’s why I would rather urge you to not argue the point when a latin says we must believe the same things. Because belief and expression are two different things. The former must be uniform, the latter can be a multiplicity.

 

[Wandile]

My main issue with Byzantine Catholicism as it exists today is that there is an incorrect assumption that being Eastern means being Eastern Orthodox… They see EO as their elders rather than equals. You are equally eatsern and Byzantine as them. Yet it’s clear that some Eastern Catholic undermine their easternness by seeking to become more Orthodox because to them Orthodox = Eastern.

I have seen extremes of this where one Melkite literally said he denies the Filioque, Immaculate conception, Papal infallibility, Purgatory etc. He took the EO side on every issue but somehow still called himself a catholic. It’s as ridiculous as a man calling himself a catholic but believes wholeheartedly in Lutheranism. This phenomena is explained in the simple phrase “Orthodox in communion with Rome”. To this crowd, being Eastern is more important than being catholic. Why not just simply say you’re catholic? Isn’t that what you are after all?

 

[Isaac14]

I agree…I think it’s a big reason why so many Eastern Catholics end up in the Orthodox Church. I know a few who have gone that route and I admit it’s tempting to me at times as well.

I would take this even a step further from the perspective of an Orthodox Christian…I think this is also subtly damaging to ecumenical progress.

On the hand, the official dialog between our churches is promising and is working through these challenging topics to find a solution that is faithful to both. On the other hand, I come on a forum like this and see my spiritual cousins (for lack of a better term) being told how they can and can’t express their faith and and find it rather discouraging.

 

[ziapueblo]

I agree…I think it’s a big reason why so many Eastern Catholics end up in the Orthodox Church. I know a few who have gone that route and I admit it’s tempting to me at times as well.

I feel you. The OCA I visit every so often has a few of our former parishioners.

ZP

 

[Wandile]

Angel_Gabriel:

I agree…I think it’s a big reason why so many Eastern Catholics end up in the Orthodox Church. I know a few who have gone that route and I admit it’s tempting to me at times as well.

I feel you. The OCA I visit every so often has a few of our former parishioners.

ZP

Doesn’t that bother you?

 

[ziapueblo]

Simply put because a lot of the time Eastern Catholics don’t formulate themselves properly (I mean on internet forums). Like you for instance having a problem with me saying we must have the same faith… even though you clearly don’t mean that we must have contradictory beliefs, it does come across as you saying that…which is why Latins have a bit of an issue.

I’ve never said we don’t share the same faith. I’m like you, we express the same faith in a different way theologically. For example:

Denial of Purgatory

As a Byzantine Catholic, I don’t deny that the Latin Church belief in Purgatory. I don’t believe it’s heresy as some Orthodox might (I’m not sure because I’ve never personally met and Orthodox who believes Roman Catholics are heretics except for a few on Facebook ). But as a Byzantine, we reject is the need to make expiation for sin after death (Purgatory). That’s fine because we share the belief in purification after death. When I say reject I dot mean deny what the Latin Church teaches, we just don’t teach it.

I think you must realize that all Latins are every saying is that there is one truth and that there are many expressions of it.

I understand your point but what if the tables were turned? Let’s say the Syriac Tradition was the “dominant” as far as population and they always spoke of the Truth only in their theological perspective and that Latins, Byzantines and Alexandian rite Catholics had to believe in it. Even if the meant “in your own expression” it would come across in a way that you would feel the need to become defensive about your theological expression.

ZP

 

[ziapueblo]

Sure, because I believe in communion with Rome. Although I do understand where they are coming from. My parish has not done an effective job of getting ride of some latinizations. Even though small, these parishioners want to be someplace authentically Eastern. I’m one at my parish that is very vocal about this stuff. They have often wondered why my family and I haven’t jumped ship yet.

When I attend Liturgy at the OCA parish it’s not dissimilar to my Byzantine Catholic parish. We follow the same liturgical calendar, we express ourselves spiritually the same way, we great each other in the same manner. I feel at home. When I’m out of town and there is no Byzantine Catholic Church I go to an Eastern Orthodox parish.

ZP

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

When I’m out of town and there is no Byzantine Catholic Church I go to an Eastern Orthodox parish.

But but but…you’re not fulfilling your Sunday Obligation!!!

All joking aside, I do the same on occasion

 

[Wandile]

what if the tables were turned? Let’s say the Syriac Tradition was the “dominant” as far as population and they always spoke of the Truth only in their theological perspective and that Latins, Byzantines and Alexandian rite Catholics had to believe in it. Even if the meant “in your own expression” it would come across in a way that you would feel the need to become defensive about your theological expression.

ZP

I wouldn’t really as the substance of what they were asserting would be true. I only worry about truth as it is truth that saves not expression.

Funnily enough what you propose was true in the first millennium to a degree. The Greeks dominated the ecumenical councils and defined in their terms. They said it is the faith of all and the Latins accepted without any issue and found a way to express in the latin theological context.

 

[Wandile]

Sure, because I believe in communion with Rome. Although I do understand where they are coming from. My parish has not done an effective job of getting ride of some latinizations. Even though small, these parishioners want to be someplace authentically Eastern. I’m one at my parish that is very vocal about this stuff. They have often wondered why my family and I haven’t jumped ship yet.

When I attend Liturgy at the OCA parish it’s not dissimilar to my Byzantine Catholic parish. We follow the same liturgical calendar, we express ourselves spiritually the same way, we great each other in the same manner. I feel at home. When I’m out of town and there is no Byzantine Catholic Church I go to an Eastern Orthodox parish.

ZP

Technically you’re canonically bound to go to any other Catholic Church.

As to the rest of what you said, I appreciate your answer.

 

[dochawk]

Vatican II said they are outside the church

Take a look at what it actually said, and about degrees of communion.

And look art what +Benedict had to say about needing nothing more for communion than communion itself.

 

[Justin_Mary]

But but but…you’re not fulfilling your Sunday Obligation!!!

All joking aside, I do the same on occasion

All seriousness, as an Eastern Catholic do you differentiate between grace & “less grave” sin like a western Catholic or is a sin a sin like Orthodox?

Do you receive communion every week?

Do you feel obligated to attend Devine Liturgy every Sunday?

Have you ever confessed missing a Sunday service?

 

[Wandile]

Wandile:

Vatican II said they are outside the church

Take a look at what it actually said, and about degrees of communion.

And look art what +Benedict had to say about needing nothing more for communion than communion itself.

Yeah Pope Benedict wrote Dominus Iesus , the document that infuriarated ecuemnists because it reiterated the timeless dogmatic truth of the Catholic Church alone being the Church of God.

The degrees of communion represents the fact that though they are separated from us, by baptism they still remain close to us and I’m the case of EO, even closer in the sacraments but they are still in schism. If there we’re now schism then there wouldn’t be need for ecumenism it to call them our seperated brethren.

 

[twf]

Rome, Moscow and Constantinople need to learn to play nice with each other.

Honestly, I think one of these is not like the others…Rome and Constantinople play pretty nice and have for a while.