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Robert902
Guest
This “fire” that Paul is refering to is the day of judgement where the sincerity of each one’s work will be evaluated. Good work will be rewarded, and unfaithful or inferior work will be discounted.
God judges two groups of individuals; the goats and the sheep, and at different times. All the “goats” are doomed to hell, and all of Gods’ “sheep” will spend eternity with Him in heaven.
So this “fire” that Paul speaks of is for God’s “sheep”, and they will be rewarded according to their works. Remember Eph 1:14 our salvation is guaranteed, if you are born again that is.
The “goats” will be judged and sent to hell for their sins. But the good news for the “sheep” is that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins on the cross. “for the wages of sin is death” applies only to the goats. “But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” applies to God’s elect or His “sheep.”
If I am truly born again (one of God’s elect), and I commit all of the sins you mentioned above right before I die, even if I wasn’t baptized, I will go to heaven. That is not my interpretation, that’s what the Bible teaches. We don’t have to like it, and to many Christians they just don’t get it. Remember God is merciful. Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Many Christians want to subtract from that verse and change it to “For the wages of sin is death.” They want to remove all of God’s mercy from the Gospel.
1 Cor 3:16-17 “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.”
Are we sacred by our own work? Impossible, and God cannot look at sin, because He is holy. But because of what Jesus did on the cross (with respect to our sins), we are totally justified and holy in God’s eyes. I am totally in awe of God’s mercy, because I know I deserve a place in hell.
If there is place called purgatory, I have never seen any indication of such a place spoken about in the Bible. 1 Cor 3:11 is definitely not talking about a place where we go for purging. If there are any verses in the Bible that talk about such a place, I am not aware of any.
God Bless,
Robert
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InLight247
Guest
So you are saying ,murderers, robbers, all directly go to heaven as long as once upon a time they had a born again experience.
Don’t forget Jesus even condemns those who did not feed the hungry and send them to eternal punishment. God is a Just God, he would not put up with sins. You are taking God for granted. You are saying once you are born again you get a licence to commit all kind of sins.
1Cor 3:11 definitely is talking about purgatory.
We Catholics do not interprete Bible on our own. This is the explanation of the Church. It is explained by well learned and studied theologians and Church fathers. If you insist your explanation is more correct than so many theologians, I really don’t have much more to say.
You haven’t answered where I can find the very word of “trinity” in the Bible.
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guanophore
Guest
Jesus said he will take car of this Himself. Matt 13:24-30
24 Another parable He set forth before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 But while he was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed also darnel (weeds resembling wheat) among the wheat, and went on his way.
26 So when the plants sprouted and formed grain, the darnel (weeds) appeared also.
27 And the servants of the owner came to him and said, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then how does it have darnel shoots in it?
28 He replied to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and weed them out?
29 But he said, No, lest in gathering the wild wheat (weeds resembling wheat), you root up the [true] wheat along with it.
30 Let them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will say to the reapers, Gather the darnel first and bind it in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my granary.
I think some of the worst sins in history is the Catholic Church officials trying to change people who don’t believe the same. This resulted in inquisitions, crusades and many murders. It is sufficient to teach and practice the truth, becuase that is what will triumph. Anyway, I have enough errors in my own life to correct, that I don’t need to expend my energies trying to correct those of others!
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guanophore
Guest
Caesar;1911368:
God can save souls from anywhere He wills. It is great that your relationship with Jesus has turned your life around. It think the Catholics would say, though, that you only have part of the inheritance that was promised in Christ, if you are outside Catholocism, which is seen as the fullness of the faith. Can a soul be “partly saved”? I don’t think so. Can a person be saved if they only have part of the revelation of God? I think so.QUOTE]
Hi,
Im a bit confused by this statement. So do you think that souls are not being saved in protestant churches? If so, how is it that I am having a relationship with Christ that has turned my life around?
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guanophore
Guest
Think about being a member of the early church, and that you only had a couple letters, or maybe a gospel, instead of the whole canon we have now. REmember how Paul writes that they should share his letters around? He instructed them to also read the one he wrote to the Laodiceans, though that one has never been found. Anyway, wouldn’t you want to get the rest, if you knew there was more? Yes, the Bible is true, and profitable for instruction in righteousness, but it is not the ONLY revelation of God. The other half comes from Tradition.i dont see how someone who follows the Bible and the Bible alone can be wrong just because they aren’t Catholic. isn’t the Bible completely true? the Bible doesn’t say anywhere “Hey Brady, you should be Catholic or you cant follow Me proberly.” it says to follow God and gather with others who follow God and the Bible. yes the Catholic church can be helpful in your walk as a Christian but God hasn’t told me it is necessary to be Catholic to live a godly life. Didn’t God say where people are gathered in His name (not specifically the name of the Church) He would be there? (actually where is that i cant remember?).
I don’t “fight” with people of other faith practices, even if I don’t agree with them. It is true that we should focus on our commonalities, and the bible is one of those, but the differences are not in what it says, but how it is interpreted. This is where the big separation occurs, because some of us believe that truth is found in Tradition, as well as the Bible. In that tradition we find guidelines that interpret the scriptures, and so although we agree that it is truth, we often disagree about what the truth is saying.
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guanophore
Guest
This is a pretty simplfied view. In fact, the Bible says a lot more that that! yes, we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. If that were all, though, why did Jesus need to teach and preach for three years? You apparently are not aware that everyone interprets the Bible differently, and that difference in perception changes how it is applied to life. however, if it works for you, more power to you! Why are you in here?
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guanophore
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I think that training and practice of evangelism has been a weakness of the Catholic Church. However, there is something to be said for the approach of St. Francis “Preach at all times, and if necessary, use words”. I also think the spiritual formation of sexuality in supposedly celibate priests has been a weakness.
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Robert902
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Christ paid the penalty. Please read Romans 5: 6-8. Don’t be all bummed out, remember Gospel means good news.So you are saying ,murderers, robbers, all directly go to heaven as long as once upon a time they had a born again experience.
Don’t forget Jesus even condemns those who did not feed the hungry and send them to eternal punishment. God is a Just God, he would not put up with sins. You are taking God for granted. You are saying once you are born again you get a licence to commit all kind of sins.
1Cor 3:11 definitely is talking about purgatory.
We Catholics do not interprete Bible on our own. This is the explanation of the Church. It is explained by well learned and studied theologians and Church fathers. If you insist your explanation is more correct than so many theologians, I really don’t have much more to say.
You haven’t answered where I can find the very word of “trinity” in the Bible.
My reason for saying that even if I commit all the sins you mentioned, and die immediately that I will still go to heaven. Why, because of Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” The key word is still.
You don’t need any organization to tell you what this means. What else could it mean? I am still a sinner and God demonstrated His love for me by Christ’s death. That is so beautiful, God showing His love and mercy to His children while we are STILL in our sins…that just blows me away! Still in our sins means right now. We really never can stop sinning can we? I can’t!
The word trinity is not used in the Bible, but there are many passages which verify that there are three persons in the Godhead. It is a word that was coined to capture the essence of God The Father, God The son and The Holy Spirit.
The idea of a place where God sends sinners (His children) for purging until they are justified, just doesn’t make sense from a biblical perspective. Jesus died on the cross for our sins. When God does something, it is never half done. When Jesus healed people, they were healed completely. The lame man didn’t limp off and the blind man didn’t need glasses. Why would salvation be any different. It is a gift. Who ever received a gift that they had to work for?
I don’t insist that my explanation is more correct than many theologians. In fact very few of them agree with your interpretation of 1 Cor 3:11-14. Possibly a church that incorporates purgatory into their dogma, might use this passage to justify this entity.
I’m not trying to be contentious, because Proverbs 6:16-19 tells me not to do that. I am motivated by 2 Tim 3:16-17 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproff, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
Love,
Robert
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water
Guest
Please, you don’t want to say those sins - murder, etc - Where is faith without love?
How does your faith along with murders save you?
1 Corinthians 13:2
Oh well, this thread seems to take twists and turns again.
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MrS
Guest
Christ paid the penalty.
Christ -re-opened the gates of heaven for all… does not mean all will enter for eternity. And St. Paul tells us about make up in the flesh for what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. Sounds like he does not agree with you at all… and he doesn’t.
My reason for saying that even if I commit all the sins you mentioned, and die immediately that I will still go to heaven.
Revelations tells you NO… nothing unclean will enter Heaven, and sin certainly makes us unclean. If you die in your sleep after a day of sin… well… be grateful for God’s merciful gift of that final purging.
We really never can stop sinning can we? I can’t!
When God does something, it is never half done.
Really… like creation… and now He “needs” our cooperation to continue giving Him souls.
When Jesus healed people, they were healed completely.
So, when one is baptized, say as a young person, or an infant, and then you tell them they need to be born again… I guess they were not “healed” completely from their original sin, huh?.. And if you think you can continue to sin and still hold a life-time guarantee to heaven… you were not completely healed of you sinful life… but so what.
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is **profitable **for doctrine, for reproff, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
Sounds like OUR BOOK may help you toward the knowledge of Truth. But if you have been taught, or if you assume that all you have to do is pray to the Holy Spirit, read the Book, and depend on private interpretation… you are in for a big surprise… even scripture will warn you of your pitfalls for doing that.
Love,
Robert
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guanophore
Guest
Why would God command you to 'stop sinning" if it were not possible for you to do it?
This is just a misunderstanding of the teaching on purgatory Robert. Salvation is one thing, Sanctification is another. Yes, Jesus did complete the work of salvation on the cross. However, after we accept that work, many of us ARE still limping and blind! Our deliverance from our wrong ways can sometimes take a lifetime, and for many, has not been finished at death. If, after one is justified by faith, there is no need for continued purification, why are there so many teachings in the Bible directing us toward change and disciplined living of the holy life?
I don’t think you are trying to be contentious. You just have some reasoning errors. Most of the theologians you know do not interpret the scriptures that way because they are Protestant! For that reason, they will not recognize the teaching of the Church from Holy Tradition. If a person
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InLight247
Guest
Robert:
I am amazed that you could not find the very word of “trinity” but you can still accept it.
Yet when it is so obvious that 1Cor 3:15 talks about the purifying fire in purgatory and you just have to argue.
Jesus died for us when we are sinners so mankind can once again have a way back to God.
But admission does not equal to graduation!!
Without admission, there is no way at all.
With admission, there is still a long way to graduation. But at least there is a way.
Many parts of Bible have clearly told us we have to be holy to enter into the kingdom.
All the other Catholic posters and I have all said what we have to say. Yet you insist you can kill, and steal, and commit adultery, and you can still directly get into heaven.
When you take God for granted, take his justice as a joke, and take baptism or born again experience as licence to sin, there is nothing more I can say.
I sense a profound sorrow in my heart for people who hold such a view. I have nothing personally against such people, but my heart truly aches. I will pray for you. God bless!
I am amazed that you could not find the very word of “trinity” but you can still accept it.
Yet when it is so obvious that 1Cor 3:15 talks about the purifying fire in purgatory and you just have to argue.
Jesus died for us when we are sinners so mankind can once again have a way back to God.
But admission does not equal to graduation!!
Without admission, there is no way at all.
With admission, there is still a long way to graduation. But at least there is a way.
Many parts of Bible have clearly told us we have to be holy to enter into the kingdom.
All the other Catholic posters and I have all said what we have to say. Yet you insist you can kill, and steal, and commit adultery, and you can still directly get into heaven.
When you take God for granted, take his justice as a joke, and take baptism or born again experience as licence to sin, there is nothing more I can say.
I sense a profound sorrow in my heart for people who hold such a view. I have nothing personally against such people, but my heart truly aches. I will pray for you. God bless!
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Robert902
Guest
I’ve used many passages from the Bible to back up what The Holy spirit has revealed to me about my salvation. I know that I was chosen before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4-5. I know that my salvation is guaranteed Eph 1:14. I know that I have escaped death for my sins, and have been given the gift of eternal life Romans 6:23. I know I don’t need to be baptized to go to heaven 1 Cor 1:17. I know God called me, justified me and glorified me Romans 8:30. God has also predestined me to be conformed to the image of His Son Romans 8:29. I know that I have eternal life, and no one can take that away from me. John 10:28-29. .
And what do I have to do to receive this gift? According to Jesus Christ, you need to be born again. That’s what He told Nicodemus. Was Jesus fibbing to Nicodemus?
The word predestined means that God has done this, and nothing can change that. Jesus Christ, God incarnate, came down from heaven and dwelt amongst us and died on the cross for our sins. That’s something you and I could never do for ourselves. For the wages of sin is death…but only for those who have not been given the gift of eternal life.
Read your Bible…It’s all in there if you would only read it. How can God communicate this to you if you won’t read His book. The bible is a love letter to you , and many of you won’t even open the letter up.
Many of you tell me that we are not to interpret the scriptures on our own, and must believe what some church tells us they mean. Where is that notion mentioned in the Bible? There are some excellent application study Bibles (Tyndale House Publishers and Zondervan Publishing House) ) that will help you.
I’m not arrogant, and believe me I do not take lightly what God has done for a filthy sinner like me. But I take Him at His word, and I know that if He tells me that I am saved, that surely some day I will be with Him in heaven forever! I don’t need an organization to tell me what the Bible says, and neither do you.
Ps 119:105 “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.” Praise God!
God Bless,
Robert
And what do I have to do to receive this gift? According to Jesus Christ, you need to be born again. That’s what He told Nicodemus. Was Jesus fibbing to Nicodemus?
The word predestined means that God has done this, and nothing can change that. Jesus Christ, God incarnate, came down from heaven and dwelt amongst us and died on the cross for our sins. That’s something you and I could never do for ourselves. For the wages of sin is death…but only for those who have not been given the gift of eternal life.
Read your Bible…It’s all in there if you would only read it. How can God communicate this to you if you won’t read His book. The bible is a love letter to you , and many of you won’t even open the letter up.
Many of you tell me that we are not to interpret the scriptures on our own, and must believe what some church tells us they mean. Where is that notion mentioned in the Bible? There are some excellent application study Bibles (Tyndale House Publishers and Zondervan Publishing House) ) that will help you.
I’m not arrogant, and believe me I do not take lightly what God has done for a filthy sinner like me. But I take Him at His word, and I know that if He tells me that I am saved, that surely some day I will be with Him in heaven forever! I don’t need an organization to tell me what the Bible says, and neither do you.
Ps 119:105 “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.” Praise God!
God Bless,
Robert
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guanophore
Guest
I checked this thread, and I cannot find anywhere someone told you that we are not reading the Bible. Where do you get that?
2 Peter 1:20
20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
It is not “some church” it is the Church that Jesus founded. Are you recommending protestant study bibles to us poor lost Catholics because you think our Church does not help us to understand the Bible?
2 Peter 3:15-16
So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
Perhaps you will pardon those of us that feel differently? You see, we believe that Jesus founded this Church, and that he promised to guide us into all truth through it.
Out of curiosity, who are the ignorant and unstable persons who twist the scriptures? Evidently you do not see yourself as one. Is that how you see Catholics? When there are passages that are hard to understand, do you believe that the answers will come to you through private revelation?
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Robert902
Guest
The foundation of God’s church was laid by The Apostles and The Prophets. Jesus is the head, and the true believers are the body. That is what the Book of Acts describes as God’s church.
I say that my salvation is guaranteed and was predestined before the foundation of the world, and have backed it up with many many passages from the Bible. The overwhelming response I get to this is that I am twisting scripture. If this is true, please back up your claim with something from scripture.
My reason for saying that many here do not read the Bible, is that many of the conclusions and opinions on these threads could not possibly be gleaned from reading The Bible. I’m not interested in opinion, only the facts given to me through God’s word…The Bible.
God Bless,
Robert
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guanophore
Guest
This has already been done by others more qualified than I, so I think I will just defer on the issue of predestination and salvation.
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp
Catholics believe that the Word of God is described at the beginning of the gospel of John. In the beginning was the Word…the Word is Jesus Himself. He expresses himself in both the oral and the written word. I think we just see it differently. When we read the scripture, we come to different conclusions because we are using a different framework. Catholics admit that they are using a framework, whereas, most protestants do not. I could not say this except that I spent three years in a Protestant Seminary, learning the framework. I later came to understand that the Catholic framework is different.
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Servant1
Guest
What makes you think you have to speak out against anybody?
The best sermon is a life being lived.
You don’t have to antagonize anybody in order to evangelize for your cause. I’m thinking you’ll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. It’s not a matter of political correctness. It’s a matter of Christian charity: what start off by putting somebody on the defensive? SHOW them how a Christian lives. SHOW them what good Catholics are really like. Then you won’t have to argue with them at all. If you have to argue with them, they’re not converting anyway.
The best sermon is a life being lived.
You don’t have to antagonize anybody in order to evangelize for your cause. I’m thinking you’ll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. It’s not a matter of political correctness. It’s a matter of Christian charity: what start off by putting somebody on the defensive? SHOW them how a Christian lives. SHOW them what good Catholics are really like. Then you won’t have to argue with them at all. If you have to argue with them, they’re not converting anyway.
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awantz
Guest
Good Point ServentWhat makes you think you have to speak out against anybody?
The best sermon is a life being lived.
You don’t have to antagonize anybody in order to evangelize for your cause. I’m thinking you’ll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. It’s not a matter of political correctness. It’s a matter of Christian charity: what start off by putting somebody on the defensive? SHOW them how a Christian lives. SHOW them what good Catholics are really like. Then you won’t have to argue with them at all. If you have to argue with them, they’re not converting anyway.
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