Why only Jesus?

[dmelosi]

I think it is obvious his intentions were less than honest when he came here.

 

[Parrot]

I think it is obvious his intentions were less than honest when he came here.

Thanks. I have reported your accusations to the moderators thusly…

“This is not fair and is an example why I felt rejected by this website and this group. I asked questions and all I got was references to documents. I was even accused of using drugs! Is this what Catholics are about? If one questions their faith are they to be considered drug users and dishonest people?”

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Why only Jesus?

The most important reason, because its true.

“FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” [Jn 17:3] “God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” [1 Tim 2:3-4] “There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” [Acts 4:12] - than the name of JESUS.

 

[LilyM]

Thanks. I have reported your accusations to the moderators thusly…

“This is not fair and is an example why I felt rejected by this website and this group. I asked questions and all I got was references to documents. I was even accused of using drugs! Is this what Catholics are about? If one questions their faith are they to be considered drug users and dishonest people?”

Parrot, I apologise. It was a joke, admittedly in poor taste. I’m sure none of us actually thinks you’re on drugs.

As I said, though, if you want to seriously learn about any subject - any other topic whatsoever - then at some point you are going to have to look at written documents related to that subject!

If you want to learn mathematics, you expect to have to open your maths textbook. If you want to study one of Shakespeare’s plays, you’re going to have to read that play AND scholarly works that experts have written *about *it. If you want to find out about the philosophy of Plato or Aristotle, you’ll have to read their writings.

Catholicism and other faiths are no different in this regard, they require study. They require at a minimum reading of the Bible, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the case of our faith (since we don’t solely rely on the Bible).

 

[Pedro]

Parrot,
I’ve read the entire thread and it wasn’t wasn’t easy keeping up. I’d like to say that the reason you are getting “hostility of sorts” as you put it, is because you keep asserting that the Catholic Church teaches all non-believers will go to hell. Christianity (my definition is all who believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God) is divided into thousands of denominations/churches that have different ideas about who goes to heaven or to hell.

The Catholic Church, as other posters have already said, does not believe that all non-believers go to hell. The only way to know for sure what the Catholic Church teaches regarding this is to read official Church documents on the matter because individual Catholics may believe something that doesn’t correspond 100% with what the Catholic Church officially teaches.

I’d like to get back to your original question, as I see you honestly want an answer to your question, and your misconceptions about what the Catholic Church teaches are pulling this thread off track.

So you asked - why Jesus?

dmelosi mentioned the book “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis that makes a very good logical case that Jesus is God. Another book that I would recommend is “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. These would be your best bets to finding in-depth investigations on the evidence for Jesus.

Both books will mention that the truth of Christianity hinges on the Resurrection. If Jesus really rose from the dead as he predicted he would, then his claim to being the Son of God is true. The Resurrection is the supreme vindication of Jesus’ claim to divinity.

The written record indicates that hundreds of people saw and spoke with the risen Jesus. It is very unlikely that the people who claimed to have seen Jesus were lying. One or two, or even ten people may have created a conspiracy, but it is very difficult for the hundreds of people who claim to have seen Jesus after the Resurrection to all maintain a lie. It is also very unlikely that the people who saw the risen Jesus were hallucinating. Hallucinations are individual occurrences and they aren’t something that can be seen by a group of people together.

So did Jesus really rise from the dead?

When Jesus was crucified his followers were discouraged and depressed. They had all deserted Jesus when he was arrested, and Peter even denied knowing him three times. They no longer had any confidence that Jesus was the One sent by God. The Jesus movement was all but stopped on it’s tracks.

Then after a short period of time, we see them abandoning their occupations, regathering and committing themselves to spreading a very specific message - that Jesus was the Messiah from God, who died on the cross, returned to life and was seen by them. They spent their entire lives proclaiming this without any payoff from the human point of view. They lived in hardship, were ridiculed, beaten, imprisoned, and finally, most of them were executed in torturous ways.

For what? Not for fame or fortune, but because they were convinced beyond a shadow of doubt that they had seen the risen Jesus. There is one big difference between them and other martyrs of their faith - they were in a position to not only believe Jesus rose from the dead but to know for sure because they saw him risen. While most people can only have faith that their beliefs are true, the disciples were in a position to know without any doubt whether or not Jesus had rose from the dead.

If they weren’t absolutely certain, they wouldn’t allow themselves to be tortured to death for proclaiming they witnessed the Resurrection. People will die for their faith if they sincerely believe it’s true, but people won’t die for their faith if they know their beliefs are false.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

One cannot make an intelligent decision without facts and at the moment, I want someone to tell me why they believe Jesus is a God. Just to give an idea where my mind is lingering… Why not replace Jesus with “The Holy Spirit?” According to Christian doctrine, it is the same thing. I could sooner believe that than Jesus I think. Jesus has bad marks in my mind because he WAS human and WAS executed like a criminal. The crucifix has no more significance that the same crosses that other criminals were executed on and no more real importance than the iron cross of German Nazis if you get right down to reality. There has to be more to convince me. I am not against ritual, but it has to
have a basis. I don’t know how else to explain it, but I won’t be intimidated by anyone.

This is a really well posed question, Parrot. I think maybe we were having trouble understanding each other

Is Jesus God (not just A god, but THE God)? As you have said, there is no amount of documentation that can prove or disprove this thought. Those of us who believe have to know where the roots of our beliefs are or we will be washed away with the first doubt that comes along. I can answer only for myself, and I am no expert on the faith. I find my strength in a couple of places, first was Jesus’ actions while he was among us. He had thousands of followers, yet he lived as a poor man. In the story of the loaves and fishes we hear of 5000 people coming to hear him teach. Did he ask for a dinar from each of them? Nope. Did he ask for sacrifices? no again. Instead he fed them, not only with the Word of God, but with the bread and fish that somebody brought to him. I imagine in a group that size that most of them had no idea of the miracle that he had performed.

Next example would probably be at the house of Ca’iaphas. All Jesus had to do was say “I’m not God” and that would have saved his life. Yet he bore the death of a slave for our sake.

Look to the Apostles, would they have given their lives so willingly for a false religion? What would they gain? They KNEW Jesus better than any human at the time, surely they would have known his true nature, right? If you spent 3 years with me and I kept telling you I was the Son of God, would you believe me? Would you continue to tell other people about me after I died? Would you die a martyr’s death for my sake? The Apostles did.

Jesus said over and over “I am here to do the will of the One who sent me.” and I am inclined to follow him. For better or worse, Jesus has NEVER let me down…even when I didn’t put my faith in him as I do now.

We live in the same Metro area, Parrot, so we’re not just talking about my Church, we’re talking about my Archdiocese, my Archbishop, my home. And I can assure you, I will throw my arms around you and call you Brother if you come visit my parish. There is no prejudice in Archbishop Gregory’s house!

May the Lord bless the path you are on, and lead you to the Truth.

 

[CherryBomb]

"THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH THAT NON-CHRISTIANS WILL GO TO HELL FOR BEING NON-CHRISTIANS" Cherrybomb

C’mon, Cherry. A non-Christian is someone who rejects Christ and that person is bound for hell no? If not, why couldn’t I join the Catholic Church if I was not convinced Jesus is a God.

Are you implying that I could reject Jesus, but profess faith to God and be allowed into the Church and into Heaven?

I will cut you some slack as you display a bit of intelligence… So on the other possible view, you may be saying that The Catholic Church doesn’t teach these people will go to Hell, they just assure those who DO believe in Jesus and are therefore Christians are assured of not going to Hell?

I don’t understand your question. If you don’t believe that Jesus is God, you have no reason to join the Catholic Church, as that’s a fundamental belief of the religion. You don’t have to be a Catholic to get into Heaven. If you’re sincerely seeking God and reject Jesus, you’re not going to Hell just for that. If you believe that Jesus is God and the Church is His church and reject that, then you probably will go to Hell. Many Protestants do believe they can be assured of who is and is not going to Heaven or Hell, but Catholics don’t profess that. Once again, the problem seems to be that you’re really confusing your Baptist upbringing with Catholicism. Not the same thing at all!

The CC also doesn’t teach that believing in Christ will assure you a place in Heaven. Some Protestants believe that all they have to do is believe and accept Christ as their savior to get into Heaven, Catholics do not.

 

[CherryBomb]

Why do I believe Jesus is God? Well firstly, I looked at history. I believe there’s enough secular evidence to support that Jesus was a real person. He claimed that He was God, as seen in the link I provided earlier with Scriptural references. So, either He was a liar, a lunatic, or He was truly the Son of God. Then I looked at all the OT prophecies He fulfilled. A liar or a lunatic might luck out on where and who he was born to, but I find it an illogical stretch to say that Jesus was either of those and yet managed to fulfill EVERY prophecy about the Messiah. Even the temple leaders didn’t deny that He did things like work miracles. They knew and believed He did and charged him with working on the Sabbath. My reasoning plus my faith and personal revelation leads me to no other conclusion than Christ was the Word made flesh, the Messiah, the Son of God and of Man.

Re: the Trinity- the Trinity is referred to as a “mystery of faith.” Meaning it’s a concept that’s very difficult for the human mind to grasp. St. Patrick likened the Trinity to a clover- three leaves from one body.

 

[kellie]

We seem to be getting nowhere here. I thank you for your opinions.

Thank you for your help in making my decision. Obviously the Catholic Church is not a place I wish to be.

Moreover, this forum is not a place for enlightenment. I think I will go ask a priest instead. But wait! I am not allowed to speak to a priest if I am not Catholic. Darn. There goes my soul.

Anyone can speak to a priest. How do you think people decide to convert?

Why do you want to join the Catholic Church if you don’t believe Jesus is God?

And why do you complain that you can’t join us as you won’t believe all our doctrines? Why would you want to join a group whose doctrines you don’t believe?

The Catholic Church is a Christian church, but that does not mean we should be lumped with the “christianity” that has taught you that all non-believers in Jesus are going to hell.

The Catholic Church does not teach this.

As for your posts that said you don’t want to go to other web sites, why would you not want to research as many different sources as possible to seek the Truth?

 

[Parrot]

Why only Jesus?

The most important reason, because its true.

Apparently I am not allowed to leave this website, so I will continue the discussion today.

The above quoted comment is incorrect. To simply state that an idea is true and back it up with quotes from the Bible is a weak defense at best. Here in the Southern US, there are people who drive around with bumper stickers that say things like, “God said it. I believe it. End of discussion.” Whereas the person has the right to say and believe such a thing is valid, it does not prove anything to someone who may not regard the Bible as the actual words of God.

One problem I have always had with the Bible is that it was written by humans. Like Priests and Popes and any other human, who is to prove that God actually caused them to write such things in His name? Obversely, why didn’t God strike me dead yesterday or allow me to be separated from this forum and save you all from having to read my ideas? Could it be that God is directing these comments in the purpose to “test” (as someone suggested) what you believe?

 

[kellie]

Parrot,

If we are not to use the Bible, and say our faith is true, how do you wish us to prove to you that Catholicism is right through an internet forum?

 

[CherryBomb]

Why do I believe the Bible is the word of God? As I said in my last post, I believe Jesus was who He said He was. I believe He was wise and truthful when He founded the Church. That Church brought the Bible together, and I have faith that she’s correct. If you don’t believe any of those things or have faith, there’s not really anything anyone can do to prove to you that the Bible is the Word of the Lord.

 

[carol_marie]

I know you said you don’t want to read anything else - but only talk to “common people” but here’s a good book written by a common guy who was an atheist. He wanted to investigate if Jesus truly was who the Bible claimed or if people were just blindly following a made up story. It is an excellent book and if you are sincerely seeking answers, I think it would be helpful to you.


upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/ChristII.jpg

The author, Lee Strobel, is not Catholic - but your original question - Why Only Jesus will be answered with this book.

 

[Parrot]

… If you don’t believe that Jesus is God, you have no reason to join the Catholic Church, …

I did not say I did not believe that. I said I believe in God and am asking only why is Jesus ( a human) seen as a part of God. As example, if one asks the same question of Baptists, they will simply refuse to discuss the idea and tell you you are going straight to hell if you do not immediately profess the faith - right there beside the road in front of them. I also am attracted by the ritual. I figure if you’re going to worship God, the best way is to do it in a huge and beautiful Cathedral with incense and Holy water as opposed to the common Baptist method of just having some teenager stand up as a lay preacher and tell you you are all going to Hell if you don’t buckle under. Conversely, if you go to a Catholic Church and ask this question, you will be directed to sign up for the Catechism classes before any priest or parishioner will speak to you.

How much does a Catechism class cost anyway?

I AM a fair person for the most part, so slept on the ideas presented yesterday and did some reading. I did not learn anything new, however.

I went to the Vatican’s website and began to read the Catechism. First thing was believing in God… No problem there. Second thing was believing in Jesus… just as I had remembered from previous readings of it. The rest of it all was based on those two beliefs as you have said. I still ask why? To me, if a religion (and some are by the way) based on worship of the Devil, then it is fairly easy to determine whether that is ones path or not. For me, that is unacceptable, so I choose religions that are based on belief in God. Then one has the choice of such things as Wiccan beliefs who hold that God is a female or the planet itself and that is just not my belief, so again I adhere to the more traditional religions as choices.

You must remember that the person who may not adhere completely to the Christian beliefs is not afraid of going to Hell because Hell does not exist for them. We may, after all, simple die and it will be as going to sleep without ever waking up. You would never know any afterlife and would neither feel rewarded nor punished. This is actually a reasonable idea to contemplate as it happens to everyone of us each night. In other beliefs, this is not the first time I have lived a life on this planet and there may be many more to come. I may come back until I DO join the Catholic Church for all I know.

You don’t have to be a Catholic to get into Heaven. If you’re sincerely seeking God and reject Jesus, you’re not going to Hell just for that.

This is a new idea. I have to ask, though, does this mean such a person would not be in Hell but neither be in Heaven? I understood that only people who believe in Jesus are in Heaven (someone here even confirmed that earlier). Where would these souls be?

Once again, the problem seems to be that you’re really confusing your Baptist upbringing with Catholicism. Not the same thing at all!

Well at least you are intelligent to realize the general idea here. Yes. I was raised in a Baptist Church. I believe I stated that when I started this thread. Possibly some of you are not aware that in order to be Baptized in a Baptist Church, you have to join the church first, then you get Baptized as opposed to the opposite Catholic way where you are Baptized and then join the Church.

The CC also doesn’t teach that believing in Christ will assure you a place in Heaven. Some Protestants believe that all they have to do is believe and accept Christ as their savior to get into Heaven, Catholics do not.

Well yeah, but the difference is only that Catholic doctrine asks for good works and not just belief. (You see I DID take **your **advice, Cherry, and read the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism last evening). BTW, Wikipedia (referred to by some as an insignificant secular source, is good for this kind of research simply because it is secular and is unbiased.

My idea is not to join the Catholic Church to get to Heaven. I probably wouldn’t like Heaven anyway (too may Baptists to contend with you know.) My goal is to worship God in a place where it is befitting rather than just praying to a tree in the back yard. That is what I believe God as guided me toward. He does not seem to like the tree idea and it is most annoying to have my red-neck neighbor start talking to me in the middle of it.

 

[Parrot]

… Those of us who believe have to know where the roots of our beliefs are or we will be washed away with the first doubt that comes along.

Excellent point.

We live in the same Metro area, Parrot, so we’re not just talking about my Church, we’re talking about my Archdiocese, my Archbishop, my home. And I can assure you, I will throw my arms around you and call you Brother if you come visit my parish. There is no prejudice in Archbishop Gregory’s house!

You are most kind but remember, this is Atlanta and I am not a “brother” I am a “cousin”… I doubt an Archbishop would speak to a person who is a nobody anyway and particularly not a White person in this city.

 

[puzzleannie]

Sorry, but I could not find the article you refer to. I do believe that faith in Christ IS a prerequisite to joining the Catholic church and that anyone who does not believe that is bound for hell. .

yes on the homepage, left hand column one topic is salvation, and this is a link to one of several articles on the topic, specifcically, salvation for those outside the Church
catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
it took a while to answer because I could not find this thread in apologetics, where it belongs.

this is one of the most frequently discussed topics here so a search in the apologetics forum under salvation, EENS, baptism or similar key words will be very beneficial

 

[CherryBomb]

RCIA is free, if that’s what you mean by Catechism class.

I said I believe in God and am asking only why is Jesus ( a human) seen as a part of God.

I think I’ve covered that pretty well with my other posts If one believes that Jesus is who He said He was, then it would follow that He is God, since He said so Himself! You’ll either come to that conclusion, or you won’t, there’s nothing definitive that anyone can tell you to prove it’s true. We all have come to our beliefs in different ways!

Conversely, if you go to a Catholic Church and ask this question, you will be directed to sign up for the Catechism classes before any priest or parishioner will speak to you.

No you won’t! At least, not at our parish. My husband met with our parish priest many times over a period of months before we started RCIA. We were never pushed to start. (Now, if you have a parish that starts RCIA at a specific time, they’ll probably let you know that). A good priest will talk to you, whether or not you’re planning on starting RCIA immediately. (He might ask you to make an appointment and come back, though, they are busy!)

I have to ask, though, does this mean such a person would not be in Hell but neither be in Heaven? I understood that only people who believe in Jesus are in Heaven (someone here even confirmed that earlier).

I don’t know where they’ll be, only God knows that. I do know that the Church teaches that anyone sincerely seeking God will not be doomed to Hell for not being a Christian. I must’ve missed the post you’re talking about The Church does teach about Purgatory, but Purgatory isn’t a permanent state. It’s almost like a cleansing, if I understand it correctly.

Good luck on your journey!

 

[Parrot]

Parrot,

If we are not to use the Bible, and say our faith is true, how do you wish us to prove to you that Catholicism is right through an internet forum?

The reason is that in my experience, the Baptist (an many of you as well) seem to think that any person should hold things said in the Bible as absolute proof. That is an error in a debate with someone who does not believe that is true. If I said to you that what is said on the Wikipedia website is truth and that science has the truth, then the discuss would spiral off into a creationism debate and not answer the question.

I suppose what I am looking for is to discover a reason from you who are Catholic that the Church is more valid than the “stuff” I was taught by the Baptists. To me, it is more valid to hear a person who is a contemporary tell me what they believe as opposed to some document approved by the organization of the Church or some book written 2000 years ago. I don’t dispute that longevity and acceptance by many cultures adds credence to the Bible and other texts, I am just asking what the modern Catholic believes and feels, in essence.

You see one other thing taught by Baptists is that the Catholic Church is a bunch of people who have no opinions or minds of their own. The Baptists call you “fish eaters” and think that you all sin during the week and are absolved in confession on Sunday and are free to sin with a fresh slate the following Monday. I know that is a crude and unfair viewpoint but that is the sort of thinking that led me away from the Baptists because I have a higher regard and respect for peoples’ beliefs than that. Now I am trying to determine what possibly crude ideas the Catholic Church and its people think about other religions and what better ideas exist as well.

Let me reiterate for clarity. I personally believe that anyone who believes in one God and leads a life based on commonly accepted social virtues ( not killing or stealing, etc) is seen as a good soul by God. I am amazed at the diverse views of religious groups in general.

I watched a move the other night called “Flight 93” which depicted the hijacked flight on Sept 11th that crashed before it could strike Washington DC. Admittedly it was “hollywood,” but there was some truth in what they showed. Here were the passengers (American) all praying to God for their lives, and the terrorists (Islamic) all praying to God to assist them in success at killing Westerners. What do you suppose God thought about that on that day? I cannot say, but I thought it ridiculous for humans to have such different ideas about God that they would be on completely different paths and each convinced that God sanctioned what they thought was right.

 

[CherryBomb]

The reason is that in my experience, the Baptist (an many of you as well) seem to think that any person should hold things said in the Bible as absolute proof. That is an error in a debate with someone who does not believe that is true. If I said to you that what is said on the Wikipedia website is truth and that science has the truth, then the discuss would spiral off into a creationism debate and not answer the question.

Well, yes, that’s why it’s an impossible thing to debate. You can’t prove that the bible is the word of God anymore than you can disprove that the bible is the word of God. At least not in the way most of us think of “proving” things. I see the proof in the fulfillment of prophecies. Others don’t. People can explain their own reasoning for their beliefs, but that really just lends to understanding, not persuasion, which is the point of debating.

I suppose what I am looking for is to discover a reason from you who are Catholic that the Church is more valid than the “stuff” I was taught by the Baptists. To me, it is more valid to hear a person who is a contemporary tell me what they believe as opposed to some document approved by the organization of the Church or some book written 2000 years ago. I don’t dispute that longevity and acceptance by many cultures adds credence to the Bible and other texts, I am just asking what the modern Catholic believes and feels, in essence.

I believe the CC is more “valid” because I believe it has an unbroken line of apostolic succession leading back to St. Peter, who Christ founded this Church on. I don’t believe that Baptists have that. But without referencing anything else, I can’t really give you any proof of that. And again, you can’t divorce the teachings of the CC from the people of the Church. So it’s erroneous to ask a Catholic to explain Catholic beliefs without using Catholic doctrine. We’re a religion that emphasizes Tradition.

The Baptists call you “fish eaters” and think that you all sin during the week and are absolved in confession on Sunday and are free to sin with a fresh slate the following Monday.

LOL, well, they seem to forget that confession is only licit if we’re truly sorry and sincerely mean not to sin again. And what’s wrong with fish? Seared salmon, mmm…

 

[Parrot]

I know you said you don’t want to read anything else - but only talk to “common people” but here’s a good book written by a common guy who was an atheist.

Come now. I am conversing with you all because you at least believe in God. I would not spend a dime nor even speak to an Atheist on such a subject. I reject the Bible as valid reference (in this conversation) do you seriously think I will turn around and accept what some Atheist wrote!

I also want to say that I am almost shocked at some of the comments that not only purport that Jesus is a part of God via the idea of the Holy Trinity, but that some of you pray only to Jesus and that seems like you believe in Jesus (a human, remember) and ignore God and have nothing to do with Him.

I can see even the Pope as being the leader of the Church on this planet but I would never insult God by praying to the Pope. Why do you ignore and insult God by praying to the human Jesus?

Keep in mind (and I know I will regret this statement but here it is for the sake of truth) some of what I write is meant more in the intention of “devil’s advocate.” I am not truly advocating the Devil here I use the term in the common sense of asking questions and posing ideas to see what you actually believe whether I believe the idea or not.

I have stated I believe in God. By my own logic, then it might be assumed I therefore believe in Jesus if He was a part of God, but I refuse to blindly believe that when Jesus has only caused me pain through the beliefs of the Baptists while God helps me every day. To me, that is more significant than any written. Jesus may have been reported to have done miracles 2000 years ago but it is God who performs such miracles on almost a daily basis in my life.