Why only Jesus?

[Parrot]

yes on the homepage, left hand column one topic is salvation,

Thanks. I did eventually find it. Someone forgot to mention they had referred to the home page of the Catholic Answers website instead of the forums home page. Look above and you will see that there are two “Home” buttons. The result is vastly different. Yesterday, I had no idea there was anything but his forum’s home page.

it took a while to answer because I could not find this thread in apologetics, where it belongs.

I disagree. I may not have found the complete structure of this website but I **have **read the rules and the ideas for each forum section. It seems that the apologetics section is all but useless. It only answers questions important to many and there is no discussion there. Since everyone in the Catholic Church believes in Jesus as God, I am sure the apologists would not feel it valid to respond to any opposing viewpoint to that idea. I ain’t stupid yanno?

this is one of the most frequently discussed topics here so a search in the apologetics forum under salvation, EENS, baptism or similar key words will be very beneficial

Again I disagree. The apologetics forum is nothing more than a sermon in my opinion.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

I also want to say that I am almost shocked at some of the comments that not only purport that Jesus is a part of God via the idea of the Holy Trinity, but that some of you pray only to Jesus and that seems like you believe in Jesus (a human, remember) and ignore God and have nothing to do with Him.

Ah yes, even Jesus’ contemporaries said he would be the stumbling block for believers. It is a hard thing to come to terms with, I agree.

St Augustine came upon a boy dipping a sea shell in the ocean. He asked the boy what he was doing. The boy answered “I am trying to empty the ocean with this sea shell.” St Augustine said “It is impossible to empty the ocean with a sea shell.” The boy replied “It would be easier for me to empty the ocean with this sea shell than for you to understand the Holy Trinity!”

How can we hope to completely understand God? We only have our small world to look at and compare Him to. Imagine the bacteria in your stomach trying to understand this conversation we are having over the internet. We are much closer to the bacteria in our stomachs than we are to the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

Catholics not only pray to Jesus the Son and God the Father, but to the Holy Spirit. Please look to our Creed for our core beliefs.

For the record, you are a child of God, as am I. Since we share the same Father we are Brothers

 

[carol_marie]

Come now. I am conversing with you all because you at least believe in God. I would not spend a dime nor even speak to an Atheist on such a subject. I reject the Bible as valid reference (in this conversation) do you seriously think I will turn around and accept what some Atheist wrote!

quote]

I’m sorry that I wasn’t clear… the book I suggested was written by a person who WAS an atheist. He was an investigative reporter and he wanted to prove that Jesus was not who people claimed him to be - basically that all of Christianity is based on a pack of lies. So he started researching and the evidence he discovered was so complelling, he became a Christian. So he’s an atheist turned Christian.

Since you also struggle with Jesus, I thought the book might help.

 

[Parrot]

…You can’t prove that the bible is the word of God anymore than you can disprove that the bible is the word of God. …

May God bless you, Cherry. I love the way you think and express yourself. This is the sort of reasoning I am seeking. The statement above makes tremendous sense somehow for me. You tell me what you believe and why you believe it without beating me over the head with the Bible or the Catechism.

I believe the CC is more “valid” because I believe it has an unbroken line of apostolic succession leading back to St. Peter, who Christ founded this Church on. I don’t believe that Baptists have that. …We’re a religion that emphasizes Tradition.

Again an excellent point. I did not know that. I know the Protestants which includes the Baptists broke away from the CC but I did not know there was a direct lineage to St. Peter. I have never read the entire Bible but as many, I never bothered to get all the way through that horrible lineage somewhere that lists all the names. Who’d believe that was an accurate record anyway? Even modern computers might mess up in such a database of information.

LOL, well, they seem to forget that confession is only licit if we’re truly sorry and sincerely mean not to sin again. And what’s wrong with fish? Seared salmon, mmm…

You know that and I know that but many Baptists would have you believe that Catholics and even Methodists will go to hell just for dancing and my God! - real wine in the communion?

Nothing wrong with fish in my book. Broiled Tilapia is almost as good as Salmon.

 

[mozart-250]

Parrot:
It sounds like you have had…umm…negative experiences…in a Baptist church. Oh well. Baptists are Christians, but not all Christians are Baptists. But anyway…

For the record I am not Catholic but do not have an axe to grind against Catholicism. If for some reason you feel some tug drawing you to the Catholic church, I am simple enough to believe that is something that God is doing.

I for one don’t have a good feel for where you exactly are at.

Since we all are Christian, the distinctives of Christianity concern Christ (d’uh that is why it is called Christ-ianity rather than Believe-in-God-ianity). So a couple of questions.

• Do you believe in a historic person known as Jesus Christ. (hint…his existence is verified by historical sources other than the Bible).
• Do you believe in a historic event known as the crucifixion of Christ?
• Do you believe in a historical (albeit miraculous) event known as the resurrection of Christ?

That’s enough for now

 

[Parrot]

How can we hope to completely understand God? We only have our small world to look at and compare Him to. Imagine the bacteria in your stomach trying to understand this conversation we are having over the internet. We are much closer to the bacteria in our stomachs than we are to the Creator of Heaven and Earth…For the record, you are a child of God, as am I. Since we share the same Father we are Brothers

I like the way you think too, Grateful. As for bacteria, they do not have any way to **think **at all, according to science but I understand your analogy. As for sentient beings, however, I believe it is possible to understand God. We humans are evolving all the time and what is currently thought by some to be off-the-wall mysticism is not really that far from faith in God. I can’t explain how God communicates to me but it happens. I am even willing to admit that the reason I have been guided to this forum may be God trying to convince me to believe in the whole package as it were. I freely admit that whereas this time in my life is frightening, it is at the same compelling. I have not felt this way since I was about seven years old and prayed that God would make me a preacher. That was a long time ago and God and I had many disputes over that and I was angry toward God for many years afterward.

Nowadays, I would not presume to have what it takes to be such a person and I DO, believe it or not, have high regard for people like Archbishop Gregory. No man achieves such recognition by being an idiot in **any **organization.

Speaking of organizations, did you all know that General Motors (and hence most of corporate America) is based on the organization of the Catholic Church? It was the best organization strategy anyone could imitate and has lasted well.

 

[Parrot]

Parrot:
It sounds like you have had…umm…negative experiences…in a Baptist church.

Yes, to say the least.

If for some reason you feel some tug drawing you to the Catholic church, I am simple enough to believe that is something that God is doing.

I agree.

• Do you believe in a historic person known as Jesus Christ. (hint…his existence is verified by historical sources other than the Bible).
• Do you believe in a historic event known as the crucifixion of Christ?
• Do you believe in a historical (albeit miraculous) event known as the resurrection of Christ?

Historical Jesus - yes.

The crucifixion - yes.

The resurrection - yes.

The only real problem I struggle with is whether or not one MUST go through Jesus to be in communication with Christ. I see Christ as a marvelous miracle meant to convey an idea of God but not as a replacement of God.

You see, I do not think there is anything wrong with belief in Jesus as a savior, only that those who do not believe it are doomed by all accounts I have been taught.

Take this as tongue in cheek… What if the people who believe in reincarnation (sorry, I don’t remember what religion that is) are right and Catholics arrive at the pearly gates only to find they got to go back and try again?

Great user name by the way. Mozart is my favorite composer. I once used the internet name of “Mozart 2” and some were outraged that I was purporting to be the second coming of Mozart. I was just the second person to choose the name there.

 

[mozart-250]

Historical Jesus - yes.

The crucifixion - yes.

The resurrection - yes.

Hmmm…you are further along than I initially thought.

The person of Christ, His crucifixion and His resurrection really are the central core of Christianity.

Now the life of this person, Jesus Christ is recorded in the four books commonly known as the Bible. There are four authors to these books…each initimately associated with Christ for three years of His ministry (ok–actually Luke used as sources those who were disciples of Christ).

In real life, we take as historically accurate any accounts of a person that are written with as much first hand knowledge as these apostels/disciples had. There is no reason to treat these gospels as any less historically accurate than we would parallel historical accounts we treat as accurate in other realms. If I were to suggest something, my suggestion would be to chuck whatever baggage you might have inhereited from your church history and look at these gospels and the account they give of this person Jesus from a totally fresh perspective.

You will find that Jesus claimed certain things about himself in these gospels (hint…He claimed He was God almighty). So therefore, there are a limited number of logical alternatives to these claims that I could believe that make sense.

• The authors of the gospels lied about the claims of Christ. Hmm…that means the authors of the gospels and the apostles met martyrdom for beliefs that they knew were bold faced lies. Not credible.
• Jesus was a liar or a lunatic. Hmm…Jesus rose from the dead. Not credible that a liar or lunatic would rise from the dead.
• Jesus was whom He claimed Himself to be.

I know you have intellectual issues with the exclusivity part of the Christian message. I did prior to becoming a Christian (and I still to albeit do a much lesser extent). The way that I resolved these issues was to table them for the time, sensing that my spiritual need was greater than my intellectual hang ups. When these hangups surface still, I resolve them by telling myself that first and foremost I trust in the character of Christ…which the Bible is clear is absolute in love, justice, mercy, righteousness…etc.

Good man…Mozart is my favorite composer. The 250 was selected because last year was his 250th birthday.

 

[Jaypeeto3]

I’ve got a funny feeling from reading the thread thus far, that this guy is just here to stir up an argument. I can tell by his tone.
SCBORROMEO is Saint Charles Borromeo and definitely not some pornographic website. The catechism there is OFFICIAL and AUTHORITATIVE Catholic doctrine. He balks at being referred to it. He is being ridiculous and obnoxious.

 

[kellie]

Parrot,

Are you truly trying to seek the Truth?

Jesus IS God. The reason we pray to Jesus is because He IS God.

If you don’t believe this, then the Catholic Church isn’t for you, as harsh as that seems.

And we WON’T say you will go to Hell if you don’t believe this, as we believe no one knows God’s decisions.

The Bible is True, and so is the Catechism.
We also have the writings of the Early Church Fathers. All 3 describe all that we believe.

We have 2000 years of oral traditions, and a direct line back to St Peter who was the first Pope.

The Catholic Church is NOT about what architecturally designed building is nice enough to sit in to pray to God.

We are the Church, the people. When two or more are gathered in His name, there is His church.

Seriously think about what you are searching for.

And do the reading that everyone has suggested. If you are truly to trying to seek the Truth, then the reading and praying will lead you to it.

 

[Parrot]

I’ve got a funny feeling from reading the thread thus far, that this guy is just here to stir up an argument. I can tell by his tone.
SCBORROMEO is Saint Charles Borromeo and definitely not some pornographic website. The catechism there is OFFICIAL and AUTHORITATIVE Catholic doctrine. He balks at being referred to it. He is being ridiculous and obnoxious.

Nope. I am not here to cause trouble. Trust me, if I wished to cause trouble I could do so. I have been on the internet for ages and I first “got on the internet” in 1967. It wasn’t called the internet then, but it worked the same. If I were really a bad guy I probably could bring this whole website down but I am not such a person.

I mention the history because I know what can and does happen on the web. If someone had directed me to the Vatican website to read the Catechism, I probably would have accepted it. I am sorry for the statement about pornographic websites but such things DO happen and the person who sent the link was not only unknown to me but was being very antagonistic at the time.

Don’t try to paint any of this with personal attacks. I am attacking no one, I am asking for help. I have been down a long and winding road for about 50 years on this topic. You cannot expect a person to just rollover and accept something based on flimsy references.

Keep also in mind that whereas most of the world may have heard of people like St. Patrick or St. Thomas Aquinas, or even St. Vincent De Paul, few ex Baptists would have heard of a St. Charles Borromeo. It would about as unproductive for me to explain something to you while just assuming you had heard of the intrinsic standoff ratio effect in semiconductors. If you a BSEE, then you at least understand the analogy?

BTW, the spell checker found all the other Saints but asked if “Borromeo” should be spelled “Borrower.”

 

[Parrot]

Jesus IS God. The reason we pray to Jesus is because He IS God.

If you don’t believe this, then the Catholic Church isn’t for you, as harsh as that seems.

The Catholic Church is NOT about what architecturally designed building is nice enough to sit in to pray to God.

We are the Church, the people. When two or more are gathered in His name, there is His church.

Seriously think about what you are searching for.

Gracious. A few people reply and almost convince me then again this evening I get accused of being a mean guy and then you come with the “Go away! We don’t want you if you are not already sure!”

Why are some of you so horrible? Is this the way you treat a new person who approaches your religion? Do you throw a Catechism book at them and say “Believe it or go to Hell!.”

Look at your statement above…

The reason we pray to Jesus is because he is God.

Can you not see that is nearly like saying “We pray to God because he is Jesus.”

 

[system]

There is only one way to be allowed into heaven…and that is to be perfect. If you are perfect, you may go to heaven…otherwise, we are not able to enter into heaven. This is not how it was intended to be, yet because of adam and eve’s dissobediance and our own as well, we are not able to be with a perfect God…unless, there is a way for our punishment to be taken away and for us to be basically bailed out.

Imagine, if you will, you have committed a crime and you are on trial and are expected to pay $1,000,000,000,000,000,000, otherwise you have to be put to death. A man comes in and sais that he will pay the $1,000,000,000,000,000,000 so that you can live. In the same way, Jesus has payed the penalty, or fine in this example, and all you have to do is accept it. There’s no other way you can get that money…even if you worked in the highest paying job in the world, you still couldn’t come up with that money. It is the same with our lives. We cannot pay the fine…we cannot be perfect, we just CANNOT DO IT! That is the beauty of Jesus. He came and he took the penalty, he payed for that fine…and all we have to do is let him pay for it.

Now, knowing this, how could anyone say that God doesn’t want us to be in heaven when he’s made it so easy!!! The only reason people go to hell is because they don’t want to take Jesus’ free gift!!! They spend the rest of their lives trying to pay off this fine, and they never do it, and then by the next hearing…it’s too late…they’ve past the deadline, and they must be put to death…they have to go to hell…it’s a sad thing, but it’s not how God wants it to be.

Please, realize that Jesus has come to save the world, not condemn it. All he wants is for people to accept his gift. We don’t even have to DO anything. It is a gift and he gives it because He loves us, and wants us to be with Him, even though we don’t deserve to be. How amazing? I beg you, i plead you to hear me on this, because by not accepting this gift, you have no hopes of paying for your sins, and you will not be able to be with a perfect God.

This is not to discourage you, but to lighten the load. We don’t have to do anything. Friends, I love you, and even though I do not know you, I want more than anything for you to be in heaven…just stop trying to do it on your own…don’t think there’s another way…just take the free gift. Please!!! Take it before it’s too late!!!

I love you, and He loves you
Chase Arrington
(469) 446 3060
chase3308@gmail.com

911 Kessler Parkway
Dallas, TX 75208

 

[dmelosi]

This is a very silly statement. I have been in Atlanta the last 2 weeks, about a week a month for the last 2 years. Attend mass here about once a month. No reason for you to be racists here as well.

Excellent point.

You are most kind but remember, this is Atlanta and I am not a “brother” I am a “cousin”… I doubt an Archbishop would speak to a person who is a nobody anyway and particularly not a White person in this city.

 

[Parrot]

The Catholic Church is NOT about what architecturally designed building is nice enough to sit in to pray to God.

I had to think about this comment. This afternoon, I drove around looking at different Catholic Churches in my area and then came home and went to their websites.

I have to admit that it DID make a big difference to me. One was Byzantine and I had to research what that meant. Eastern??? I don’t think so. I would have little in common with Asian parishioners I think.

Another was the closest but it had Mass in English and a separate one in Spanish. (I live in a predominately Spanish neighborhood.) No habla Espanol, so not for me. The third was worse, their website was in Spanish with English subtitles.

I don’t think I am a bigot, I just feel more comfortable with people who are more like me. I guess it is because I am like a bird and wish to flock with the same feather as it were. Why hang around some place where you know right off you will be an outsider to the group?

I then found St. Brigid’s. Look it up if you wish to see. It is huge. The inside really looks like what I call a church. I found it also nice that St. Brigid (well you are Catholic so you know, right?) is an Irish saint and I am a quarter American Indian and three quarters Irish. What better place?

For those of you who are reading this and find it disgusting, remember, it was otherwise a great waste of time and talent to have the Sistine Chapel’s ceiling painted if the look of the place didn’t matter.

I also wanted to comment on that old saw about “where two are gathered…” I always thought that was silly and illogical. It can be discerned by the average ten year old that if God is omnipresent, then it wouldn’t take two people to be thinking about him for him to show up.

 

[Parrot]

I have been in Atlanta the last 2 weeks, about a week a month for the last 2 years. Attend mass here about once a month. No reason for you to be racists here as well.

I have lived in Atlanta continuously for the last 37 years. I know what I am talking about but you are right… to discuss racial tensions is inappropriate so lets leave it, shall we?

 

[CherryBomb]

I took St. Brigid as my confirmation name

I know the Protestants which includes the Baptists broke away from the CC but I did not know there was a direct lineage to St. Peter. I have never read the entire Bible but as many, I never bothered to get all the way through that horrible lineage somewhere that lists all the names. Who’d believe that was an accurate record anyway? Even modern computers might mess up in such a database of information.

Well, this is another area where it gets trickier. There’s plenty of resources on papal succession, but who do you believe? Since I believe the Church is who she says she is and all, I trust that’s she’s correct. But if you’re not sure who’s who…well it can get messy. None of it would be in the Bible though, other than Jesus appointing Peter as the first Pope

I don’t think I am a bigot, I just feel more comfortable with people who are more like me. I guess it is because I am like a bird and wish to flock with the same feather as it were. Why hang around some place where you know right off you will be an outsider to the group?

Maybe this is another stumbling block from your Baptist upbringing? The church is Catholic, which means universal. All Catholics are brothers and sisters, no matter what we look like. I can empathize to an extent, though. My husband is heavily tattooed, and I have visible tattoos as well (though only a couple!), plus we’re fairly young, so I was very concerned about feeling like an outsider. Thankfully our parish has been nothing but warm, open, and loving to us! We might not look like everyone else, but we belong. What unites us isn’t what’s on the outside, it’s our faith in God (as cheesy as that might sound!) There’s a reason we begin the Nicene Creed with “WE believe.” Unity and catholicity are very important to the Church. More generally, of course, all human beings are children of God.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being drawn to a church in part for it’s beauty. That beauty is there to glorify God. But the substance is what should really draw and nourish you. I remember reading of masses being celebrated in secret in concentration camps in WWII (yes, Hitler executed Catholics, too). The surroundings might have been horrific, but the essence was still beautiful. Christ was still present (the smuggled Host having been consecrated by an imprisoned priest).

 

[CherryBomb]

And what’s with the random Born-Again evangelization up there?

 

[Parrot]

I took St. Brigid as my confirmation name

It’s a sign!

Maybe this is another stumbling block from your Baptist upbringing? The church is Catholic, which means universal. All Catholics are brothers and sisters, no matter what we look like.

I realize some things I say seem to be prejudicial but that is not really what I am about. I am just not afraid to say what I think. To me, (as example only, please understand) if I rejected the friendship of a person because they had tattoos, then that is prejudice and wrong. On the other hand, if i rejected the friendship of a person for other reasons and they just happened to have tattoos and got it in their mind the reason was because of the tattoos, then it looks like prejudice but isn’t. In the latter case, the problem is with the other person because they are assuming things based on some lack of self esteem over which I have no control.

You can insert any race, culture, or other attribute in the place of “tattoo” in those statements and it means the same.

I like you, Cherry, based on what you have written in this forum and I would not care what your age, race, color, gender or appearance is. On the other hand, I would not dislike you for those reasons. One of the things I like about the internet is that it affords the opportunity to communicate without knowing some of the particulars that normally separate people these days. But again, that subject is a bit off topic.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being drawn to a church in part for it’s beauty. That beauty is there to glorify God. But the substance is what should really draw and nourish you. I remember reading of masses being celebrated in secret in concentration camps in WWII (yes, Hitler executed Catholics, too). The surroundings might have been horrific, but the essence was still beautiful. Christ was still present (the smuggled Host having been consecrated by an imprisoned priest).

I should clarify that idea as well in terms of what I meant. I also think the beauty of a church is a valid thing but there is nothing wrong with worship in a less than grand place. It is a matter of choice. Call it secular on my part, but a huge church with pipe organ and stained glass windows is the ideal place to worship. Considering the money spent on churches all over the world and throughout history, I’d say there are many people who agree with that notion.

I am and have always been big on pomp and circumstance (the idea, not only the tune). I played in the school orchestra, for example, when the world was going nuts over the new “stereo” home music system. I don’t care how wonderful your sound system is or how great the concert hall is, there is absolutely nothing to compare with how music sounds when you are sitting in the middle of the orchestra and listening with your bare ears. Same thing applies to hearing a pipe organ when you are in the choir and right next to the pipes.

This relates to the differences between the usual Baptist church compared to the average Catholic Church building. Baptists lean too heavily on the “when two are gathered” idea sometimes and the result is some Baptist churches are places that you wouldn’t patronize if it were a restaurant and would never rent a room in the building if it were a hotel.

Anyway. Perhaps we should start a new thread on **that **subject if isn’t already in existence?

You are correct regarding Hitler. The killing of Jews gets more attention, but the real fact is that Hitler killed anyone who was not his ideal German. That included a bunch of different people.

 

[Parrot]

And what’s with the random Born-Again evangelization up there?

Yes. I reported that and I caution everyone to not respond to the personal information given. Many times people will post such things and give out the name and addresses and phone numbers of someone they hate, so it is uncertain that the contact info is even legitimate.