Why Organized Religion is a Problematic Way to Grow Closer to God.

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at_peace said:
My feeling is that the message of Jesus has been distorted over and over again to serve the career aspirations of various Christian leaders over the centuries. The corruption of Christian institutions by this inherent human tendency is problematic for many people, including myself.

I can better serve Christ outside of the Church. I see many good people who do this. Many people tire of the constant political machinations they encounter in church parishes and congregations, be they Catholic or Protestant.
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Again if you dont mind me asking, How can you better serve Christ outside his Church. Wouldnt be going outside his church be breaking one of his commandments?
 
at_peace said:
My feeling is that the message of Jesus has been distorted over and over again to serve the career aspirations of various Christian leaders over the centuries. The corruption of Christian institutions by this inherent human tendency is problematic for many people, including myself.

I can better serve Christ outside of the Church. I see many good people who do this. Many people tire of the constant political machinations they encounter in church parishes and congregations, be they Catholic or Protestant.
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why do you care about these things in the first place at peace?am asking because these same institutions have plenty of saints despite the corruption of some…you see, 12 aposles, 1 traitor.
 
mercygate said:
The difference is that we do have certain passages that – because of the excruciating theological exigencies – must be understood in one certain way by Catholics. Y’know: “This IS my body.” or "Thou art Peter . . "

But even those passages may be taken in a personal way by Catholics, as long as we understand the dogmatic meaning. For example, we are encouraged, when the priest says the words of institution: “This is my body” to place our own bodies, devotionally, upon the paten in union with our Lord’s sacrifice . . . For a Catholic to claim that “This is my body” means ONLY that mercygate’s body is offered in the Mass would be heretical (not to mention unspeakably stupid).

The caution against private interpretation applies only to interpretations that contradict the deposit of faith. Surely you have similar caveats in your tradition? Even “sola Scriptura” people hedge their exegesis with certain guidelines (except the rabid me-and-Jesus-and-the-Book types).
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Yes, absolutely. Which is the dividing line between the Reformation (and our contention, early church) of Sola Scriptura, and the modern evangelical doctrine of Solo Scriptura.

If only this was clearly said in apologetic discussions, debates, etc. It usually, is not, however. The me-Jesus-and-my-Bible crowd that you rightly criticized are lumped in with every other non-Catholic without a clear statement of what we believe.
 
at_peace said:
Jesus said the Sabbath should serve man. As far as keeping the Sabbath Holy, most Catholics do not observe a strict Sabbath, but make a beeline to their cars to rush out to the Mall afterwards.
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Please explain that…the part about Christ saying the Sabbath should serve man… (I think you may have taken that out of context)

Skip the part about beelines to the mall… the comment was rather “trite”, and my response would be were I to actually make it… might be, “as if Catholics were any different than anyone else?” But I won’t say that…ok? 😃
 
at_peace said:
My new religion? I remain a baptized Christian who is not a part of any congregation. I recently decided to stop attending Mass based on the arguments I discussed in my opening post.
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At Peace, I have to disagree with the entire premise of your argument. Jesus created a community, an ekklesia***** * of Christians. Worship, the sacraments, and fellowship among this community was central to the faith and still is. You say you’re baptized; that’s super but it required someone to baptize you with the trinitarian formula. You can’t stay at home in your living room and be your own sacraments, your own confessor/penitent, your own priest at a wedding, your own consecrator of the Eucharist, and live in a vaccum.

Christianity is about community and common worship. Are you correct about corruption? HECK YEAH! The Catholic Church is rife with corruption now and always has been. In the Middle Ages it reeked of crooked, grafty, greedy, opportunistic dirt bags, some popes included. But if you subscribe to the notion that anything organized is not worth being a part of or is inherently to be rejected, you’ll hate:

This country
Any religion
Sports
Schools
Your state
and just about every other thing in this world.

The U.S. began by breaking off from the United Kingdom. Do we have a lot of corruption in this country at all levels of gov’t? Yep. Should we all create anarchy? No.

Christ did not create a religion to be lived out like a hermit free of community, leadership, and organization. Acts of the Apostles, Paul’s epistles, and the Lord Himself details nicely the church and it’s being quite organized.

Were it not for the organization of the Church, we’d never have resolved heresies or simple disagreements about the nature of God, the Trinity, etc.

I understand your frustration with bureaucracy, red tape, a feeling that your leaders are elitist and out of touch, etc. That’s normal. Sometimes I feel that my parish is horrific when it comes to calling me back on the phone, emailing me back, giving me an answer, helping out, etc. The Catholic Church can be very dysfunctional due to its size. But don’t give up on her. At least at the bare minimum join a protestant church or something where you don’t do a do-it-yourself home Christianity kit.
 
at peace -

I wish you much joy, peace & enlightenment as you travel your spiritual journey.
I know that Jesus walks with all of us; He is not bounded by “Organized Religion”

Thomas Merton describes this journey so very well

“My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end. Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so. But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road, though I may know nothing about it. Therefore, I will trust you always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death. I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone.” – Thoughts in Solitude

Go with Love, Go with God
 
at peace, I’ll start off by saying I respect your decision, as it is indeed pointless to be a part of something you don’t believe in.

As a new Catholic (baptized this past March) I agree with what you call the bureaucracy as being daunting. And, it is factual that the iron law of oligarchy sets into any human organization. Even the most ardent socialist society that started out with idealistic notions of not letting this happen, eventually faces this dilemma. (It is a primary failure of every socialist endeavor.)

What I find rather incredible in all that, in regards to the Roman Catholic Church, is that God prevails. There were times where it seems that He has not, I don’t think anyone would deny this. But, if you’ll forgive the analogy, it is like looking at a graph of how the stock market is doing. Ups and downs but over time, if you stick it out, the general trend is up. If you pull out in a down time, you’ll see that later on, you should have stuck it out. Regrets ensue.

The RCC teaches that the Church is both human, and divine, I can see this and agree with it. The human aspect can be described in many failures, but also astounding successes, the divine aspect is God. If I didn’t believe this were the case I would not be Catholic. I look for perfection not in humans, as I know for a fact I will never find it there (including myself), but in God. I agree 100% that your focus should be God!

The thing is, as a former atheist, and someone who thought very much as you do, that organized religion is, at the best, the pits,there is something more than what I or you can come up with. I mean, what parts of RC are you going to throw away and which parts are you going to keep and why? Are you now the arbitrary one person organized religion of yourself? How are you going to know when you err…and I can tell you from many experiences…to err is our tendency and seldom do we see that we are while it is happening.

To the point of following Jesus: A friend once told me that there is only one reason to be a Christian, and that is Jesus Christ. And there is only one reason to be a Catholic, and that is the Sacraments, as Christ instituted them. And a huge bonus is the Communion of Saints.

That is simplified, no doubt, compared to the organizational aspect of the RC, but in the essence of what it means to be a RC, I believe that is about as precise and simple as it comes.

So my approach has been, I am a Christian, I need the Sacraments of the Catholic Church, and I keep myself focused on that. I couldn’t tell you what in the world it means to “be Catholic”, other than that.

To the point of parish level politics: I see the same aspects you are describing. People sort of horde the comfortable spot they have found and can be reluctant to change, even when you can see quite clearly that there can be changes made for the better. “This is how we have always done it” are the sacred cows of any organization, religious or not.

This is human nature, and though it is a frustrating aspect of any organization (no matter how large or small), it isn’t something that you should be defeated by. Recognize it for what it is, there is no need to pretend that it isn’t there, and either work to charitably change it, or find something else within the structure of the Church that satisfies what you are looking for. The Church is HUGE in its need.

As for your statement that this is what the Catholic Church has “become”, I would say it is something that has been fought since St. Paul was writing the Corinthians and admonishing them to listen to their bishops and stop fighting among themselves. It was, in essence, the exact same thing you are finding as your reason for leaving.

That turned out much longer than I intended, and I hope you take it as I meant it, as understanding where you are and giving you a few alternatives to your thoughts.

Rebecca
 
I agree with the last post.

AtPeace, I see where you are coming from, there is a lot of corruption in Christian churches. (but more on the Evangelical side, I believe, that with the Catholics). I also understand, that you want to live a good life, following the teachings of Jesus. I feel it would be hard to do that without the Church. Even though I just praise God once a week with other people in Mass, I am reinforced by those prayers and communion, and it carries me through the week. Of course, I pray during the week alone too.

Also, the Catholic church really doesn’t demand much from it’s members. It’s all up to you how much you want to be involved in the bureaucratic end of it.

But I applaud you for wanting to follow Jesus. That is a beautiful thing to do.
 
RebeccaJ said:
at peace, I’ll start off by saying I respect your decision, as it is indeed pointless to be a part of something you don’t believe in.

As a new Catholic (baptized this past March) I agree with what you call the bureaucracy as being daunting. And, it is factual that the iron law of oligarchy sets into any human organization. Even the most ardent socialist society eventually faces this dilemma. (It is a primary failure of every socialist endeavor.)

What I find rather incredible in all that, in regards to the Roman Catholic Church, is that God prevails. There were times where it seems that He has not, I don’t think anyone would deny this. But, if you’ll forgive the analogy, it is like looking at a graph of how the stock market is doing. Ups and downs but over time, if you stick it out, the general trend is up. If you pull out in a down time, you’ll see that later on, you should have stuck it out. Regrets ensue.

The RCC teaches that the Church is both human, and divine, I can see this and agree with it. The human aspect can be described in many failures, but also astounding successes, the divine aspect is God. If I didn’t believe this were the case I would not be Catholic. I look for perfection not in humans, as I know for a fact I will never find it there (including myself), but in God. I agree 100% that your focus should be God!

The thing is, as a former atheist, and someone who thought very much as you do, that organized religion is, at the best, the pits,there is something more than what I or you can come up with. I mean, what parts of RC are you going to throw away and which parts are you going to keep and why? Are you now the arbitrary one person organized religion of yourself? How are you going to know when you err…and I can tell you from many experiences…to err is our tendency and seldom do we see that we are while it is happening.

To the point of following Jesus: A friend once told me that there is only one reason to be a Christian, and that is Jesus Christ. And there is only one reason to be a Catholic, and that is the Sacraments, as Christ instituted them. And a huge bonus is the Communion of Saints.

That is simplified, no doubt, compared to the organizational aspect of the RC, but in the essence of what it means to be a RC, I believe that is about as precise and simple as it comes.

So my approach has been, I am a Christian, I need the Sacraments of the Catholic Church, and I keep myself focused on that. I couldn’t tell you what in the world it means to “be Catholic”, other than that.

To the point of parish level politics: I see the same aspects you are describing. People sort of horde the comfortable spot they have found and can be reluctant to change, even when you can see quite clearly that there can be changes made for the better. “This is how we have always done it” are the sacred cows of any organization, religious or not.

This is human nature, and though it is a frustrating aspect of any organization (no matter how large or small), it isn’t something that you should be defeated by. Recognize it for what it is, there is no need to pretend that it isn’t there, and either work to charitably change it, or find something else within the structure of the Church that satisfies what you are looking for. The Church is HUGE in its need.

As for your statement that this is what the Catholic Church has “become”, I would say it is something that has been fought since St. Paul was writing the Corinthians and admonishing them to listen to their bishops and stop fighting among themselves. It was, in essence, the exact same thing you are finding as your reason for leaving.

That turned out much longer than I intended, and I hope you take it as I meant it, as understanding where you are and giving you a few alternatives to your thoughts.

Rebecca
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Beautiful post!!!👍
 
TriuneUnity said:
That may be the case, certainly. However, if the Church is the final arbiter, and yet doesn’t have the supposed charism of infallibility (being that only applies to ecumenical councils and ex cathedra statements)… the Church is giving you its educated interpretation. Which is great and I would argue in most instances that interpretation will probably be better than yours or mine. However, that is not much different than when I go to my own pastor to answer a question I have about scriptural interpretation.
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Oooh, I have the feeling I’m trying to maintain my footing on a slippery slope!!😃

In reality, and in all honesty… I have to agree.
I don’t know about that. I have seen some pretty loony interpretations by priests (have you read Andrew Greeley? LoL). All in all though, yes, they’re probably more educated.
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No, I can’t say that I have… and yes to the second…we agree.
So, really, aren’t your ideas on scriptural interpretation not all that different from mine, other than the hiccup of an infallible church on 10 verses or so of Scripture?
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I think to the extent I think you are putting it… I would have to lean toward agreeing with you, but will hold tightly to the caveat that I have a problem with “private interpretation” in the context that one does it without any guidance whatsoever from a a higher authority. And I think you know what I am pointing at… 😉
 
RobHom said:
I think to the extent I think you are putting it… I would have to lean toward agreeing with you, but will hold tightly to the caveat that I have a problem with “private interpretation” in the context that one does it without any guidance whatsoever from a a higher authority. And I think you know what I am pointing at… 😉
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I would agree with who you’re pointing at.

Our tradition (as well as Anglicans and the Reformed) intepret scripture in light of the Church, and the continuity of church teaching, and also within the bounds of the regula fidei (the ecumenical creeds and confessions of our respective traditions). That is the doctrine that Luther espoused (Calvin as well). And we believe the method that was used by the earliest fathers of the church. This is Sola Scriptura.
 
Organized religion, the organization/buracracy part is not really about growing in spirituality, it’s about organizing and providing service and information to many people.

Its the spiritual practices within a religion, organized or otherwise that assist people in growing in spirituality, and they get results.

There is nothing inherent about organized religion that keeps people from growing spiritually, if they want to.
 
As to ‘organized religion’ -

Religion expresses, often, as deeply held views - on the nature
of God, and God’s relationship with human beings, or sometimes
as a non-theistic world view.

Often, the basis - of deeply held religious views, are to be found in:

-scriptures
-commentaries on same
-doctrines based on scriptures
-oral traditions

Accompanying the above, may often be found:

-a hierarchical clergy

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi…Dalai_Lama.jpg

-modes of worship
-chanting parts of holy texts

mtnguide.com/images/programs/Chanting_monks.jpg

-rituals for divine forgiveness
-rituals for communing with deity
-catechisms
-religious schooling
-devotions
-rosaries
-prayer beads
-prayer wheels
-candles
-shrines
-pilgrimages
-fasting
-prayer methods
-retreats
-texts on mysticism
-religious orders

These expressions go far back into time.
According to Judeo-Christian scriptures,
God indicated the precise design of the
dress of the High Priest.

templesanjose.org/JudaismInfo/history/kohen_files/image004.jpg

papal vestments:

humanrightsfoundation.org/images/pope_benedict.jpg

Religion gives structure - to the expressions of a given faith.
Religion provides a vehicle for the exterior expressions of belief,
and guidance in the life of prayer and/or devotional life.

reen12
 
at_peace said:
I think my biggest reason for ceasing my involvement with the Catholic Church, and my reluctance to join any other, is that organized religion inevitably is a flawed system of spiritual progress.

People involved in churches and church organisations always succumb to the ordinary evils of bureaurocracy. They hold positions of power that is in their personal self interest to protect. They do this in usual ways, such as squelching their opposition, securing their power base, creating political alliances.

Of course, the Catholic Church, with it’s size and hierarchy, has one of the most strongly established traditions of political intrigue that permeates the culture of its institutions.

Many current religions, including Chrisitianity and its varying sects, originally sprang up in opposition to the organized religion of the day. Buddhaism arose out the corruption of Hinduism, Christianity out of that of the Jews, Protestantism was a response to the failings of the Catholic Church, and some of the newer forms of Chrisitanity sprang from stagnant Mainline Protestant Churches.

All religions form around a strong leader and wants to aspire to form a community that adheres to its founding ideals. They inevitably, though, succumb to the same failures and corruptions across the board, losing their founding ideals and becoming just another manmade bureaurocracy mainly interested in maintaining itsself, even at the expense of truly serving God.
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While I cannot argue with you regarding the dangers of the institutions, I think the greater danger is that of individual self-satisfaction. The thinnking that, just because you perform some minimum requirement in ones faith setting that they are automatically good to go to heaven. I see that all too often in people of many different sects. The attitude is, “I do what the Church says I have to, I go on Sundays, I contribute (a little), I might even go to confession once a year, What else do they want?”

On the other hand a person (whether in a church or not) who truly seeks God’s will in their life will likely be rewarded. The only problem with this appoach is the lack of structure and discipline which both have their place and use. In addition there is a lack of fellowship that is also useful on the spiritual Journey.

I’ve done both. I prefer being in the Church.

Peace
James
 
at_peace said:
Seeking God as a sincere individual and attempting to live **correctly **is a **worthy **path, in my opinion.
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depending on how you define a couple of terms there is quite a bit of divergence that can come.

How do you define what is ‘correct living’?
How do you define what is a ‘worthy path’?
What is truth? Is God’s truth subjective?

Cheers!

michel
 
at_peace said:
Thanks for making my point on that so succienctly and clearly.

And, it’s the points that the Catholic Church HAS infallably declared itsself that are problematic for me. Some of them appear to be merely to maintain the Catholic claim to it’s exclusive right to call itsself “The One True Church” and perpetuate its bureaurocratic hold. Examples would be declarations regarding the Papacy being the Chair of Peter, claims that only the Catholic Eucharist is valid, claims that oral tradition dictates that a priest must be part of an unbroken line of succession.

Things like that aren’t really important to me, my spiritual growth as a Christian, but they are central to Catholic triumphantalism.
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When in doubt go here

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/4mrkc.html
 
cazayoux said:
depending on how you define a couple of terms there is quite a bit of divergence that can come.

How do you define what is ‘correct living’?
How do you define what is a ‘worthy path’?
What is truth? Is God’s truth subjective?

Cheers!

michel
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Even within the Catholic Church there is a divergence of opinions on correct living. The Catechism does hedge on some things. But, most Christian sects agree on traditional morality of living, such as working hard for ones own honest living, taking care of the weak and powerless, causing no harm, being sexually chaste, not over indulging in food or drink, respecting elders and parents. Basically, the 10 commandments remain good rules of living.
 
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