Why "practice" religion?

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jmcrae said:
Actually, I’m talking about the eight men who wrote the books of the New Testament. Seven of those eight went to their deaths at the hands of the torturers, rather than say that anything they had written was fictional. They said, “we wrote only what we saw.”

St. John died of old age on the island of Patmos, in exile, because the Emperor was terrified of him. He went into exile in his old age rather than say that anything he had written in his Gospels was in any way false.

Obviously, if I am told something but didn’t witness it, I might believe it and die for it, even if it isn’t really true. But those who actually witnessed it, also died for it.

(By contrast, none of the original Protestant Reformers ever died for their new religions, but only their second-generation followers. Mohammed, also, died in comfortable old age; he took no risks nor made any sacrifices for his new religion.)

Did they have first-hand evidence of the religions that they practiced, or were they next-generation believers?

In the case of next-generation believers, this is certainly a possibility. But when the first-hand witnesses are also dying for it, then you have to think that there is something to it.
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Thank you. I will consider these points as I study.
 
PathDiagnosis said:
These events can be explained without God. Joan of Arc had a great cause and the French wanted to be free. Then , her charisma helped her gain popularity, etc. I could be wrong, it may have been God.

The whole Guadalupe incident allowed Christianity to thrive. People were attracted to the miracle. A skeptic like me would think the miracle was a clever hoax, but I will look into it.
Christianity was favorable at the time (natural selection) because everyone was tired of being taken on top of Aztec pyramids, having their hearts cut out, and thrown down the steps. Voila. I could be wrong, it may have been God. *** Then Protestants might think the miracle was really a vision of Satan in disguise, etc.***
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The French did want to be free. But their attempts had been failures. If you look closely into the article on St. Joan of Arc, you’ll see that she had a vision of St. Margaret, the angel Michael and St. Catherine. Without that vision, she would not have embarked on her mission from God. Every step of the way, from Orleans to Paris she praised God. And need I mention at the hostility Joan was met with at the beginning of her journey? They all thought she was a lunatic from nowhere. It wasn’t until after she started winning her fights that she all started thinking there was something special about her. You must agree that, (looking at her through an atheist’s eyes) she was just a lunatic who got lucky. But to a Catholic, that is an inspiration, and the will of God. I do recommend you take a look at the Trials of Joan. She only waged war for three years, was usually on the battlefield and barely had time to read books; 'cause she was mostly praying. She had no understanding of Traditional Law, or Common Law or any kind of Law. Yet she defended herself perfectly during her final days. This is not the training a commoner gets; or a little girl, for that matter (As women were usually either in convents or married and taking care of their families; but this belongs in a new thread).

Have you been to Mexico? Have you studied that history? Aztecs were not tired of being sacrifices, they enjoyed it and had created an entire myth around it. That if they didn’t sacrifice, the sun wouldn’t go up and the world would be destroyed. The efforts of missionaries rarely worked, until Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared. Then it started spreading. Seems too much like a coincidence to be faked. And Protestants will always say the church is wrong about one thing or another. That’s not the point of this discussion.

-MontChevalier
 
MontChevalier said:
The French did want to be free. But their attempts had been failures. If you look closely into the article on St. Joan of Arc, you’ll see that she had a vision of St. Margaret, the angel Michael and St. Catherine. Without that vision, she would not have embarked on her mission from God. Every step of the way, from Orleans to Paris she praised God. And need I mention at the hostility Joan was met with at the beginning of her journey? They all thought she was a lunatic from nowhere. It wasn’t until after she started winning her fights that she all started thinking there was something special about her. You must agree that, (looking at her through an atheist’s eyes) she was just a lunatic who got lucky. But to a Catholic, that is an inspiration, and the will of God. I do recommend you take a look at the Trials of Joan. She only waged war for three years, was usually on the battlefield and barely had time to read books; 'cause she was mostly praying. She had no understanding of Traditional Law, or Common Law or any kind of Law. Yet she defended herself perfectly during her final days. This is not the training a commoner gets; or a little girl, for that matter (As women were usually either in convents or married and taking care of their families; but this belongs in a new thread).

Have you been to Mexico? Have you studied that history? Aztecs were not tired of being sacrifices, they enjoyed it and had created an entire myth around it. That if they didn’t sacrifice, the sun wouldn’t go up and the world would be destroyed. The efforts of missionaries rarely worked, until Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared. Then it started spreading. Seems too much like a coincidence to be faked. And Protestants will always say the church is wrong about one thing or another. That’s not the point of this discussion.

-MontChevalier
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Thank you, I will look into both of these events, or collection of events to be more accurate. I didn’t mean to state the French wanted to be free or the Aztecs hated being sacrificed as facts but rather as possibilities. Aztec civilization and thus its religion could have collapsed because the whole sacrifice thing wasted resources, etc. I will consider everything you suggested.

Thanks.
 
PathDiagnosis said:
Hello,

I am not here to start a flame war. I would like to know why some of you need to practice religion Even if there is a God, why do you need a relationship with him/her/it? Did it ever occur to you that you are Catholic or some other sort of Christian because you were born into it, or born into a relative state of luxury that allowed you to research Church history, etc?
**
Background on me:**

Former Catholic convert from Protestantism. I feel like I know much about Catholicism, or as much as possible. I am well versed with works by Scott Hahn, Catholic Answers, etc. I am familiar with early Church history: the Didache, Pliny the Younger, Ignatius , Polycarp, etc. I admire the historical continuity of the Catholic Church, objection to Sola Scriptura, etc.

In a Universe in which the Christian God is true and Christianity is true, I would ONLY be Catholic. Frankly, from a secular viewpoint, I believe Protestantism is in serious error. If Christ is truly God, the CATHOLIC CHURCH (and ~Orthodox) is the HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC ONE CHURCH.

Not that works matter much to Christ, but here is a picture of the type of Catholic I was:
*Preferred Tridentine Latin Mass, was member of FSSP parish.
*Prayed rosary
*Confession about once a month
*Wore fivefold scapular
Interested in learning from practitioners of religion. Basically, can you be happy without religion? Can you go without it? Can you be apathetic to all the “where do morals come from, etc”? Basically, what is wrong with living life with no religion?
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Sounds like me when I was Catholic. I spent four strenuous years in the SSPX, taking a bus 100 miles to go to the Tridentine Mass. What made you give it all up, if you don’t mind my asking?
 
SGWessells said:
Sounds like me when I was Catholic. I spent four strenuous years in the SSPX, taking a bus 100 miles to go to the Tridentine Mass. What made you give it all up, if you don’t mind my asking?
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In your case, no wonder you quit. You shouldn’t have been so hard on yourself. It’s perfectly possible to be a good Catholic while attending the parish that is within walking distance of your house - and far less stressful. 🙂
 
SGWessells said:
Sounds like me when I was Catholic. I spent four strenuous years in the SSPX, taking a bus 100 miles to go to the Tridentine Mass. What made you give it all up, if you don’t mind my asking?
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Geesh this thread is long. I hope others will learn from it. I’m all for finding “Truth” so long as no one his harmed.

Why I left? Bits and pieces are explained in this entire thread. Basically, I just stopped believing. At first it was very hard. I was very nostalgic about Catholicism. I like and liked the idea of Christ making one true Church. I’m learning more now but am content with life if I still don’t believe in Catholicism.

I lived walking distance from a FSSP parish. Later I moved and still close to a regular parish with TLM. I had no problems with ordinary form Mass if it was done correctly. Liturgical abuses bothered be ALOT, it really deprived the Mass of Catholicity.
 
1voice said:
What, specifically, do you mean when you use the term “liturgical abuses” ?
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Catholic worship is liturgical. Abuses refer to Catholic worship being done incorrectly and without reverence as mandated by GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal). This sometimes makes Mass “Protestantized”.
 
PathDiagnosis said:
Catholic worship is liturgical. Abuses refer to Catholic worship being done incorrectly and without reverence as mandated by GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal). This sometimes makes Mass “Protestantized”.
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Have you experienced an Eastern Catholic service?
 
PathDiagnosis said:
#1 - I am not sure if it is an imagined need or not. Your response is based much on emotions, feelings, “God shaped hole”, etc.

#2 - You wrote “we ache for God to fix it all”. This is where I’m afraid all religion is a form of escapism. Just because we want it to be true doesn’t make it true. Maybe Theism has been around for all this time because of the desires/aches you mentioned?

#3 - Maybe humanity is escaping this possibly imagined need for the Divine/religion/God? People are becoming less religious, even religious ones.

Question for you specifically:
You desire I return to God’s embrace. What would you think if I became Catholic and not your religion (Christian but not Catholic)? Would it bother you? Both are are different conclusions about God.
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Been off the computer for a few days; my apologies for the delayed response. First of all, I do think that you are right to question and to search. I don’t find that offensive at all. I did not arrive at my faith lightly, and so I applaud your seeking. One word of caution, however: a search must always end with a conclusion, otherwise it wasn’t really a search to begin with.

#1 - My response looks emotional on the surface, and of course there are emotions there, but think about psychology. How many people spend countless hours in therapists offices grappling with their issues? Why would we have issues if we did not have these deep-seated needs for unconditional love, acceptance, significance, etc.? Where does this come from if not built into us by God as a way of drawing us back to Himself? Look at Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. The highest level, that of Self-Actualization, lists things such as morality, creativity, etc. Those are just as real and driving as the more “basic” needs.

This is my biggest beef with naturalistic evolutionary theory. In any textbook I’ve ever read, it is acknowledged that animals do not think and reason as humans do, not even our (supposed) close cousins. Where would that come from? The answer has to be God. Nothing else comes close to making sense.

God is not quantifiable in a way that atheists (I generalize here) demand He be. This sets up man as god, after all. It is man who sets the boundaries. To know God is to recognize that He sets the boundaries for humanity. Even if I could say, “Look at _________. That is God,” you could disagree with me. You could ignore it. Or you could even decide that yes, that is God, but that you want nothing to do with Him.

#2 - Yes, our desire for something to be true doesn’t make it true. But it is possible that we recognize God as True deep within ourselves, and that the desires spring from there? Do we not put ourselves into anguish when we try to ignore these desires, these questions?

#3 - Is the world any better off for people being less religious? I would say not. Besides, faith and religion do not follow neat patterns of evolution. (If you want to get into the ideas of Original Monotheism and the development of religion, check out “Neighboring Faiths” by Winfried Corduan). Can people “get by” without religion? Can they possess morals? Yes. Can they escape the inevitable despair and nihilism that arises logically out of refusing to know God? In my experience, such an escape is impossible, even if the impossibility is denied.

Your specific question to me - I wouldn’t be bothered at all by your being Catholic, especially since I disagree with your view that I’m a different religion or that the three main streams of Christianity come to different conclusions about God. Christianity starts with God. I can wholeheartedly recite the Creeds along with my Catholic brothers and sisters without any issue at all.

You have questions; we all do. There isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t wonder why God decided that it would be best for me to be half-blind and to live in a body that basically has no immune system. I get tired of being sick and tired. I wonder how He can be love, how He can have no beginning, what sorts of animals made it onto the Ark and what ones weren’t allowed, why there is such hypocrisy. And then I wonder if I lay too much at the feet of God and too little at the feet of man.

PathDiagnosis, I respect your journey. My hope is that it is a real journey.
 
I am at a ‘cross-roads’ with my practice and attendance at Church.
I was raised Catholic, left and returned again (after Occult practices etc) only early this year. I have since, only the last month or so, been questioning it all again. I felt I had lost touch with God (again) so I have not attended Mass for a while now.

Many people recently have told me, God it within us and around us. Well, I’m sure we all know that, but this does make you wonder, would he really mind either way, if we attended Mass?

I was becoming unhappy, and I am positive he would not like to see his child this way. I feel a little more content now, still have not returned to mass yet, but do plan to go during Advent, sometimes. I hope this is ok, and I will still get to meet my maker in Heaven one day. I hope he is not disappointed with me. 🤷

We are all just spiritual beings having a human experience after all. We can only do the best we can do. Practice or don’t practice, in the end, does it really matter?

Blessings. 🙂
 
Angels_Eyes said:
Many people recently have told me, God it within us and around us. Well, I’m sure we all know that, but this does make you wonder, would he really mind either way, if we attended Mass?
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Maybe you’ll find this analogy helpful:

Let’s say you and your beloved are very close. You travel a lot and keep his picture (sorry! I’m assuming you’re female) near you. You say, “We are so close that my honey is with me all the time in spirit. That’s how close we are!”

Would that be sufficient for you? Or would you also want to be physically present with him, enjoying his company?

Similarly, while God is indeed “around us”, there’s quite a difference between being with Him in nature, or “seeing Him in others”, than actually being physically present with Him, and ONE FLESH with Him at the Eucharist.
 
Angels_Eyes said:
I am at a ‘cross-roads’ with my practice and attendance at Church.
I was raised Catholic, left and returned again (after Occult practices etc) only early this year. I have since, only the last month or so, been questioning it all again. I felt I had lost touch with God (again) so I have not attended Mass for a while now.
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Did you lose touch with God because of Mass?
 
Angels_Eyes said:
I am at a ‘cross-roads’ with my practice and attendance at Church.
I was raised Catholic, left and returned again (after Occult practices etc) only early this year. I have since, only the last month or so, been questioning it all again. I felt I had lost touch with God (again) so I have not attended Mass for a while now.

Many people recently have told me, God it within us and around us. Well, I’m sure we all know that, but this does make you wonder, would he really mind either way, if we attended Mass?

I was becoming unhappy, and I am positive he would not like to see his child this way. I feel a little more content now, still have not returned to mass yet, but do plan to go during Advent, sometimes. I hope this is ok, and I will still get to meet my maker in Heaven one day. I hope he is not disappointed with me. 🤷

We are all just spiritual beings having a human experience after all. We can only do the best we can do. Practice or don’t practice, in the end, does it really matter?

Blessings. 🙂
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Hi,

Perhaps the masses you attend are boring? Perhaps you could go somewhere else?

A mass is only 1 hour per Sunday, I think the Eastern Orthodox Church has services which are 3-4hours long. Surely you spend more than 1 hour per week on other stuff you don’t consider as important as God. Why not just go to be with God? It’s not too much time. It also warms other people up to see a larger attendance. It may bring more people to Church if more people attend.

Don’t you think some people could get sloppy in their faith and more morally relativistic if they attend less and less? Perhaps they could end up picking up bad habits? If this mass thing is not important, then maybe this chastity thing, and then maybe this lying thing, and this belief in Christ’s Resurrection thing is also not important? Perhaps its optional.

It’s really the same case with physicians. One has to keep up with the CME (Continuous Medical Education) program or one becomes a hack as one tends to forget or pick up bad habits from oneself or colleagues.

What do you think? God Bless!
 
I AM LEAVING THIS COMMUNITY FOR AT LEAST A WHILE, MAYBE FOR GOOD

“Atheists by definition are immoral”

I was offended and disgusted by some of the self-righteousness on here.

I was learning here. Oh well, I have some personal Catholic friends I can speak with.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8630210&postcount=142

“Atheists by definition are immoral”.
Some of the worst five words I’ve heard in my life.
We can be good people, too. We don’t need complicated philosophy and theology to back it up. We have our lives.

Peace
 
PathDiagnosis said:
I AM LEAVING THIS COMMUNITY FOR AT LEAST A WHILE, MAYBE FOR GOOD

“Atheists by definition are immoral”

I was offended and disgusted by some of the self-righteousness on here.

I was learning here. Oh well, I have some personal Catholic friends I can speak with.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8630210&postcount=142

“Atheists by definition are immoral”.
Some of the worst five words I’ve heard in my life.
We can be good people, too. We don’t need complicated philosophy and theology to back it up. We have our lives.

Peace
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I’m sorry to see you go. Don’t judge us all by some. Understand that Catholics, too, are insulted all the time on this forum. It happens pretty much all over the web. If you are learning, ignore things that are offensive and continue to learn. Don’t let offensive posts keep you from learning.

Having said that, however, if your Catholic friends really understand Catholicism, they would be a good place to go because you actually know them and can trust them.
 
PathDiagnosis said:
I AM LEAVING THIS COMMUNITY FOR AT LEAST A WHILE, MAYBE FOR GOOD

“Atheists by definition are immoral”

I was offended and disgusted by some of the self-righteousness on here.

I was learning here. Oh well, I have some personal Catholic friends I can speak with.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8630210&postcount=142

“Atheists by definition are immoral”.
Some of the worst five words I’ve heard in my life.
We can be good people, too. We don’t need complicated philosophy and theology to back it up. We have our lives.

Peace
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This is so sad and it makes me angry. I’m sorry that this happened, PathDiagnosis. I will be praying for you.
 
PathDiagnosis said:
Catholic worship is liturgical. Abuses refer to Catholic worship being done incorrectly and without reverence as mandated by GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal). This sometimes makes Mass “Protestantized”.
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I was a Catholic for 25 years or so… I understand the definition … I knew the responses in Latin. I didnt understand what you meant by abuse. Is that part of the reason that you and Roman Catholicism parted ways?
 
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