Why pray to Mary or anyone other than God?

[Sonny69]

It is GREAT blessing that Christ, Himself, told the disciples, thus ALL true disciples how to pray when He was asked explicitly by them and it starts “Our Father” and no other formula was given nor was another ever demonstrated throughout Scripture. Since prayer is a form of worship-well that speaks for itself-doesn’t it?

Prayer always, let me say that again ALWAYS goes to the Father in the name of the Lord Jesus. So when I ask my carnal living mother to pray for me; I know she is praying to the Father because, like me, she knows the one one who was given as our advocate and mediator - unless one is of the camp of the insufficiency of Scripture. No one can argue with God; only with man and the one who argues against the man who proclaims the word of God - argues with the Word of God. PS No mention of praying to those who are already in glory; absent from the body is to be PRESENT with the Lord.

 

[Tiberius1701]

It is GREAT blessing that Christ, Himself, told the disciples, thus ALL true disciples how to pray when He was asked explicitly by them and it starts “Our Father” and no other formula was given nor was another ever demonstrated throughout Scripture. Since prayer is a form of worship-well that speaks for itself-doesn’t it?

Prayer always, let me say that again ALWAYS goes to the Father in the name of the Lord Jesus. So when I ask my carnal living mother to pray for me; I know she is praying to the Father because, like me, she knows the one one who was given as our advocate and mediator - unless one is of the camp of the insufficiency of Scripture. No one can argue with God; only with man and the one who argues against the man who proclaims the word of God - argues with the Word of God. PS No mention of praying to those who are already in glory; absent from the body is to be PRESENT with the Lord.

Sonny, please read the entire thread before you make arguments that completely ignore what has been said several times about the actual, original meaning of “prayer” as oposed to the new, mainly Protestant understanding that it is “a form of worship.” That “speaks for itself” in your mind, where you’ve never considered that “I pray thee” means, “I ask you [for]” whatever and was used far more often to make requests of fellow humans than to make requests of God. However, for those of us acquainted with this little tidbit of the history of the English language, it speaks for itself in quite the opposite manner.

Similarly, there actually is mention of a very traditional Jewish form of prayer that I’d bet you’ve never prayed but which Jesus and the Apostles continued to honor and perform:

All saw at once that this was why they had perished, and, blessing the dealings of the Lord, the just Judge who revealeth what is secret, all betook themselves to supplication, beseeching that the sin committed [by those who had died] might be wholly blotted out; and the noble-hearted Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, after what they had seen with their own eyes as the result of sin committed by those who had fallen. He then collected from them, man by man, the sum of two thousand drachmas of silver, which he forwarded to Jerusalem for a sin-offering. In this he acted quite rightly and properly, bearing in mind the resurrection—for if he had not expected the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and silly to pray for the dead—and having regard to the splendour of the gracious reward which is reserved for those who have fallen asleep in godliness—a holy and pious consideration! Hence he made propitiation for the dead, that they might be released from their sin
-II Macc 12:40-45

This practice, very closely related to prayers for the intercession of the Saints, is likewise affirmed by St. Augustine:

“But by the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead, but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death”
-City of God, 172:2.

In addition to that, there’s also the very simple, and obvious, fact that Jesus spoke to two dead men: Moses and Elijah (Matt 17:1-13). This, in my opinion is a perfectly clear “mention of praying to those who are already in glory” since, Elijah, for instance, was specifically shown to have been taken up directly into heaven (II Kings 2:1-18). And, just as you claimed He didn’t do, this example was provided by Jesus Himself.

 

[SteveVH]

Sonny, please read the entire thread before you make arguments that completely ignore what has been said several times about the actual, original meaning of “prayer” as oposed to the new, mainly Protestant understanding that it is “a form of worship.” That “speaks for itself” in your mind, where you’ve never considered that “I pray thee” means, “I ask you [for]” whatever and was used far more often to make requests of fellow humans than to make requests of God. However, for those of us acquainted with this little tidbit of the history of the English language, it speaks for itself in quite the opposite manner.

Similarly, there actually is mention of a very traditional Jewish form of prayer that I’d bet you’ve never prayed but which Jesus and the Apostles continued to honor and perform:

This practice, very closely related to prayers for the intercession of the Saints, is likewise affirmed by St. Augustine:

In addition to that, there’s also the very simple, and obvious, fact that Jesus spoke to two dead men: Moses and Elijah (Matt 17:1-13). This, in my opinion is a perfectly clear “mention of praying to those who are already in glory” since, Elijah, for instance, was specifically shown to have been taken up directly into heaven (II Kings 2:1-18). And, just as you claimed He didn’t do, this example was provided by Jesus Himself.

I was just going to reply to Sonny’s post when I read yours. I think you summed it up beautifully. Very nice.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

It is GREAT blessing that Christ, Himself, told the disciples, thus ALL true disciples how to pray when He was asked explicitly by them and it starts “Our Father” and no other formula was given nor was another ever demonstrated throughout Scripture. Since prayer is a form of worship-well that speaks for itself-doesn’t it?

Where is the Bible does it say that** all **prayer is a form of worship, pray tell thee?

Prayer always, let me say that again ALWAYS goes to the Father in the name of the Lord Jesus. So when I ask my carnal living mother to pray for me; I know she is praying to the Father because, like me, she knows the one one who was given as our advocate and mediator - unless one is of the camp of the insufficiency of Scripture. No one can argue with God; only with man and the one who argues against the man who proclaims the word of God - argues with the Word of God. PS No mention of praying to those who are already in glory; absent from the body is to be PRESENT with the Lord.

1. Heb 12:1. The “witnesses” in God’s glory surround the Church. Witnesses not only see and hear but also testify. They “witness” to what is going on on earth and their prayers ascend to God in heaven(Rev 5:8; 8:3-4).
2. Where does it say in the Bible that Jesus doesn’t share His mediatorship with those with Him in glory?
3. Argue with God? Never. Argue with the bad interpretation of protestants, always.

PS, I really get tired of the “no mention” argument. By this argument they also reject infant baptism and in the same breath condone contraception & ABC. They set aside scripture for divorce and remarriage yet when it comes to prayer to the saints they think that they have the right to beat us over the head with the Bible. I believe that there is a word for this…

 

[Bill_Pick]

When Catholics pray to Mary and the other saints in Heaven they are not bypassing Christ, whom they acknowledge as the sole Mediator between God and man. They are going to Christ through Mary and the other saints. They are asking Mary and other saints to intercede for them before the throne of Christ in Heaven. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.'' (James 5:16). How much more availing is the unceasing prayer of the sinless Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ! St. Paul asked his fellow Christians to intercede for him: Brethren, pray for us.’’ (2 Thess. 3:1). And again: ``I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God…’’ (Rom. 15:30). Christ must particularly approve of our going to Him through Mary, His Blessed Mother, because He chose to come to us through her. And at Cana, He performed His first miracle after a word from His Mother. (John 2:2-11).

It is clear in Sacred Scripture that the saints in Heaven will intercede for us before the throne of Christ if they are petitioned in prayer (Apoc. or Rev. 8:3-4), and it is clear in the records of primitive Christianity that the first Christians eagerly sought their intercession. Wrote St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century: ``When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies, but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power.’’ If the saints have such power with God, how much more His own Mother.

CATHLOIC ANSWER

 

[popster]

Amen. And since Jesus came to us through Mary, it is obvious that God wants her involved. Couldn’t Almighty God have provided salvation for the human race in any way that He desired? He provided salvation for us through the Blessed Mother! How wonderful that He did give us a Blessed Mother in providing His Son to us!

John 21:25 states “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.” This scripture tells me that everything that was included in the scripture must be exceedingly important. The first miracle at Cana - very important! Why did the disciples go to Mary? Was she an effective intercessor? She still is!

 

[JHow]

Apropos the English meaning of “pray”, I ran across this the other day, helping my son with homework. It is from Act 3 Scene 1 of Julius Caesar, Caesar is speaking:

…Thy brother by decree is banished:
If thou dost bend and pray and fawn for him,
I spurn thee like a cur out of my way…

And later in the same exchange.

…I could be well moved, if I were as you:
If I could pray to move, prayers would move me:
But I am constant as the northern star,
Of whose true-fix’d and resting quality
There is no fellow in the firmament…

In both these examples pray is “ask for a favor” not “worship”, as can be seen from the context (they are requesting the repeal of Cimber’s banishment as pretext to get close to Caesar and assisinate him).

 

[babylonsfalling]

It is GREAT blessing that Christ, Himself, told the disciples, thus ALL true disciples how to pray when He was asked explicitly by them and it starts “Our Father” and no other formula was given nor was another ever demonstrated throughout Scripture.<—VERY HYPOCRITICAL STATEMENT Since prayer is a form of worship-well that speaks for itself-doesn’t it? <—THIS SHOWS EITHER YOUR IGNORANCE OR YOUR DISHONESTY OF THE BIBLE

Prayer always, let me say that again ALWAYS goes to the Father <–MORE BIBLICAL IGNORANCE OR LIES. YOU OBVIOUSLY DON’T SEEK THE TRUTH SO I’LL POST IT BELOW

I’ve yet to be to a non Catholic Church which prays only as Christ instructed in the Our Father…when I hear that point being made by anti Catholics, I can’t help but think “total hypocrite”.

Here you go. If you were seeking the truth, you’d already have searched these verses up yourself and you’d know that prayer does not always go to God.

Here’s a chance to show a little intellectual honesty for a change. All the verses below contain the phrase “I pray you”…in what percentage of them is the prayer being directed to God?

Genesis 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Genesis 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Genesis 34:8 And Hamor communed with them, saying, The soul of my son Shechem longeth for your daughter: I pray you give her him to wife.

Genesis 37:6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:

Genesis 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them , I pray you.

Genesis 45:4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.

Numbers 16:8 And Moses said unto Korah, Hear, I pray you, ye sons of Levi:

Numbers 16:26 And he spoke unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.

Numbers 22:19 Now therefore, I pray you, tarry ye also here this night, that I may know what the LORD will say unto me more.

Judges 8:5 And he said unto the men of Succoth, Give, I pray you, loaves of bread unto the people that follow me; for they be faint, and I am pursuing after Zebah and Zalmunna, kings of Midian.

Judges 9:2 Speak, I pray you, in the ears of all the men of Shechem, Whether is better for you, either that all the sons of Jerubbaal, which are threescore and ten persons, reign over you, or that one reign over you? remember also that I am your bone and your flesh.

Ruth 2:7 And she said, I pray you, let me glean and gather after the reapers among the sheaves: so she came, and hath continued even from the morning until now, that she tarried a little in the house.

1Samuel 14:29 Then said Jonathan, My father hath troubled the land: see, I pray you, how mine eyes have been enlightened, because I tasted a little of this honey.

1Samuel 23:22 Go, I pray you, prepare yet, and know and see his place where his haunt is, and who hath seen him there: for it is told me that he dealeth very subtlely.

2Samuel 20:16 Then cried a wise woman out of the city, Hear, hear; say, I pray you, unto Joab, Come near hither, that I may speak with thee.

1Kings 20:7 Then the king of Israel called all the elders of the land, and said, Mark, I pray you, and see how this man seeketh mischief: for he sent unto me for my wives, and for my children, and for my silver, and for my gold; and I denied him not.

2Kings 5:7 And it came to pass, when the king of Israel had read the letter, that he rent his clothes, and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man doth send unto me to recover a man of his leprosy? wherefore consider, I pray you, and see how he seeketh a quarrel against me.

Nehemiah 5:10 I likewise, and my brethren, and my servants, might exact of them money and corn: I pray you, let us leave off this usury.

Nehemiah 5:11 Restore, I pray you, to them, even this day, their lands, their vineyards, their oliveyards, and their houses, also the hundredth part of the money, and of the corn, the wine, and the oil, that ye exact of them.

Isaiah 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, between me and my vineyard.

Lamentations 1:18 The LORD is righteous; for I have rebelled against his commandment: hear, I pray you, all people, and behold my sorrow: my virgins and my young men are gone into captivity.

Ezekiel 33:30 Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the LORD.

Micah 3:1 And I said, Hear, I pray you, O heads of Jacob, and ye princes of the house of Israel; Is it not for you to know judgment?

Haggai 2:15 And now, I pray you, consider from this day and upward, from before a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the LORD:

Malachi 1:9 And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts.

Acts 27:34 Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.

 

[Tiberius1701]

I’ve yet to be to a non Catholic Church which prays only as Christ instructed in the Our Father…when I hear that point being made by anti Catholics, I can’t help but think “total hypocrite”.

I have to admit, even being the former-Protestant that I am (I converted at the age of 27), I have never heard this “Prayer must always be directed to the Father” concept. In fact, although prayers certainly were directed to the Father ocassionally (often very occasionally), more often than not, they were directed to the Son aka Jesus aka the Lord, etc. Almost never were they directed to the Spirit, but if they were, no one was ever shocked or scandalized. After all, every Protestant I’ve ever met (aside from one or two complete… um… let’s just say “special cases”) accepted the Truth of the Trinity, so prayer to God the Father is, to them, just as valid as prayer to God the Son or God the Spirit. This principle of yours, Sonny, is, well, quite innovative. (And, speaking as one who knows how Christianity has always viewed innovation in doctrine throughout the centuries, I assure you that that is most definitely not a compliment…) If I may ask, what, precisely, is your faith background?

 

[PJM]

=armourbearer;7856693]The Word of God says
“Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.” Proverbs 4:7

To quote my Pastor.
“It’s the relationship that counts and that is all that matters.”

And to quote JRKH
“a simple question can have very complex answers”
(“nail on the head” comes to mind James, thanks.)

I would like to confess some of my new understanding that you all have most graciously bestowed upon me about asking Mary and others for intercession. And for this I truly give Thanks!

1). I no longer believe the practice of asking Mary, the saints and the Apostles to intercede an act of worship by default, I believe it to be a matter of matter of intent.

2). ‘Praying’ is clearly a word that must have its usage clarified to understand the practice in its proper form.

3). I did not realize that asking Mary, the saints or Apostles for their intercession was not a command or an expected practice of the Catholic faith. It is simply based on personal need.

What I have heard from everyone is that this practice is based on the teaching of intercession and the value of the righteous in intercession, so I have studied and prayed and this is where I have ended up.

Asking the intercession of Mary, the saints and Apostles for intercession is not what Jesus had intended. He tells us to intercede and ask for intercession with very clear directions on why we are to seek it (Galatians 5:14 and James 5:16 “that ye may be healed.”), where we are to seek it and the mechanics of intercession (James 5:16, Romans 15:1) and none of this includes asking anyone inside heaven, other than Jesus.

What I do find fault with is the belief that they are intended to intercede, to take action as an intercessor, an action that the Bible states as a two way street and by implication a position of close proximity, namely here on earth. “Confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another.” “One to another” implies a great many things, a close proximity, a shared experience, an earned trust and a fulfilled obligation. None of these things are actions those who have died and moved on can any longer fulfill, if they could, there would be no reason for Paul to be torn in Philippians 1:20-26 in the choice between labour with the saints and “gain”, as he clearly was. He says: “24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;”

There is a clear distinction between “in the flesh” and his “gain.” I believe he was torn because he knew his limits, he was worried about their strength and growth and that he could not do for them what it is that they would need from heaven. He could not strive with them; he could not help bear their burdens any longer.

I believe in modern vernacular “location is everything,” applies here in a manner we may not be considering. Jesus lived, died and was resurrected and abides in Heaven. Everything He did, He did so that we could be with Him (John 14:2). Jesus lived, suffered, sacrificed, died and rose to achieve…an unencumbered, one on one relationship with each and every one of His children in His Kingdom (Matthew 27:51). He did it every day He lived a life without blemish, with every precious crimson droplet they bled from Him, with every stripe He bore He nailed our sin to His cross so that we could be free to have the Lover of our souls no further than a whisper. He did it so that we would have to offer no one, anything, to have the Maker of Heaven and Earth, The I am, the one who hung the stars, to whom the Angels bear witness and cry out to continually, hear our prayers. With this in mind why would I ask a servant of the King of a Kingdom to do anything for me when the King says that if we ask anything according to His will, He will not refuse us? To do so seems disrespectful, somehow. Am I saying they do not hold places of honor, no, I am not; but in Heaven who better to pray for any of us than the one who judges the righteous and intercedes for the saints (Romans 8:27).

“… who better to pray on your behalf than the mother of the Son of God?”

***THANK YOU well done! May I add a note:

For skeptics.

It is FAR more accurate to say and understand that “Catholic pray THROUGH” Mary and the saints than “too them.” Both are accurate; BUT “THROUGH” explains what we are doing and hints at WHY we are doing it.

Because Mary and the Saints have PROVEN THEMSELVES worthy to be in heaven [the process is extensive and severe] they have the “Beatific Vision” And are WITH GOD.

By praying THROUGH THEM we permit them to ADD their own petitions on our behalf to our own. Thus DOUBLING them. Further becasue they present them PERSONALLY to God on our behalf they are even MORE effective.

As I shared recently in another POST; the “Hail Mary” is, next to the LORDS Prayers the most offered Petition going before God. EACH of the individual pleas are founded on Lukes account in Chapter One of the Birth of Christ. The prayers ends in this manner:

“AND PRAY FOR US SINNERS NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH!”

So understanding that we Catholics are praying THROUGH [not only too] MAry and the saints out to make clear that THIS IS NOT WORSHIP! Which we too reserve for God Alone. It is reverence and respect for wha they are and what they have accomplished***.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Roy5]

A couple quick thoughts, coming (as I do) from a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage.

(1) Whether Catholics are supposed to worship Mary or not, many appear to. When I attend Mass, wherever I happen to be, there always is a statue of Mary, and usually an altar that is focused on her. That leads non-Catholics to believe Mary is venerated, which can seem a lot like worship.

(2) It appears to me that the ‘Hail Mary’ is the most recited prayer among Catholics, even more popular than the “Our Father”. Consider the Rosary, for example.

(3) What is disconcerting is that many Catholics seem to look to Mary and the saints to receive special blessings or favors, as though they will work on our behalf and have special influence with God. I recall more than one priest saying that Mary is especially effective as an intercessor because how can Christ refuse requests of his beloved mother -etc.? That can seem paganish, if you will forgive the term.

(4) All Christians should honor Mary, of course, but making her the “Queen of Heaven” and “Our Lady” of dozens of things and places - that seems to echo certain cults that existed before or simultaneously with early Christianity. One can’t help but wonder if they didn’t impact Christian belief. I’ve read that the veneration of Mary gathered steam mainly beginning in the 3rd century?

(5) The Bible seems to have scant references to Mary, apart from the nativity story and Mary standing by the cross, and the words Christ directed to John. The only two other episodes can even seem a bit dismissive of Mary - Matt 12:46-50 and John 2:4. In all of the letters of Paul and other epistles addressed to early Christians Mary is not mentioned once. It seems strange that if she should come to occupy such a central position in church doctrine she would have been ignored in that way.

(6) I have no particular problem with asking Mary and the saints for their prayers, like I would ask other fellow Christians, but the veneration of Mary plus some of the fantastic (as in fantasy) stories told re the saints do make me skeptical of the whole system. Even the apparitions of Mary make me wonder. Maybe I have been too influenced by science and reason??? I guess I need a reasonable version of Christianity consistent with what we know today. To perpetuate all manner of ancient and medieval beliefs that seem outdated by modern discoveries can seem to be like insisting that the sun goes around the earth which the Church once taught - the basis for condemning Galileo.

(7) As for myself, I find it sufficient to pray to God directly. The whole world of Mary and the saints seems to have gained steam in ancient and medieval times, with - what? - maybe 10,000 saints, a saint for just about everything, everybody, every nation, every condition, etc.? I have doubts about this rush to beatify and canonize Pope John Paul II. History will determine whether he was, on balance, an asset or a liability. This heinour sex scandal makes one wonder about him as well as about Benedict XVI.

(8) On the other hand, I believe in a ‘big tent’ Christianity, a faith broad enough to include people of varying beliefs as long as they go along with Matt. 25:31ff. Sadly. over the centuries doctrinal conformity as declared by the institutional church came to outweigh
the emphasis of Christ on loving God and one another. Thus those shameful religious wars, burning heretics at the stake, forbidding Catholics from so much as entering a Protestant church, etc.I stayed with a Hindu family in India some years ago, and if they aren’t welcomed into heaven I worry for myself and many other Christians I know.

God bless everybody. No exceptions. We need to replace bigotry, arrogance and hostility with love, humility and peace. I’m sure Christ would want that.

 

[pablope]

A couple quick thoughts, coming (as I do) from a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage.

(3) What is disconcerting is that many Catholics seem to look to Mary and the saints to receive special blessings or favors, as though they will work on our behalf and have special influence with God. I recall more than one priest saying that Mary is especially effective as an intercessor because how can Christ refuse requests of his beloved mother -etc.? That can seem paganish, if you will forgive the term.

 

[Roy5]

Hm! I guess I have trouble believing in Satan the way you apparently do. But - thank God - we live where we are permitted to believe as we feel God leads us.

I am not criticizing Mary, by the way. Just that I pray directly to God. I suspect that there are various paths to the Lord.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Really!! "can anyone go directly to God and then live?

Understanding Jesus is our King of Kings and Lord of Lords who established His kingdom on earth as it is in heaven, will help understand why we ask our heavenly Saints, our Lord and King’s mother with the angels to pray for us…

(John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.)

If Jesus possesses the divine promised eternal Kingship of David, and is enthroned in heaven? Then who is in his presence?

Every Davidic King always reigned with his Mother sitting at his right side, along with his closest friends and subjects.

This is the communion of Saints, the companions of Jesus. God is God of the living not the dead, the Saints are more alive in Christ more than we are.

1Thes.5:9 For God did not destine us for wrath, but to gain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live together with him

Hebrew 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,…2 while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith… and **has taken his seat at the right of the throne of God. **

Hebrews 10:19 **Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary **20 by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have “a great priest over the house of God,” 22 let us approach with a sincere heart and in absolute trust, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience 12 and our bodies washed in pure water.

Catholics have the biblical assurance that we can enter into the holy of holies, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, we can go before the Father with the True presence of Jesus body, blood soul and divinity.

When we offer up our prayers along with the prayers of the saints, who are the firstborn enrolled in heaven along with the angels, We do so in reverence posture before our King of Kings throne room in heaven…

Hebrews 12:22 No,** you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, 23 and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, 6 and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, 24 and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,** and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently 7 than that of Abel.

Paul teaches the doctrine of communion of Saints, when the saints, “holy ones” on earth, and the saints in heaven “holy ones in light” pray and intercede on our behalf “ALWAYS”.

Colossians 1:3 We always give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,** when we pray for you, **4 for we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love that you have for all the holy ones
5 because of the hope reserved for you in heaven…9 Therefore, from the day we heard this, **we do not cease praying for you **and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has made you fit to share in the inheritance of the holy ones in light.
13 He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, 26 the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones, 27 to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.

Here are the Saints in heaven ministering on our behalf;

Revelations 5:8
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

Rev. 6:9 When he broke open the fifth seal, **I saw underneath the altar 8 the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. **…11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.

Rev. 8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.
4 **The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. **

Could these virgins be Catholic priestly Saints who were martyred for their witness for Jesus?

Rev. 14:1 Then I looked and there was **the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, 2 and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. **4 These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins 3 and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been ransomed as the first fruits of the human race for God and the Lamb.
5 On their lips no deceit 4 has been found; they are unblemished.

Rev. 21:3… "Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people 4 and God himself will always be with them (as their God).

Rev. 21:9… “Come here. I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

Rev. 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as its foundation, on which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

[Tiberius1701]

(1) Whether Catholics are supposed to worship Mary or not, many appear to. …

(2) It appears to me that …

(3) …many Catholics seem to… I recall more than one priest saying that Mary is especially effective as an intercessor because how can Christ refuse requests of his beloved mother -etc.? That can seem paganish, if you will forgive the term.

(4) All Christians should honor Mary, of course, but making her the “Queen of Heaven” and “Our Lady” of dozens of things and places - that seems to echo certain cults…

(5) The Bible seems to have scant references to Mary…

(6) … Maybe I have been too influenced by science and reason??? I guess I need a reasonable version of Christianity consistent with what we know today…

(7) As for myself, I find it sufficient to pray to God directly. The whole world of Mary and the saints seems to have gained steam in ancient and medieval times, with - what? - maybe 10,000 saints, a saint for just about everything, everybody, every nation, every condition, etc.?..

(8) On the other hand, I believe in a ‘big tent’ Christianity, a faith broad enough to include people of varying beliefs as long as they go along with Matt. 25:31ff. Sadly. over the centuries doctrinal conformity as declared by the institutional church came to outweigh the emphasis of Christ on loving God and one another. …and if they aren’t welcomed into heaven I worry for myself and many other Christians I know.

Regarding the first two (and a half) points, perception is not Truth. Regarding #4 and what the priests have said about Jesus answering the requests of His Mother in the third point, it’s not actually “paganish”. The term you were looking for was “biblical” (cf. Jer. 13:18-20, 1 Kgs. 2:19–20, Rev 11:19-12:2 & this article).

Re: (5) Just because you don’t see the biblical references to Mary in the OT doesn’t mean they aren’t there. For information, for example, on how Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, perpetually a virgin, and other things, please check out my blog or search Catholic.com for articles about Mary. I’m not as active on my blog as I’d like to be (though I will be trying to get back in the habbit), but I’ve been looking at the Marian doctrines and traditions chronologically by date of declaration by the Church. Ijust finished my examination of the doctrine of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, which was defined in the mid-7th century though it was believed from day one.

Re: (6) It sounds to me like you’ve been too influenced by the modern culture that claims science and reason are contrary to religion, not by actual, logical science and reason. That is a lie. Modern science would not exist if not for the efforts of the medieval Catholic Church, which actually created the scientific method because we believe that God is understandable and therefore He created an understandable universe. You should try reading Fides et Ratio.

As for Gallileo, he was not condemned for disagreeing with the Church on a question of unproven science. He was condemned for getting so self-assured about his theory (which at the time had very little proof, even if it did turn out to be right) that he refused to submit to the authority of the Pope. It was his actions as a bad Catholic that got him excommunicated, not his actions as any sort of scientist.

Re: (7) You’re free to pray straight to God, as is every Catholic. But, given your belief that practically everyone will get to Heaven, why should it surprise you that there are thousands of people whom the Church says are definitely there? Seems a bit of a hypocritical oxy-moron to me…

Re: (8) God is certainly Love, but He’s also Truth. He doesn’t just say, “Aw, you’re an unrepentant mass murderer; isn’t that cute! Come on up!” He is a Just Judge. Or haven’t you read that verse where Jesus tells us to “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matt 7:13-14)? You may believe, quite sincerely, in a “big tent Christianity” but that tent is the cathedral dome of the Catholic Church, and the gate to it is a lot narrower than you seem to accept…

As for “doctrinal conformity,” as you call it, didn’t Christ pray that we would all be one as He and the Father are One (John 17:20-26)? Do you think God the Son and God the Father disagree on such essential Truths as how we are saved? Personally, I’m pretty sure, since God is Perfect and the Three Persons are One God, they don’t even disagree on the tiniest detail about anything. And, since we’re supposed to be “perfect as [our] Heavenly Father is perfect,” we’d better believe exactly the same things as God, or we ain’t perfect.

And then there’s your rejection of the reality of Satan. God clearly believes in Satan, given how frequently he warns us about him, so… why do you think you might’ve come to believe he doesn’t exist, Roy? Might it be so that he could manipulate you into rejecting many many aspects of the Truth without having to worry about you daring to tell him, in the name of Jesus, to leave you alone? After all, you’d be pretty silly-looking to yell at someone who “isn’t really there” wouldn’t you? But he is there, Roy, and your apathy about whether anything we believe even matters shows that he’s done a bang up job already… I worry for many, many of my Christian brothers, both in and out of the Catholic Church. That’s why I don’t mind soliciting the intercession of “so great a cloud of witnesses” in addition to my own prayers directly to God…

 

[DrPiano]

(7) As for myself, I find it sufficient to pray to God directly. The whole world of Mary and the saints seems to have gained steam in ancient and medieval times, with - what? - maybe 10,000 saints, a saint for just about everything, everybody, every nation, every condition, etc.? I have doubts about this rush to beatify and canonize Pope John Paul II. History will determine whether he was, on balance, an asset or a liability. This heinour sex scandal makes one wonder about him as well as about Benedict XVI.

I came from a Protestant background, moderately opposed to asking the Saints for their Intercession (although I certainly believed in the Great Cloud of Witnesses). Even as I became Catholic, I generally resisted the opportunity to ask Mary or the Saints for their intercession, although I didn’t mind when others did it. But over the past 2 years, I’ve grown to see how comforting having someone in heaven praying for me is. It doesn’t stop me from praying to God - the vast majority of my requests are directed at one of the Three Persons of the Trinity (and all of my adoration, confession and praise are directed to these Three). But just like I ask my mum to pray for me when I’m worried about something, I ask my Patron, or my Heavenly Mum, or my Grandpa who died a few years back to pray for me. About a month ago we had a big health scare that threatened the life of my unborn child. I called my mum, and my mother-in-law, and my sister-in-law and asked them all to pray for me. I prayed to God myself. And I asked St. Gianna and Mary to pray for me too. Just as it was comforting to know that my Mum took time to pray for me, it was comforting to know that up in heaven, some of those who see the face of God were interceding on my behalf too.

I guess I see it as a little disingenuous to say “I just pray to God directly” if you’ve ever asked someone here on Earth to pray for you. But, perhaps you haven’t.

 

[pablope]

Hm! I guess I have trouble believing in Satan the way you apparently do. But - thank God - we live where we are permitted to believe as we feel God leads us.

I am not criticizing Mary, by the way. Just that I pray directly to God. I suspect that there are various paths to the Lord.

Sure Roy…then explain why God’s action here in the book of Job 42:

7
2 And it came to pass after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and with your two friends; for you have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job.
8
3 Now, therefore, take seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up a holocaust for yourselves; and let my servant Job pray for you; for his prayer I will accept, not to punish you severely. For you have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job.”
9
Then Eliphaz the Temanite, and Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite, went and did as the LORD had commanded them. And the LORD accepted the intercession of Job.
10
Also, the LORD restored the prosperity of Job, after he had prayed for his friends; the LORD even gave to Job twice as much as he had before.

 

[armourbearer]

Praise the Lord!

Sorry that I haven’t posted any more replies to the many that have come, I am still working on my response and should post hopefully on Sunday.

Before I do that though I feel the need to address those of you who are like minded, non-Catholic (i.e. Protestant) who are moved to post affirmations along with mine.

I posted in my original post and believe that I have expressed my intention to converse with practicing Catholics so that I may understand what it is that I don’t. I do not come here to offend, challenge, coerce or in any way beat anyone with the Word of God and my beliefs in it. I pray and then write with the hope of having my feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of Peace as well the respect that comes with knowledge that the Lord who Saved me also died so that any and all would have a choice to believe or not believe.
In the Word there is the The Great Commission however, no where does it suggest that we conduct ourselves, in the fulfillment of this task, in an untoward manner to those to whom we converse about our beliefs. Moreover, the Word of God says the exact opposite of what I have seen expressed here by my fellow Children of The Most High God.

Although I appreciate the support, the people of this forum do not by default nor do I believe have the earned the wrath of some of the posts that I have seen attached to this thread.

As I have stated I do apprecieate the support but would emplore any other persons deciding to post with this thread to temper all of your zeal with wisdom and if you simply can not do that and feel empowered to lay down the law, or engage in verbal fisticuffs, **please don’t! I would rather you pray than run the risk of an offense toward any of these good people who have done nothing but welcome me and my questions. The enemy does enough wall building without us allowing him our mouths as mortar.

I reiterate, if you can not as the Lord instructed, put on the whole armour of God please honour my request and do not post but pray to your hearts content!

Thank you and God Bless
Armourbearer**

 

[JRKH]

GREAT POST ABOVE ARMOURBEARER!!

And I, from the Catholic side, say that we to need to heed what armourbearer so aptly expresses above. We are here to teach and to learn from each other in Love.

To all whether Catholic or not - remember that the greatest virtue is Love…Charity

Peace
James

 

[Roy5]

Yes, by all means, the central theme of Christianity must be love.

This helps explain why I am concerned when 'correct doctrine' or the proper church affiliation seems to overshdow or displace it.

 One thing has impressed itself upon me as I have read these postings over recent years, since I have been involved in CAF. This is how many conflicting views can be found in the Bible. It appears that most every sect or cult can do just that. On this very day, May 21, one minister declares that faithful believers will be raptured, etc. Sorry, but a lot of nonsense.Yet, it does serve to illustrate how easy it is to take what we want in scripture and use it to support our viewpoint. 

 In a sense, the big divide is between those who accept the authority of a church and/or a book - traditionalist Catholics and evangelical Protestants - and those who believe, as I do, that God has provided us with brains and isn't offended if we come up with differing conclusions. Well, within reason, of course. Those who quote the scriptures to support execution of heretics (e. g., Ex. 22:20) seems to be missing the chief virtue taught by Jesus - love. Re-read the Sermon on the Mount. "Ye have heard it said...thou shalt not kill...but I say unto you... Ye have heard it said, an eye for an eye...but I say unto you....Ye have heard it said, love your neighbor but hate your enemy, but I say unto you..."

 Gosh, if I were to take the whole Bible literally and seriously, slavery would be okay, even selling my daughter into slavery, genocide would be okay, as when God ordered Joshua to kill everyone in Jericho and King Saul to kill every remaining Amalekite, women certainly would not be reading scripture at mass (I Cor. 14:34-35), and women would still be required to cover their heads at mass (I Cor. 11:5-6). Oh, and if we took the OT seriously, we would, like some Muslims, be required to stone adulterers to death, along with rebellious sons and such. Read over Ex. 21, Lev. 20, and Deut. 22-23.

 We could go on, but I hope I've made my point.

 But back to Mary, the subject of this thread. She is to be honored as the mother of Jesus. Howeverm I find little  in scripture that refer to her, apart from the nativity and crucifixion scenes.  In fact, the two other references in the gospels can even seem dismissive of her: Matt 12:48 "Who is my mother?" and John 2:4 "Woman, what have I to do with thee?" Why is it that in all those epistles of Paul and others Mary is not mentioned even once? They were instructing early Christians, and if Mary is supposed to be so central to our Christian faith and worship why is she so completely omitted?

 Then again, I respect all Christians and people of every religious affiliation who are committed to loving one another, following the Golden Rule, and laboring in their own corner for a kinder and more peaceful world. Personally, I have become especially fond of Quakerism and of the Mennonite groups (e. g, Amish). though I'm not about to give up my car or my TV as the Amish would require. And, of course, there are many monks and nuns that live lives of service and sacrifice. May the Lord bless their worthy efforts.

  And may God bless all people of faith, whatever their creed, color, culture or country. Let us worry less about doctrinal conformity and papal or Biblical authority and more about reconciliation, understanding, mutual respect,  and love among all God's children. Let us work together to make our beloved Christian faith one of love, humility and peace rather than bigotry, arrogance and hostility.