Why pray to Mary or anyone other than God?

[GaryTaylor]

And the Angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end

Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Angel answered to her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

Elisabeth, also conceived a son in her old age: who was called barren.

For with God nothing shall be Impossible.

Blessed art thou among women, and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

And whence is this to me, that the MOTHER OF THE LORD should come to me?

And Mary said, My Soul doth magnify the Lord,

And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

And this shall be a sign unto you!

And suddenly there was with the Angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

The BIble in NT the central figure is Jesus Chist ROY?. Nonetheless Mary makes a radiant appearence in Luke as read above. Also those persistant questions about “woman” if you bothered to read the “footnotes” in the Bible then you would understand there actual meaning.

In Matthew 1, we read of the announcement to Joseph, husband of Mary, of the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.

Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost.

Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately.

But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the HOLY GHOST!

And She shall bring forth a SON: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he shall save his people from their sins.

Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife.

And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Mark 6, we read of Jesus.

AND going out from thence, he went into his own country; and his disciples followed him.

And when the sabbath was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were in admiration at his doctrine, saying: How came this man by all these things? and what wisdom is this that is given to him, and such mighty works as are wrought by his hands?

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary,

And Jesus said to them: A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and in his own house, and among his own kindred.

John 19.25: Near the cross of Jesus, stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing near by, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on the disciple took her into his home.

This is not just a personal bequest of his Mother to John, but, being from the cross itself, has a greater significance. First of all, if Jesus were merely asking John to take care of Mary, He would have made His first request to John. But if you look at the passage, you will see that His first statement is to Mary. The emphasis is therefore upon Mary being Mother to John, not John “looking after” Mary. John here represents all the disciples of Jesus, and hence all Christians, who are given Mary as their Mother.

Revelation 12.17: Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

This passage shows the Dragon (Satan), making war on the Woman (Mary)'s offspring, following the birth of Jesus. (see Queen of Heaven for more on Revelation 12) These offspring, clearly represent the community of Christians, who are “the rest of” Mary’s children.

God Bless. Glad I could help clarify the position of Mary for you Roy.

Now maybe if we can get the Pope and Bishops to Consecrate Russia to Her we can actually have world PEACE? Thats is unless someone eles has a better plan for world Peace aside from GOD and the BVM?

GT

 

[Roy5]

Gary

My point (among others) was that, apart from the nativity account and the crucifixion scene, and a couple of other minor references, Mary isn't mentioned in the rest of the New Testament. The OT includes verses which Christians have interpreted as referring to Mary, especially the reference to the virgin in Isaiah, but there is no specific mention of her there, either.

If she was to be venerated as "Queen of Heaven" and such, if altars in honor were to be erected in thousands of churches, would not Paul at least one of his many letters, or one of the other epistle writers, made some mention of her name?

This seems logical to me, and it leads me to wonder if the heavy emphasis on Mariology which we witness today was not a gradual creation and accumulation that developed later on in the church, quite independent of scripture as well as quite possibly influenced by Greco-Roman religion and/or competing various mystery cults which also had major female deities? I admit to a concern that syncretism has impacted Christianity over the century, borrowing from outside and perhaps pagan religions.

I know that even asking this question can seem offensive, and I apologize for that, but I suspect that millions of Christians, Catholics and otherwise, have wondered about this. This doesn't mean for a moment that we shouldn't honor Mary as the mother of Christ, but it appears that many Catholics, in their devotion, go well beyond honor and even seem to worship her, as much as this is denied.  

 But, 'different strokes for different folks'. I have no particular objection to the beliefs others have, of course, but simply am in the continual and exciting process of exploring, asking, questioning, considering, and weighing. I believe I have made the point - often - that I personally relish the freedom to do all this and not feel like some notorious heretic. I'm sure we have the same God, a God of mercy who has provided each of us with a brain, and I suspect that he has no strong objection to using it.

 Keep smiling.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Is Mary the MOTHER OF GOD?

Giving Mary such a title seems too grand to many protestants. For centuries most protestants have tried to ignore Mary, and have avoided all talk and discussion of her - except perhaps to condemn Catholic “excesses”. But this is a serious matter. To call Mary the “Mother of Jesus” and yet refuse to call her “Mother of God” is to diminish Jesus as well as Mary, for it is a denial that Jesus is truly or fully God.

It was this sort of thinking that led to the formal definition of the title Mother of God at the Council of Ephesus in 431AD.

Since the Gospels tell us that the Word did not unite with man, but was made man. “The Word became Flesh” and dwelt among us…" (John 1.14).

This is a crucial difference. Jesus was not two persons: the Son of God, and the Son of Mary, but one person, the Son of God and Mary. If this were not so, his death could not have saved us.

At the Incarnation, through the action of the Holy Spirit, God the Word took flesh and full humanity from the Virgin Mary. Both His Human Nature and His human body came from Mary, These united with His Divine Nature in Jesus.

This produced one person with one consciousness, both fully God and fully man, who is truly both Son of God and Son of Mary.

The Virgin Mary is therefore the Mother of ALL of the PERSON of Jesus Christ, and is therefore truly Mother of God the Son.

BUT DOESN’T CONCENTRATING ON THE VIRGIN MARY DISTRACT US FROM GOD AND FROM JESUS?

This is a common complaint of Protestants, but one I really fail to understand. Does admiring any part of God’s creation distract you from God? When you walk through a forest of tall, ancient trees and you admire their beauty, does it distract you from God?
Similarly when you admire people like St Francis, Mother Theresa, or other Christians who have given up their lives to serve God. Does that make you turn away from God - or is it more likely to make you think of the greatness of the God who inspired such people? So to it is wilth Mary.

An evangelical Christian once retorted indignantly to me “Mary isn’t my Mother.” To which I was forced to respond. “Then what you’re really saying is that Jesus is not your Brother.” And in truth it is as simple as that. If we as Christians are brothers of Jesus, then, as with Jesus, God is our Father and Mary is our Mother.

The bible also teaches, that all Christians become part of the body of Christ. Again this re-emphasises the fact that as Christians become one with Jesus they share with Him, the Fatherhood of God and also, the motherhood of Mary.

Mary’s Bodily Assumption into Heaven
I find it strange that Protestant Evangelicals never seem to wonder where Mary is now, or what her role might be. If they do chance to wonder, they generally keep it to themselves. Raise too many of the wrong topics, and questions may start being asked about whether you really are “one of the group”. Therefore it is quite common for Protestant evangelicals who are quite certain that Uncle Fred is in heaven, wearing his kingly crown, or that they themselves are heaven bound, to question Mary’s presence there.

So, let’s scotch that one straight away. If the Virgin Mary isn’t in heaven, then there’s very little chance that anyone else will ever get there. Mary is the supreme example, or prototype, of what happens to a person who fully places trust and faith in God. Everything we hope to become in Christ, She already is. . Out of the millions of “decisions” made for Christ, Mary’s was the first. Therefore, whatever promises the Holy Scriptures hold for us, Mary already possesses.

Mary’s Bodily Assumption is also a long-standing teaching of the Ancient Churches. The celebratory festival in August dates from at least the 400s in Palestine, and had reached Gaul by the 500s. The setting of a Festival Day for a doctrine is evidence not only of a strong and almost universally-held belief in that doctrine, but also of a long-standing belief - since it is rare for Festival to be celebrated for a belief or incident for which there is not some long attestation. As a comparison, the date of December the 25th for the celebration of Christmas was set only in 354 AD by Pope Julius I.

Early references to the Assumption of Mary include Timothy of Jerusalem in around 380 AD, who wrote: “Wherefore the Virgin is immortal up to now, because He who dwelt in her took her to the regions of the Ascension,”

Gregory of Tours in 580 wrote: “Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who, we believe, was a virgin before and after childbirth, was, as we have said before, carried to Paradise preceded by the Lord amidst the singing of angelic choirs.”

Apocryphal writings detailing the Assumption have been dated back to the 200s.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Roy you are "wrong as has been told to you several times Jesus and Mary are mentioned by Paul. Sorry He didn’t write to your expectations.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

Names and Titles of Mary in Scripture:

Woman: Genesis 3:15; Jeremiah 31:22; John 2:4; John 19:26; Galatians 4:4; Revelation 12:1, 4, 6, 13-17.
Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27 (twice).

Mary: Matthew 1:17, 18, 20; 13:55; Mark 6:3; Luke 1:26, 30, 34, 38, 39, 41, 46, 56, 2:5, 16, 19.

Mary His Mother: Matthew 2:11; Luke 2:34.

His Mother: Matthew 2:13, 14, 20, 21; 12:46, 47; 13:55; Mark 3:31; Luke 2:33, 43, 48, 51; 8:19; John 2:5, 12; (John 6:42); 19:25, 26.

Mary the Mother of Jesus: Acts 1:14.

Mother of Jesus: John 2:1, 3.

Full of Grace: Luke 1:28.

Handmaid of the Lord: Luke 1:38.

Blessed among women: Luke 1:42.

Mother of my Lord: Luke 1:43.

She who believed: Luke 1:45.

His handmaiden: Luke 1:48.

Blessed: Luke 1:48.

Joseph’s wife: Matthew 1:20, 24; Luke 2:5.

Your mother (to Jesus): Matthew 12:47; Mark 3:32; Luke 8:20.

Your mother (to disciple): John 19:27.

As mentioned considering Mary isn’t the FOCUS of the Bible. She plays a significant part Roy. Somehow for you this doesn’t wash?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Gary

My point (among others) was that, apart from the nativity account and the crucifixion scene, and a couple of other minor references, Mary isn't mentioned in the rest of the New Testament. The OT includes verses which Christians have interpreted as referring to Mary, especially the reference to the virgin in Isaiah, but there is no specific mention of her there, either.

If she was to be venerated as "Queen of Heaven" and such, if altars in honor were to be erected in thousands of churches, would not Paul at least one of his many letters, or one of the other epistle writers, made some mention of her name?

This seems logical to me, and it leads me to wonder if the heavy emphasis on Mariology which we witness today was not a gradual creation and accumulation that developed later on in the church, quite independent of scripture as well as quite possibly influenced by Greco-Roman religion and/or competing various mystery cults which also had major female deities? I admit to a concern that syncretism has impacted Christianity over the century, borrowing from outside and perhaps pagan religions.

I know that even asking this question can seem offensive, and I apologize for that, but I suspect that millions of Christians, Catholics and otherwise, have wondered about this. This doesn't mean for a moment that we shouldn't honor Mary as the mother of Christ, but it appears that many Catholics, in their devotion, go well beyond honor and even seem to worship her, as much as this is denied.  

 But, 'different strokes for different folks'. I have no particular objection to the beliefs others have, of course, but simply am in the continual and exciting process of exploring, asking, questioning, considering, and weighing. I believe I have made the point - often - that I personally relish the freedom to do all this and not feel like some notorious heretic. I'm sure we have the same God, a God of mercy who has provided each of us with a brain, and I suspect that he has no strong objection to using it.

 Keep smiling.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

Roy I believe you should read the “other” posts I’ve added. They will help educate you, Which address your lack of scripture understanding in Mary biblically and in History.

God Bless,

 

[Roy5]

As I say, whatever people choose to believe is fine with me. I believe in religious freedom as well as a ‘big tent’ Christianity.

It has interested me that the two doctrines re Mary within Catholicism that differ from most of Protestantism were not defined until the 19th and 20th centuries. The Immaculate Conception, of course, was defined (made mandatory?) in 1864 by Pope Pius IX during whose reign the 'Syllabus of Errors' was promogated. Then, in 1950, during the reign of Pope Pius XII the Assumption of Mary was defined. I happened to be in Rome on a pilgrimage in 1950 - a college student and it was Holy Year. I also have seen and heard four popes in the flesh, including Benedict XVI, when I journeyed to Yankee Stadium during his visit to the USA.

Okay, I really don't want to debate, but just explain why many Catholics and other Christians are concerned that Catholicism may be in danger of having gone too far in its emphasis on Mariology. There are scholars, including some Catholic ones, who seem to recognize that Mariology gradually ballooned until it all but rivals the worship of Christ among many faithful Catholics. I have one friend, for example, who holds on to his Catholicism by a thread but he steals into a Catholic Church nearby (never for mass) but to kneel and pray at the altar dedicated to Mary. He explains it this way. He lost his beloved mother when he was quite young and Mary now serves in that capacity. I certainly don't fault him, but I do wonder.... On the other hand, if it gives him comfort. fine.

 At this stage in my life - I am a senior senior - I hold no particular brief for any one form of Christianity, but I am disturbed by the bitterness I so often find here on CAF directed against Protestantism. You might call me an ecumenical Christian, so enthused when Vatican II allowed Catholics to go to Protestant churches, etc. I recall as a child (I come from a mixed herutage) how relatives had to miss so many baptisms, weddings and funerals because they were held in Protestant churches. Wasn't that silly? I find that in my dealings with both Catholics and Protestants in this area that bitterness doesn't seem to exist. Yes, there is a sense of tribalism, perhaps, but not the hostility which I was aware of when I was a child. Maybe the more devote Catholics, attracted to CAF, are most infected by religious prejudice. My sense is that Christ wants us to live together in harmony, mutual respect, and Christian love.

  I again confess that I enjoy exploring the vast field of religion (and philosophy), learning more about its many fascinating and thought-provoking varieties. I try my best to respect them all. I do have trouble, however, with wild-eyed Muslims, for example, as well as over-zealous Catholics and fundamentalist Protestants who are convinced that they alone embrace the one true faith. With maybe a million solar systems out there in space, I am in awe of God and this magnificent and mysterious creation, and don't claim to know all that much. I walk by faith and not by sight, as the Bible suggests. Like John Wesley said: "If you love God as I do, if your heart is right, let us join hands and walk together."

 God bless the whole world with understanding, peace and love.

 

[LindaPinda]

I am a cradle Catholic. But early on in my journey, I think I may have had more of a non-Catholic way of thinking about all of this. I always prayed directly to God, and didn’t quite understand the passion of some folks’ devotion to Mary.

But as I grew in my faith, I began to see things differently. And my own perspective came about during personal reflections…

Why do we need to go through Mary, when we can go directly to God? Well… let’s reflect on God. Why did He need to go through Mary when He could come directly to us?

The answer is… He didn’t have to. And neither do we. But… He CHOSE to. There were many other ways God could have become “among us”, but He decided on the natural, beautiful vessel of a mother. So, I choose to imitate God’s own actions, and enter closer to Him through that same mother. I am merely imitating God’s actions by “using” Mary (and I mean that in the holiest of ways) as a means to be closer to Him.

I still most often pray directly to God. But there are times, especially in moments of great stress or panic, when I find immediate comfort and focus in offering my prayers through Mary. I know that her mother’s heart understands my mother’s heart, and that she can guide me to keep my heart and mind set on her son in times of trouble.

When my world, and my marriage were seemingly falling apart, all I could think of was “why was this happening to me?” The only prayer that came to my mind in the midst of my distress was “let it be done to me according to your will.” That moment changed everything! Reflecting Mary’s love of God helped me to also keep His will first. That moment opened my heart to whatever lessens God had planned for me, and gave me such strength in the midst of my weakest moments.

I love her for so many reasons, but most of all because she constantly guides me to love her son with as pure a heart as possible.

~Linda

 

[GaryTaylor]

It has interested me that the two doctrines re Mary within Catholicism that differ from most of Protestantism were not defined until the 19th and 20th centuries. The Immaculate Conception, of course, was defined (made mandatory?) in 1864 by Pope Pius IX during whose reign the 'Syllabus of Errors' was promogated. Then, in 1950, during the reign of Pope Pius XII the Assumption of Mary was defined. I happened to be in Rome on a pilgrimage in 1950 - a college student and it was Holy Year. I also have seen and heard four popes in the flesh, including Benedict XVI, when I journeyed to Yankee Stadium during his visit to the USA.

Okay, I really don't want to debate, but just explain why many Catholics and other Christians are concerned that Catholicism may be in danger of having gone too far in its emphasis on Mariology. There are scholars, including some Catholic ones, who seem to recognize that Mariology gradually ballooned until it all but rivals the worship of Christ among many faithful Catholics. I have one friend, for example, who holds on to his Catholicism by a thread but he steals into a Catholic Church nearby (never for mass) but to kneel and pray at the altar dedicated to Mary. He explains it this way. He lost his beloved mother when he was quite young and Mary now serves in that capacity. I certainly don't fault him, but I do wonder.... On the other hand, if it gives him comfort. fine.

 God bless the whole world with understanding, peace and love.

Wrong again…

Mary’s Bodily Assumption is also a long-standing teaching of the Ancient Churches. The celebratory festival in August dates from at least the 400s in Palestine, and had reached Gaul by the 500s. The setting of a Festival Day for a doctrine is evidence not only of a strong and almost universally-held belief in that doctrine, but also of a long-standing belief - since it is rare for Festival to be celebrated for a belief or incident for which there is not some long attestation. As a comparison, the date of December the 25th for the celebration of Christmas was set only in 354 AD by Pope Julius I.

Early references to the Assumption of Mary include Timothy of Jerusalem in around 380 AD, who wrote: “Wherefore the Virgin is immortal up to now, because He who dwelt in her took her to the regions of the Ascension,”

Gregory of Tours in 580 wrote: “Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who, we believe, was a virgin before and after childbirth, was, as we have said before, carried to Paradise preceded by the Lord amidst the singing of angelic choirs.”

Apocryphal writings detailing the Assumption have been dated back to the 200s.

Immaculate Conception was approved at the Council of Basil in 1431. The CC rejected then took another 400 years to approve it.

This has the have benn the Third time this was explained to you.

I personally am not trying to sell you on the BVM. I don’t know anyone worldwide who has a better immediate plan for World Peace. As promise at fatima by Mary and confirmed 3-mths later by an unexplainable Miracle from GOD.

But it would sure help to read the posts istead of repeating the ame errors.

It doesn’t matter if your Protestant, Catholic or whatever. God promised WORLD PEACE. All man has to do is follow about as simple a plan as could be made possible. Instead we continue to to debate repetitive threads such as this when we have absolutely NOTHING to LOSE but may gain WORLD PEACE. What do we have to lose?

There’s not ONE more Catholic in Russia today than there was in 1917. Obviously there’s a problem there with a Mortatorium on the Catholic Church. Whene the last time a POPE visisted Russia? Buddism is more popular in Russia than Catholicism.

Why is this? Because Communism under the disquise of capitalism can control the ROC which it slaways has through the Kremlin and then KGB. Old News really.

Before we are so deep in mass destruction its time to try GODs Plan. Which just so happens to be the BVM.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I am a cradle Catholic. But early on in my journey, I think I may have had more of a non-Catholic way of thinking about all of this. I always prayed directly to God, and didn’t quite understand the passion of some folks’ devotion to Mary.

But as I grew in my faith, I began to see things differently. And my own perspective came about during personal reflections…

Why do we need to go through Mary, when we can go directly to God? Well… let’s reflect on God. Why did He need to go through Mary when He could come directly to us?

The answer is… He didn’t have to. And neither do we. But… He CHOSE to. There were many other ways God could have become “among us”, but He decided on the natural, beautiful vessel of a mother. So, I choose to imitate God’s own actions, and enter closer to Him through that same mother. I am merely imitating God’s actions by “using” Mary (and I mean that in the holiest of ways) as a means to be closer to Him.

I still most often pray directly to God. But there are times, especially in moments of great stress or panic, when I find immediate comfort and focus in offering my prayers through Mary. I know that her mother’s heart understands my mother’s heart, and that she can guide me to keep my heart and mind set on her son in times of trouble.

When my world, and my marriage were seemingly falling apart, all I could think of was “why was this happening to me?” The only prayer that came to my mind in the midst of my distress was “let it be done to me according to your will.” That moment changed everything! Reflecting Mary’s love of God helped me to also keep His will first. That moment opened my heart to whatever lessens God had planned for me, and gave me such strength in the midst of my weakest moments.

I love her for so many reasons, but most of all because she constantly guides me to love her son with as pure a heart as possible.

~Linda

Nice Post Linda, I agree. I was raised catholic so am familiar with the BVM. But it took me a very long time to come around to Her. I toughy “Hey I could go straight to God”

The message of Fatima which I believe God bought to me, changed my thinking profoundly. I believe He wanted me to see how He desire’s the BVM established in this world, with a promise of peace for the owrld to go along with it.

God chose to come to us through Mary in Jesus Christ, He chose’s for us to come to Him through Mary as He came to us…in Humility.

Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant, and will deafeat satan as described in Revelations and Genesis.

This is all been foretold in prophecy. Man needs to put his pride in his pocket and embrace the Humility of Mary to overcome this world enslavement we are racing toward. And you know what if we so chose to embrace the idols of materialism, wealth, pride, and power? The thats what we wull will be slaves to. This is nothing new…its BIBLE! Thats what you chose over God? So be it!

Ours isn’t to ask why, its to do as we our told with total faith in God. Ana the intructions and warning has been given at Fatima. There’s nothing left but HOPE that maybe we can embrace that message which I’m POSITIVE its not to late yet. But we are running out time.

God Bless, Gary

 

[char239]

Why pray to Mary or anyone other than God?

Why talk to your mother or anyone other than God? Why ask anybody to pray for you?

If you were going through a difficult situation, might you ask your mother to pray for you?

Why not ask Jesus’ mother too?

 

[Tiberius1701]

Gary, didn’t the Pope (JPII, I believe) consecrate the whole world to Mary, including Russia? As I understand it, he did that and then consulted Sr. Lucia, who said that was sufficient to fulfill the prophecy. I think the more imminent call now is the follow-up apparition at Akita, that we all consecrate ourselves and especially our sufferings to the Sacred Heart of Jesus truly present in the Eucharist. That’s something* you and I* can do. The Pope and Bishops have done their part. Now it’s our turn to offer our lives as sacrifice to the Lord for the salvation of the whole world…

 

[Disinherited]

We pray to the Blessed Virgin because She is the Mother of Mercy. She does not look at our past merits or what we will be but at what we are today. She keeps God from chastising us even when we deserve it the most and when God doesn’t will to give us grace, She gives it to us so as to save us and make us Her children.

 

[Roy5]

**Disinherited **

Does this mean that Mary dictates what God does? What you have written suggests that. It implies that Mary has God-like powers that can change or even veto the will of God. It’s confusing. to put it mildly.

That’s where Protestants and many Catholics have a major problem. Is Mary in charge of the Godhead? If she can determine the will of Christ, have such influence over his or the Father’s actions, it certainly sounds that way.

To honor Mary is the duty of every Christian, of course. But there seems to be confusion as to where the Trinity begins and where the power of Mary ends. I have heard that some are urging that she be declared co-Redeemer. Is that true? Is that Biblical? Is it found in the early church? If so, why is her name completely omitted from all of the epistles found in the New Testament written to the first Christians? Why is it that the great missionary, St. Paul, neglects to mention her even once?

 

[ClamDigger]

**Disinherited **

Does this mean that Mary dictates what God does? What you have written suggests that. It implies that Mary has God-like powers that can change or even veto the will of God. It’s confusing. to put it mildly.

She has bound herself so perfectly to the will of God that her will has become God’s will and, consequently, God’s will has become her will. That is why God Himself subjected himself to her will (Luke 2.51) and did what she asked of him (John 2.1-11).

That’s where Protestants and many Catholics have a major problem. Is Mary in charge of the Godhead? If she can determine the will of Christ, have such influence over his or the Father’s actions, it certainly sounds that way.

I agree, it certainly does sound that way in the Gospels of John and Luke!

To honor Mary is the duty of every Christian, of course. But there seems to be confusion as to where the Trinity begins and where the power of Mary ends. I have heard that some are urging that she be declared co-Redeemer. Is that true? Is that Biblical? Is it found in the early church? If so, why is her name completely omitted from all of the epistles found in the New Testament written to the first Christians?

She is the Co-Redeemer because, by God’s own choosing, Redemption by Jesus would not have come to mankind if not through Mary. The title does not seek to make her equal to Jesus in the Redemption, it just allows us to fully understand her place in it.

Why is it that the great missionary, St. Paul, neglects to mention her even once?

“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.” --Galatians 4.4
“So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the Free Woman: by the freedom wherewith Christ has made us free.” --Galatians 4.31

 

[Roy5]

ClamDigger

So, Mary is co-Redeemer (or the feminine form of that word). Hm! That stretches things well beyond what the Bible seems to say. Consider Matt. 12:46-50 and John 2:4. Jesus had a great opportunity to elevate his mother on both occasions. Instead, he seems almost dismissive. "Who is my mother?" certainly sounds like a strange question, when he could have hailed her with many salutations. Then, in John: "Woman, what have I to do with thee?" Another strange question. Here again was an opportunity for Jesus to exalt his mother. 

These, by the way, are the only two references to Mary in the Gospels between the nativity account and Mary at the cross. As for the Pauline references, it makes you wonder when he speaks of woman but fails to mention her name. 

Again, Mary should be honored, but to many Mariology gradually expanded until it become central within Catholicism and in the life of many Catholics. I have read that most of these extra-Biblical traditions concerning Mary came from books not considered reliable enough to be included in the scriptural canon. For example, the Bible doesn't mention the parents of Mary - Anna and Joachim tradition says - a tradition taken from one of those non-canonical books, the name of which slips my mind at the moment. In fact, many traditions seem to have come from books of the New Testament Apocrypha, among them the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of Nicodemus, The Acts of Peter, the Acts of Paul, the Acts of Thomas, etc. These books helped spread many stories about Mary and the child Jesus that do not seem to be valid. Did Jesus actually mold clay birds, then touch them and they flew away? Muslims, by the way - as I recall - believe in the Virgin Mary and teach that Jesus spoke while newly-born in the cradle.

 

[ClamDigger]

ClamDigger

So, Mary is co-Redeemer (or the feminine form of that word). Hm! That stretches things well beyond what the Bible seems to say.

How so? God asked her to bear the Redeemer in his womb. God asked her to fashion the body of the Redeemer out of her own body, to form the very flesh that would one day be crucified for our sins! Seems like a pretty huge role in the redemption to me!

Consider Matt. 12:46-50 and John 2:4. Jesus had a great opportunity to elevate his mother on both occasions. Instead, he seems almost dismissive. “Who is my mother?” certainly sounds like a strange question,

How was he being dismissive of Mary? It doesn’t say that he went on to ignore her. He merely used the instance to tell his disciples that they can, if they really wish to, be as close to him as his own biological family. It wasn’t a slight at Mary (which would go against the commandments and be a sin!), but a way to assure his disciples that they were also family to him.

when he could have hailed her with many salutations.

You mean like “full of grace” (Luke 1.28), “blessed among women” (Luke 1.42), “Mother of the Lord” (Luke 1.43), or “blessed among all generations” (Luke 1.48)?

Then, in John: “Woman, what have I to do with thee?”

That’s a faulty translation. The correct phrasing is, “Gune (woman), ti (what) emoi (me) kai (and) soy (you)?” or “Woman, what has this to do with you and me?” Notice that he asks what it has to do with both of them, and then both of them have a role in working the miracle: Mary, through her intercession, and Jesus, by actually working the miracle which his mother requested of him.

Another strange question. Here again was an opportunity for Jesus to exalt his mother.

And he does, by submitting himself to both her will and God’s will in working his first miracle.

These, by the way, are the only two references to Mary in the Gospels between the nativity account and Mary at the cross.

Who cares? How many times is the Holy Ghost mentioned in the Gospels? At Jesus’ Incarnation, at his Baptism, and at his Ascension. Guess the Holy Ghost isn’t very important either, right? Since he isn’t mentioned very much?

As for the Pauline references, it makes you wonder when he speaks of woman but fails to mention her name.

Who do you presume the free Woman, who is our mother, to be?

Again, Mary should be honored, but to many Mariology gradually expanded until it become central within Catholicism and in the life of many Catholics. I have read that most of these extra-Biblical traditions concerning Mary came from books not considered reliable enough to be included in the scriptural canon.

There are also lost gospels, such as the Gospel of Nicodemus, that talk about Jesus’ atoning death. Guess we should just forget about that, right? Since it’s mentioned in a non-canonical gospel, since apparently anything in a non-canonical gospel is untrue, right?
Also, the books of the Bible were only canonized according to what they thought would be most important to read in the churches. The names of Mary’s parents wasn’t on the top of the list and stories about the Christ Child making clay birds and bringing them to life wasn’t on the top of the list for what needed to be instructed to the faithful. It doesn’t mean that these stories are completely untrue, it just means that they weren’t of urgent necessity to salvation. Of course, some books (such as the Gospel of Philip) contained doctrinal errors and were not included for that reason, but it is extremely ignorant to believe that just because a book wasn’t included in the Bible means that it was held as heresy by the Church.

For example, the Bible doesn’t mention the parents of Mary - Anna and Joachim tradition says - a tradition taken from one of those non-canonical books, the name of which slips my mind at the moment.

The Protoevangelium of James and the Gospel of the Birth of Mary…

In fact, many traditions seem to have come from books of the New Testament Apocrypha, among them the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of Nicodemus, The Acts of Peter, the Acts of Paul, the Acts of Thomas, etc.

I’ve already basically answered this… moving on…

These books helped spread many stories about Mary and the child Jesus that do not seem to be valid. Did Jesus actually mold clay birds, then touch them and they flew away? Muslims, by the way - as I recall - believe in the Virgin Mary and teach that Jesus spoke while newly-born in the cradle.

How do you know which ones are valid stories and which aren’t? John says that if all the works of Christ were to be written down, he does not think the whole world could contain them! Maybe the Christ Child actually did make clay birds and bring them to life, maybe he didn’t. Maybe he actually did miraculously dye cloths for a dyer, maybe he didn’t. We don’t have to believe these stories, but there’s no reason to say that they definitely 100% are not true. Not to mention, these apocryphal stories are not the only sources for our doctrines concerning Jesus and Mary, the Church Fathers (who compiled the Bible, mind you) affirmed these doctrines for centuries.

 

[Stepson]

Wow! I had no idea the dept and richness of this matter. My old understanding is completely on it’s head. Keep it coming! I am learning so so much.

But I am still humbly confused. I just spoke to my Catholic friend whom told me that it is a requirement to invoke the Saints and Mary. I must throw the caveat here that he’s a disgruntled Catholic so I would like to hear it from another source.

What is the Catholic teaching? Is it a requirement of faith or is it person preference?

 

[Tiberius1701]

Wow! I had no idea the dept and richness of this matter. My old understanding is completely on it’s head. Keep it coming! I am learning so so much.

But I am still humbly confused. I just spoke to my Catholic friend whom told me that it is a requirement to invoke the Saints and Mary. I must throw the caveat here that he’s a disgruntled Catholic so I would like to hear it from another source.

What is the Catholic teaching? Is it a requirement of faith or is it person preference?

It’s personal preference. You don’t have to pray through the Saints’ intercession to be a Catholic, and you don’t have to pray the Rosary… it just makes putting yourself completely in accord with God’s perfect will ooooooooooooohhhhhh so much easier to do both.

I could, theoretically meditate on the life of Jesus on my own… but I’m not that good at it, so I pray the Rosary to help me remember to do so. And, I could, theoretically, try to pray for my wife, for my little boy-on-the-way, and for all those I love and worry about, all on my own… but I firmly believe that it helps all of us to stay on the path to righteousness to have dozens of Saints among the Church Triumphant praying for us as well. I know my wife’s been worrying a bit this week and it helps her immensely to know that I, plus the three Saints we’re naming him after, plus Mary, plus her own Patron Saint, etc. are all praying for our little Bean.

 

[Edward_H]

Wow! I had no idea the dept and richness of this matter. My old understanding is completely on it’s head. Keep it coming! I am learning so so much.

But I am still humbly confused. I just spoke to my Catholic friend whom told me that it is a requirement to invoke the Saints and Mary. I must throw the caveat here that he’s a disgruntled Catholic so I would like to hear it from another source.

What is the Catholic teaching? Is it a requirement of faith or is it person preference?

Not a requirement to invoke the saints. They’re there to help us…to pray for us, to plead on our behalf, just like our wives, or husbands, friends who are still alive. We do need to believe in the communion of saints…which is, minimally, realizing that death doesn’t separate members of the Body of Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

Wow! I had no idea the dept and richness of this matter. My old understanding is completely on it’s head. Keep it coming! I am learning so so much.

But I am still humbly confused. I just spoke to my Catholic friend whom told me that it is a requirement to invoke the Saints and Mary. I must throw the caveat here that he’s a disgruntled Catholic so I would like to hear it from another source.

What is the Catholic teaching? Is it a requirement of faith or is it person preference?

It is a requirement to believe in the immaculate conception and in the assumption of Mary, body and soul, into heaven. Beyond that, there is no requirement that I know of. We are not required even to pray the rosary, although it is highly recommended.

He may have been speaking of the “communion of saints” which is a Catholic doctrine as well and which certainly implies praying to the saints. In other words, to reject the doctrine of the “communion of saints” would be rejecting the Church, in a sense. But we are not required to pray (ask their intercession) to any particular saint. We are just not allowed to reject the practice. Hope that makes sense.