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reen12
Guest
I don’t have a thing to add to this, uglygal.
God is Who He knows Himself to be.
reen12
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God is Who He knows Himself to be.
reen12
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Bridge
Guest
Just wanted to commend you for this excellent post.
As for why pray…when i think of prayer, i often think of these quotes by Brother Lawrence:
“A miscarriage there is irretrievable.” Let us always remember those words. That i believe is what our prayers should be focused upon. On the health of the soul, so that our souls will be ready to be received by the Holy Spirit.
Yes, there is much suffering in the world. We see things from a physical perspective and we wonder why this is so. Perhaps it wouldn’t be so if God were only concerned with our physical nature. Perhaps it wouldn’t be so if God wanted us merely as pets or slaves and didn’t give us free will.
But i believe God wants humanity to progress closer and closer to Him through our own efforts and by following the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The more we follow the example of Christ, the more we are in communion with Holy Spirit, the more we will learn to care and love and provide for one another. To love and respect all life. And the more we do that, the less miseries we’ll have. For, after all, much of the miseries in the world are of our own doing or lack of doing.
Also i believe that what we call death is to God actually the beginning of True Life, as long as we haven’t allowed our souls to become so darkened, so attracted to worldly desires, that they shrink away from (or even curse and reject) the Light when the time comes.
So let us pray for that. That we will be more and more attracted to the Light and less and less to worldly attractions.
D
DebChris
Guest
Two monks walked with directions not to stop and talk to anybody on the way.
As they were walking, they came to a river that had flooded, except there were no alligators like in Florida.
There was a woman who did not know how she would get across.
One of the monks picked her up and carried her across the river on his back.
The monks continued on their way.
Eventually, the second monk turned to the first.
“Art, why did you stop and carry that woman across the river? You know that we were not to stop or talk to anybody along the way.”
“Hank, you know I put her down as soon as I crossed the river. Why are you still carrying her?”
We can look at suffering and the news reports. We can allow these heart rending stories to tear us down and pull us into the quagmire, or we can choose to do something about them. We can take the anger we feel and direct it in ways that prevent the same type of thing from happening to somebody else.
Reen, you are carrying a burden you do not need to carry. When are you going to set it down?
We have options. We can allow the world and its injustices to pull us down, or we can refuse to let anybody or anything to steal the joy that we have. The choice is ours. We can sing in the midst of unimaginable circumstances.
Enough said. The cross is an absurdity for those who do not believe.
As they were walking, they came to a river that had flooded, except there were no alligators like in Florida.
There was a woman who did not know how she would get across.
One of the monks picked her up and carried her across the river on his back.
The monks continued on their way.
Eventually, the second monk turned to the first.
“Art, why did you stop and carry that woman across the river? You know that we were not to stop or talk to anybody along the way.”
“Hank, you know I put her down as soon as I crossed the river. Why are you still carrying her?”
We can look at suffering and the news reports. We can allow these heart rending stories to tear us down and pull us into the quagmire, or we can choose to do something about them. We can take the anger we feel and direct it in ways that prevent the same type of thing from happening to somebody else.
Reen, you are carrying a burden you do not need to carry. When are you going to set it down?
We have options. We can allow the world and its injustices to pull us down, or we can refuse to let anybody or anything to steal the joy that we have. The choice is ours. We can sing in the midst of unimaginable circumstances.
Enough said. The cross is an absurdity for those who do not believe.
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reen12
Guest
Free will. His vast, eternal plan…limned in abstractions.
quote: reen12
This child had no one to comfort her, in her terror.
Where is she now? What has happened to her?
And nothing in this universe, or any other, can ever ‘justify’ the suffering of that child.
reen12
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tommiatkins
Guest
So Bridge is of the opinion that we should pray to god because the mere hope of him being real will offer some comfort in the face of lifes adversitey?
Surely taking some positive action yourself and not clutching at the apron strings of an imaginary absent daddy, is more fruitful?
And that we should dump any hopes of acheivement or happiness in this life because the next one, (Hey! You get to live again! Just like in the movies!) is going to be better!
It’s got flowing rivers and milk and honey in it. Made by celestial bees and cows. Cows that dont poo and make the place smell.
I cant stand Honey.
Surely taking some positive action yourself and not clutching at the apron strings of an imaginary absent daddy, is more fruitful?
And that we should dump any hopes of acheivement or happiness in this life because the next one, (Hey! You get to live again! Just like in the movies!) is going to be better!
It’s got flowing rivers and milk and honey in it. Made by celestial bees and cows. Cows that dont poo and make the place smell.
I cant stand Honey.
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Bridge
Guest
Do you suppose i haven’t suffered or do not know what suffering is? Do you suppose most (if not all) people that believe in God haven’t suffered or know what suffering is? Have not had tragedies happen to ourselves or to those we love? Do you think we have never asked ourselves why these things happens? We know there is pain. We know there are horrible things that go on all the time. We know that babies are aborted every day. We know that children starve. We know this. And it is natural at some point to ask why does this happen and why doesn’t God prevent it from happening. Most of us have asked ourselves this and have struggled at times upon our spiritual journey and yet in the end we know there is more to life than what we see. That there is a spiritual reality. And that this reality is the true life. That what happens to our in our current corporeal form is but temporary.
There is a book i re-read recently that i would recommend which deals with this (pain, suffering) in a very powerful way. The book is The Worthing Saga by Orson Scott Card.
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reen12
Guest
The cross is not absurd. The doctrines drawn are.
quote: DebChris
The discussion concerns the abduction of a 3 year old.
Those are the unimaginable circumstances.
quote: reen12
Water to wine at Cana. No intervening by Godhead for a
terrified 3 year old.
Jesus in the manger, safe and cared for by his mother.
She was even there for him when he was on the cross.
Yet no one is there for a child of 3.
The God of scripture can keep his ‘vast eternal plan.’
Which includes unimaginable suffering, all alone, of a
3 year old child.
reen12
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Bridge
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Huh? Where did i say that? I hope i didn’t say that, because it does sound shallow. I think what i said, or what i meant to say at least, was that we should pray that our souls, the true part of ourselves, are healthy and are ready to be lifted up to God upon our passing from this stage of life.
I would suggest both taking positive actions AND striving to reach out to the Holy Spirit throughout our lives.
no, not at all…there are many happy and highly successful people who are also very devoted to God…that’s not what i’m saying…what i’m saying, what i truly believe, is that we should be careful not to be blinded by striving so much for worldly happiness and worldly success that we forget about spiritual happiness and spiritual success (ie, everlasting life)…
How strange. As sweet as your postings are i would have thought you would love honey
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reen12
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Adults can fend for themselves, in most instances, Bridge.
The ‘current corporeal form’ here, is a 3 year old, all alone,
suffering unimaginably. And no abstraction, no theory,
or ‘vast eternal plan’ - in this universe or any other -
can ‘justify’ the suffering of that child, and she was all alone.
Jesus at least had his mother near him on the cross,
and she was there to protect and comfort and soothe
him, when he was little. This little girl had no one.
reen12
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Bridge
Guest
Again, Reen, you seem to be suggesting something that you think few who believe in God have considered before, the suffering of a child. And again, i tell you that many religious people have thought of these things and have experienced these things and have at times been angry at God and have asked “why me!” or “why my child!”.
It is hard. Life is hard. I will not argue that. There is suffering. I certainly will not argue that either. There is injustice. There is death and decay. I wish it were otherwise. But i don’t believe we are simply a body. I am certain there is more than that. That there is a God. That we have souls. That God allows humanity to live freely and with this freedom comes pain and suffering but also growth.
And with this belief in God, with this belief that there is something beyond what we experience with our senses, there is also the belief that children who suffer and die will soon be with God. Especially them, for their spirits haven’t become as stained as those of most adults.
It is hard. Life is hard. I will not argue that. There is suffering. I certainly will not argue that either. There is injustice. There is death and decay. I wish it were otherwise. But i don’t believe we are simply a body. I am certain there is more than that. That there is a God. That we have souls. That God allows humanity to live freely and with this freedom comes pain and suffering but also growth.
And with this belief in God, with this belief that there is something beyond what we experience with our senses, there is also the belief that children who suffer and die will soon be with God. Especially them, for their spirits haven’t become as stained as those of most adults.
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reen12
Guest
“As stained?” A 3 year old? What in God’s name is this all about?
I leave it to those following the thread to make sense of this.
quote: reen12
The point is not that heaven awaits, the point is
What kind of a diety would allow, in his eternal plan,
the hideous suffering of that child, and her all alone.
reen12
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reen12
Guest
I still await reply, to the following:
reen12
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Bridge
Guest
Sorry, that was sloppy of me. In that instance i was referring to children in a general sense (let’s say up to the age of puberty). I could be wrong, certainly, but it would seem that at least older children would start to have some darkness or stain on their souls. And then too there is original sin and not every child is baptized…
But that wasn’t the main thrust of my thought. My point was that people who believe in God believe that children who die will soon be with God (ie, not much time if any in purgatory and presumably no chance of Hell). And after that, an eternity of joy.
Perhaps a God who “sees” things differently than us, that it is the soul that is of utmost importance. Perhaps a God who knows that the physical world is mostly illusion in comparison to the spiritual and that our earthly lives, even those of us who live to be a 100, are but a tiny mote of time in comparison to the eternity of the soul. Perhaps a God who quickly sweeps up the souls of children into His loving hands and gives them a spiritual life of vast joy where the pains of the physical life will soon be forgotten, much like the pains of birth are quickly forgotten by babies.
Perhaps a God who has given humanity the freedom to grow and not be tethered. A God who lets us roam out in the wild (so to speak) instead of keeping us fenced in as pets or zoo specimens where nothing bad ever happens and where we don’t have to make choices and don’t have to suffer or worry. But perhaps neither would we grow, or achieve, or truly live or learn to truly love.
A God who knows that in the long run this plan is best for humanity as a whole.
And again, i would recommend The Worthing Saga by Orson Scott Card. He goes into this much more powerfully and profoundly than i ever could.
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tommiatkins
Guest
Why on earth would a child *want *to be with such a god? The one who’s plan was for them to suffer.
I can easily cope with the fact that life is hard. Very Hard for lots of people. That dosnt mean that those people are suffering for a reason or a higher purpose.
Yahweh isnt up there checking off the list…“Hmmm ok, thats Madaline McCann captured for another day, which puts her parents in torment , so Mr McCann can write a book, and that will be read in 2024AD by Bill Broggins who will be inspired to invent the……” (three hundred million lines later…gods oh so perfect plan, consisting of billions upon billions of otherwise random events is complete, and the Devil is destroyed)
Hey God. If you are all powerful and you have a plan. Make the plan happen. Ping! Thats all you need to do. No suffering child, no vast injustices, no starving familys.
Technically God must have *chosen *to make the universe in 6 days, because , hey its not that hard, for him? Is it?
Why couldnt he just have made it all in a picosecond, effortlessly, without having to have a bit of a snooze on sunday? Did all that work make him tired?
Some things seem a little bit tricky for him dont they?
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reen12
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Bridge
Guest
This a question that has troubled humanity for thousands of years. Why do innocents suffer. Why do bad things happen to good people. I had very much suspected that my answers would be inadequate which is why i suggested a book in order to delve deeper into this very difficult mystery.
However, perhaps the book i referred to may not be what you are looking for either, since it is science fiction and does not specifically seek to justify the God of scriptures (it may in fact be more specifically connected to Mormon beliefs since the author is a Mormon), but still i feel it lays out a compelling case for why pain and suffering is allowed.
Perhaps the writings from Pope John Paul II might be closer to what you’re looking for. He focused on suffering during his papacy and wrote an encyclical about it (Salvifici Doloris).
Another among many other possible sources to look at would be CS Lewis, who wrote a book on pain and suffering called The Problem of Pain. Instead of getting the book though you might want to listen to a lecture about the book by Peter Kreeft, a renowned Catholic professor of philosophy and an author himself, which you can download here if you like.
Finally, i would recommend giving William Lane Craig a try. He is not Catholic but he is considered one of the very best Christian Apologists in the world today. If you go to this site you’ll see he has participated in at least one debate dealing with this subject: “Does Evil and Suffering Disprove God?”. And further down the page he gives a series of lectures on “the problem of evil” which might also be of interest. [A disclaimer: i haven’t listened to these but i have listened to other WLC audio and found them to be excellent.]
I sincerely hope that you will find a more satisfying answer to your question than i have been able to provide
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reen12
Guest
You know, Brigde, I appreciate your courtesy and just plainThis a question that has troubled humanity for thousands of years. Why do innocents suffer. Why do bad things happen to good people. I had very much suspected that my answers would be inadequate which is why i suggested a book in order to delve deeper into this very difficult mystery.
However, perhaps the book i referred to may not be what you are looking for either, since it is science fiction and does not specifically seek to justify the God of scriptures (it may in fact be more specifically connected to Mormon beliefs since the author is a Mormon), but still i feel it lays out a compelling case for why pain and suffering is allowed.
Perhaps the writings from Pope John Paul II might be closer to what you’re looking for. He focused on suffering during his papacy and wrote an encyclical about it (Salvifici Doloris).
Another among many other possible sources to look at would be CS Lewis, who wrote a book on pain and suffering called The Problem of Pain. Instead of getting the book though you might want to listen to a lecture about the book by Peter Kreeft, a renowned Catholic professor of philosophy and an author himself, which you can download here if you like.
Finally, i would recommend giving William Lane Craig a try. He is not Catholic but he is considered one of the very best Christian Apologists in the world today. If you go to this site you’ll see he has participated in at least one debate dealing with this subject: “Does Evil and Suffering Disprove God?”. And further down the page he gives a series of lectures on “the problem of evil” which might also be of interest. [A disclaimer: i haven’t listened to these but i have listened to other WLC audio and found them to be excellent.]
I sincerely hope that you will find a more satisfying answer to your question than i have been able to provide.
kindness.
Now age 62, I have ploughed my way thru hesychastic material, John Cassian’s work, on desert monasticism, works on Gestalt psychotherapy, existentialism, Hasidism, Eastern works, 15,000 pages of professional level works in psychology, plus a degree in philosophy, from a Catholic college.
Haven’t practiced Catholicism since 1965, yet in any gathering
of my contemporaries, I’m known as the "Catholic.’ [Todays mind-boggling misnomer.]
I assure you, I have read and thought, and now have 50 years to
draw on, in terms of life lived and experienced. I will not
recount the sufferings in my own life, but they have been
considerable.
Finished reading much of Lewis, 25 years ago.
[Lewis was not entirely satisfied, with his volume on pain.]
To me, his finest work was an essay, The Weight of Glory.]
What gets me, is when I hear of great suffering as somehow
‘justified’ by God’s ‘plan.’ Only profound silence is meet, in
the face of great loss and hurt. Presence, rather than polemics.
“It is truly meet and just…”
I think that the Judeo-Christian scriptures at least convey
some idea of Who God is. In both Judaism and Catholicism,
the add-ers, the over-explainers, the definers, the sure and the certain, took over -
and before Moses was off the mountain, a 2nd time, the festooning began,
eventuating in 613 mitzvoth.
By the time the Scholastics finished, the God of Sinai, in the person of Jesus,
sounded more like the God of philosophy and calculus, not the triune I AM.
I take one thing with me, from Catholicism. The existence of the natural law.
I am much more appreciative of the theology of Judaism, than ever I was,
in terms of a theology concerning Christ Jesus.
I do not believe that he was the God/man.
I was horrified when I heard of that child being abducted.
The thought of her terrible suffering, all alone with no one there.
I near died inside, when I heard of this.
Thank you for your kind and courteous replies, Bridge.
This is what I hold as Walking the walk, not just talking the talk.
Kindest regards,
reen*
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steve_b
Guest
You know, Brigde, I appreciate your courtesy and just plain
kindness.
I have ploughed my way thru
[snip]
reen:
Not partaking in the sacraments, that’s a tragedy reen.
reen:
understood
reen:
What gets me, is when I hear of great suffering as somehow
‘justified’ by God’s ‘plan.’ Only profound silence is meet, in
the face of great loss and hurt. Presence, rather than polemics.
“It is truly meet and just…”
God told Adam and Eve suffering was on the way as a result of their disobedience. There was no surprise here. Multiply THEIR disobedience with the disobedience of all humanity. Who is to blame for that? God?
Reen:
Catholicism,
the add-ers, the over-explainers, the definers, the sure and the certain, took over -
and before Moses was off the mountain, a 2nd time, the festooning began,
eventuating in 613 mitzvoth.
By the time the Scholastics finished, the God of Sinai, in the person of Jesus,
sounded more like the God of philosophy and calculus, not the triune I AM.
I would just mention, that in Catholicism, the pope and magisterrium balance out all the philosophical, and scholastic opinions.
reen:
I do not believe that he was the God/man.
I’m sorry the sources you followed pulled you away
reen:
The thought of her terrible suffering, all alone with no one there.
I near died inside, when I heard of this.
reen
I’m with you.
society is surrounded by roaring lions roaming for unsuspecting prey. That’s the world we live in thanks to the disobedience of Adam and Eve. On T.v one night, the news played a home movie of a beautiful little girl about 4 years old who walked down to the edge of the water. The lake was perfectly calm. The mom was taking the movie of her little girl. Within seconds, and no warning, an aligator boiled out of the water in front of the girl, grabbed her, and disappeared. It was so quick the mom couldn’t even react. This movie was played on the news in Florida. Are there people who act the same towards another human being? Absolutely. Who’s to blame for people acting like animals? God? That’s who Adam blamed. Neither Adam or Eve took ownership of their wrong. Given ALL the attributes they had, They blamed everybody but themselves. And paradise as they knew it was gone.
Plan B was implemented by God, but the original deal of living in bliss was gone. From then on, everything is sprinkled with effort and pain.
And there are people today, who blame God just like Adam did.
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reen12
Guest
quote: steveb
I do understand that, in terms of Catholic doctrine,
I am rejecting the ordinary means of salvation.
I truly do comprehend this, steveb.
It is Christianity’s doctrine of original sin that forms the
basis for a theology of grace, sacrament, justification,
righteousness, atonement, and, ultimately, salvation.
Which I find somewhat odd, given the fact that the
God of Israel already grants forgiveness, mercy,
love, and eternal life.
A savior, rescuing man from a non-existent reality [original sin],
while offering a salvation already granted, by the God of Israel,
is redundant in nature.
Standing back and looking at all of this,
Judaic theology has a far sounder claim,
in terms of reflecting Godhead. Yet even here:
quote: reen12
What am I to do, in relation to all of this?
Follow the natural law, acknowledge the one God,
and work to leave the world a better place than I found it.
Grace, sacrament, justification, righteousness, atonement -
are the terms by which salvation is framed, in Christian theology.
Man complicates, not God.
reen
Note: As to the criticality, and the hinge nature - of the doctrine of original sin -
the CCC addresses this. [from the Vatican website}
389
The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News
that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered
to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.
The dominant view, in Judaism, vis a vis original sin:
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html
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Bridge
Guest
Thank you reen, i appreciate that
Let’s see. Is there a chagrined smiley here that i can use? Wait, maybe this will doFor here i was thinking i might be helping to guide you to a fuller understanding of Christian teachings on suffering (by pointing you to writings by CS Lewis and JPII, etc) but instead it turns out you probably could have written the book on it yourself
Thank you for pointing to that essay. I found a copy of it on the net and will read it later. I must confess that i haven’t read much of Lewis other than his Space Trilogy (i greatly enjoyed Perandra) and one or two of his Narnia books.
No, that does not strike me as particularly comforting either. Perhaps to some people it is though, i don’t know. But i don’t think it is unreasonable at times to be angry at fate, at God, the Universe, everything. And i am certain God understands. My feeling is that, as with people, the worst thing is not to be angry at God (or with a person) but to be indifferent. So even if someone is shaking his fist at God at least he’s still looking to God and maybe when he stops shaking he’ll be open to God once more.
But, i agree, the word “justified” doesn’t seem the right word at such a time.
By the time the Scholastics finished, the God of Sinai, in the person of Jesus, sounded more like the God of philosophy and calculus, not the triune I AM.
That’s interesting, i hadn’t thought of it that way before. I’m currently reading Chesterton’s book on St. Aquinas, and i have read some of Summa Theological and Summa Contra Gentiles, but other than that i don’t have much experience with the writings of that period. Still, i had always been led to believe it was one of the high points in Church history.
We have traveled in opposite directions. You away from the Church and myself back toward the Church. Paradoxically, though, we may not be that far apart.
I am not a full-fledged Catholic. I feel the Holy Spirit has guided me to the Church, to the saints and the popes, to their examples and writings, in order to experience and to grow from the great spiritual depth and breadth of the Church. There are so many wonderful things there but at the same time i am not able to fully commit. I believe that much of what the Church teaches is true, at least in a general sense, but i am wobbly regarding some of the specifics and cannot honestly profess to believe in everything that you have to believe in to be a Catholic.
Thus it seems i may always have to admire and love and learn from the Catholic faith at a distance.
And i know it can be hard to believe in Christ as God. It is the specifics that often get in the way of fully believing, at least for me. I do believe that Christ was at the very least inspired by the Holy Spirit but i have not been able to entirely subscribe to everything happening as it was written. Yet, having said that, i believe the Holy Spirit in general has shaped the writings and the subsequent events that allowed the Church and the example of Christ to spread around the world. To guide humanity in a new, better direction.
That, in short, is basically where i presently stand. That the Holy Spirit has guided us in a general direction through the centuries but that the details are sometimes a bit iffy (for i do not believe mankind is yet fully receptive to the Holy Spirit).
However, i feel that is the goal that we are being guiding to. That humanity is being guided to reach the point where we will be more truly and continually receptive to the Holy Spirit.
It is horrible. I do not wish to downplay that and i fear that i may have done so in my previous posts.
Physical life is often very cruel.
And yet despite that many of us have faith that a vast and wonderful spiritual reality awaits us, one that will eclipse our current physical reality.
I know that doesn’t make it any easier for the little girl to go through what she went through. Or for so many other suffering children and adults that we hear about every day. I can only say that i have faith in the goodness and the love of God and hope that somehow the pains and sufferings of this life will be more than counterbalanced by the wonders and joys of the next.
Thank you reen. It has been a very interesting discussion and has caused me to think about this issue much more deeply than before.
Take care and best wishes
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