Why should Bush be impeached?

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2shelbys:
That is the reson they hate Bush. He supports the American way of life and of doing things and they do not.
AMEN!!!
 
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rlg94086:
Based on the example you gave, you are not. The fair tax (which is not a flat tax) isn’t immoral at all. Give it a read sometime.

BTW…the people of Estonia believe Steve Forbes is a genius. They’ve used the flat tax for ten years to much success.
Let me assure you that my deliberate use of quotation marks (as in “flat-taxers”) lumps them all into one known** quantity**.

As for the people of Estonia believing that Steve Forbes is a genius, I’m happy that there is a nation that embraces him. But seriously. I have such low regard for Steve Forbes and his flat-tax ideology, did you really think that Estonia would work as part of a persuasive argument?:nope:
 
Thank you gilliam for explaining impeachment and for establishing that there is no provision for revote.

What exactly is the evidence for treason, bribery, or other high crime or misdeanour committed by Bush? Does anyone know?
 
Estonia wasn’t “part of a persuasive argument”, it was meant to put a smile on your face. You need to relax a bit…maybe take a bubble bath or something.

Anyway, if you wish to discuss a flat tax or national sales tax, it is best moved to another thread, like the one I made just for you…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=95196

Now, go for a leisurely walk, breathe deeply, etc.

God Bless,

Robert
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Thekla:
Let me assure you that my deliberate use of quotation marks (as in “flat-taxers”) lumps them all into one known** quantity**.

As for the people of Estonia believing that Steve Forbes is a genius, I’m happy that there is a nation that embraces him. But seriously. I have such low regard for Steve Forbes and his flat-tax ideology, did you really think that Estonia would work as part of a persuasive argument?:nope:
 
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thestickman:
And you were doing so well for a while there with your acknowlegment that the dislike and low regard held by Mr. Bush is driven by policy differences as opposed to personal fluff…

*You: “Under the notion of staying on topic–do I think folks on the left resent Bush for cutting taxes? Yep.”:clapping:
 
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Thekla:
And you were doing so well for a while there with your acknowlegment that the dislike and low regard held by Mr. Bush is driven by policy differences as opposed to personal fluff…

*You: “Under the notion of staying on topic–do I think folks on the left resent Bush for cutting taxes? Yep.”:clapping:
*
Which is true! Some folks don’t like Bush because of policy:) That said I also agree with 2shelbys’ post cuz the reality is, some folks on the left wouldn’t like Bush no matter what. He does support the American way of life the left has been trying to destroy for a couple of generations.
 
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rlg94086:
Estonia wasn’t “part of a persuasive argument”, it was meant to put a smile on your face. You need to relax a bit…maybe take a bubble bath or something.

Anyway, if you wish to discuss a flat tax or national sales tax, it is best moved to another thread, like the one I made just for you…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=95196

Now, go for a leisurely walk, breathe deeply, etc.

God Bless,

Robert
Robert,

I’m sorry. It’s just that I feel quite passionate about tax policy. Bubbles may be the answer.

Thekla
 
Ani Ibi:
Thank you gilliam for explaining impeachment and for establishing that there is no provision for revote.

What exactly is the evidence for treason, bribery, or other high crime or misdeanour committed by Bush? Does anyone know?
There arent any. The the bar is preety high nowdays-for instance a presecedent has been set that lying to a Federal Grand Jury is not grounds for impeachment.
 
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estesbob:
There arent any. The the bar is preety high nowdays-for instance a presecedent has been set that lying to a Federal Grand Jury is not grounds for impeachment.
Good. That’s what I thought. That’s its for this thread then? :bounce:
 
Ani Ibi:
Good. That’s what I thought. That’s its for this thread then? :bounce:
Impeachment was only one of the options in the original post. Here it is…

"I didn’t want to hi-jack that thread, and I’m not sure if this is the correct forum, but I’d like to know what generated so much hate for Bush. I mean, from the word “Go!” there was so much anger. It seemed to increase when the democrats lost their majority in the Senate, then when we invaded Iraq. But what was the root? Or just why should he be impeached? Or what makes him a terrorist?

Notworthy"
 
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thestickman:
Which is true! Some folks don’t like Bush because of policy:) That said I also agree with 2shelbys’ post cuz the reality is, some folks on the left wouldn’t like Bush no matter what. He does support the American way of life the left has been trying to destroy for a couple of generations.
And now I toss that AMEN!!! right back at you.
 
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Gnosis:
Your bias is so thorough and unsupported that its very difficult to take you seriously. I somehow doubt that the Vietnam war was lost because of protests and lack of support back on the homefront. Have you possibly considered that the Vietnam war was not a just war? That it wasn’t the place of America to invade a foreign country because it felt threatened by its ideology? Or are you simply content to demonize communism as though it were still the 1950’s?

Firstly, the war in Iraq was not a war sanctioned by the world community, mainly, the United Nations. I don’t think anyone can deny that there was serious opposition to it. Secondly, the war was conducted on false premises, the intelligence that was used was not reliable. The result, we have the U.S subverting international law to remove dangerous weapons of mass destruction that are simply not there.
  1. I think you can at least see that the opinion of this war being illegal is legitimate (in the sense that this opinion is not irrational) even if you disagree.
    Look back to when Israel bombed Iraq in the eighties to remove nuclear facilities that it felt posed a national threat. The UN condemned this action as did the US. Consider that America condemned this action when there were actual facilities that could be bombed!!! Forward twenty years later and America justifies an ENTIRE WAR based on vague intelligence with no evidence that, even if there were weapons, they would pose a national threat. How can it condemn Israel, than conduct a war of its own?
Since no weapons of mass destruction have been found, nor any direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the Bush administration has largely defended this war on the premises of human rights. It is literally tearing this nation apart in the name of freedom, in the name of giving them democracy, an ideology. They have successively removed the tyrant Saddam, only to watch it be replaced by the tyranny of anarchy. 2. The United States has invaded a foreign nation in the name of its ideology
3. It is willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent civilians in the name of this ideology

The definition of terrorism is this: Terrorism:
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

The United States is using violence, in an unlawful manner, to place tremendous pressure upon an entire society so as to adopt American democratic values. It is an act of terrorism. In invading the nation is has turned many people, who would otherwise have been civilians, to take up arms to defend their nation against this invasion. As well, countless civilians have died. Furthermore, this is done in the name of freedom and human rights. Just because this does not involve suicide bombers, does not mean it is not terrorism. What if every nation was allowed to invade another country in the name of human rights and spreading democracy? What if we simply invaded every non-democratic nation in the name of our own values? Could nations not be invaded under the guise of bringing freedom, when in fact, they did so for alternative reasons? What if there was no international body that could determine which invasions were legitimate, and which were done for the benefit of the nation invading?
Agree to all, an breath of fresh air in this lynch mob mayhem.

Also, the Bay of Tonkin incident was another setup to make it look like “the enemy” attacked the war ship.

Anything that sells US policy doesn’t have to be legit.

Andy
 
Ani Ibi:
You are suggesting that there has to be a private-company program before welfare recipients can find jobs. That is absurd and demonstrates your covert noblesse oblige and condescension toward welfare recipients.
Yes, that is what I’m suggesting. Since the Right disapproves so strongly of federal programs then let the private companies do it on their own. I take it that your image of a welfare recipient is someone like Rush Limbaugh–someone who has to pinch pennies for a little while but then gets back on his feet. This perception does not take into account the large (and growing) number of welfare recipients with disabilities. These people do not simply need “a break,” they need ongoing assistance. At the very least, it would be humane for private companies to set up programs for these people.
 
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st.jerome:
Yes, that is what I’m suggesting.
I work in a “high-needs” area. I have worked with welfare recipients for at least a decade now. They are quite able to apply for jobs on their own. And do.
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st.jerome:
Since the Right disapproves so strongly of federal programs then let the private companies do it on their own.
Non sequitur. And false dilemma. It is not an either/or situation between the government and the private sector. Welfare recipients are able to apply for jobs on their own.
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st.jerome:
I take it that your image of a welfare recipient is someone like Rush Limbaugh–someone who has to pinch pennies for a little while but then gets back on his feet.
No. Many of my students have been welfare recipients. I learn from them.
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st.jerome:
This perception does not take into account the large (and growing) number of welfare recipients with disabilities.
I have also been advocating for the disabled. Some certainly need ongoing support and care. No question about that. Some have been wrongfully slotted into the category of “helpless” when in fact they want to work, would benefit from working, and would acquire a sense of connectedness by working.
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st.jerome:
These people do not simply need “a break,” they need ongoing assistance. At the very least, it would be humane for private companies to set up programs for these people.
That begs the question of people being capable on their own merits. People are capable on their own merits or at least on the merits of God and on the merits of the gifts which God has given them. In all the scenarios of Jesus healing people, he asks them to do something. Not just sit there and be healed – but to do something. Rise and what? Rise and walk.

Our experience of “programs” up here in Canada has been horrendous. The idea was that welfare recipients needed “programs” to help them get off welfare. So welfare cheques were reduced and arm’s length companies in private industry were contracted to provide “programs” to help welfare recipients get jobs.

Not at decreased expense to the taxpayer, but at enormously increased expense to the taxpayer.

The trouble was that government had to pay for those contracts in some way. They had to at the very least provide incentives for those companies to “hire” welfare recipients. So we had work fare. Which meant that the government paid welfare recipients to provide slave labour to private industry.

But the real jobs weren’t there.

The real jobs have to be there first. Then welfare recipients can find those jobs and get off welfare. The tried and true method for creating jobs is to decrease taxes for corporations.

The government says that more jobs have been created by its “programs.” They jimmied the numbers. Jobs with no pay, part-time jobs, temporary jobs have increased. People cannot live on these kinds of salaries.

And that is one reason, the Liberal government is about to be trounced in the election which is taking place today. People are fed up with being robbed by their elected representatives in Canada.

Instead of decreasing dependence, the government has radically increased dependence – now adding corporations to the dependency cycle.

This whole thinking about “programs” being the answer is about a culture of entitlement. The culture of entitlement goes like this: some people have the privilege of saying what gets to be done and other people have the responsibility of making sure it gets done.

The fundamental question is on what basis are people justified in appointing themselves to the class of those with privilege? And appointing others to the class of those who follow orders? Merit? No way. In Canada it has been the very evolving nuances of Family Compact: somebody else will do it.
 
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AndyF:
Agree to all, an breath of fresh air in this lynch mob mayhem.
"Lynch mob"? You have some special privilege to namecall?

By the way isn’t the topic of this thread about impeaching Bush? Do any of you have anything to contribute as to why Bush should be impeached? Not as to why you don’t like him, but as to how the impeachment laws apply to Bush’s situation?

For what treason, bribery, high crime, or misdemeanour would you impeach Bush?
 
Ani Ibi:
I work in a “high-needs” area. I have worked with welfare recipients for at least a decade now. They are quite able to apply for jobs on their own. And do.

Non sequitur. And false dilemma. It is not an either/or situation between the government and the private sector. Welfare recipients are able to apply for jobs on their own.

No. Many of my students have been welfare recipients. I learn from them.

I have also been advocating for the disabled. Some certainly need ongoing support and care. No question about that. Some have been wrongfully slotted into the category of “helpless” when in fact they want to work, would benefit from working, and would acquire a sense of connectedness by working.

That begs the question of people being capable on their own merits. People are capable on their own merits or at least on the merits of God and on the merits of the gifts which God has given them. In all the scenarios of Jesus healing people, he asks them to do something. Not just sit there and be healed – but to do something. Rise and what? Rise and walk.

Our experience of “programs” up here in Canada has been horrendous. The idea was that welfare recipients needed “programs” to help them get off welfare. So welfare cheques were reduced and arm’s length companies in private industry were contracted to provide “programs” to help welfare recipients get jobs.

Not at decreased expense to the taxpayer, but at enormously increased expense to the taxpayer.

The trouble was that government had to pay for those contracts in some way. They had to at the very least provide incentives for those companies to “hire” welfare recipients. So we had work fare. Which meant that the government paid welfare recipients to provide slave labour to private industry.

But the real jobs weren’t there.

The real jobs have to be there first. Then welfare recipients can find those jobs and get off welfare. The tried and true method for creating jobs is to decrease taxes for corporations.

The government says that more jobs have been created by its “programs.” They jimmied the numbers. Jobs with no pay, part-time jobs, temporary jobs have increased. People cannot live on these kinds of salaries.

And that is one reason, the Liberal government is about to be trounced in the election which is taking place today. People are fed up with being robbed by their elected representatives in Canada.

Instead of decreasing dependence, the government has radically increased dependence – now adding corporations to the dependency cycle.

This whole thinking about “programs” being the answer is about a culture of entitlement. The culture of entitlement goes like this: some people have the privilege of saying what gets to be done and other people have the responsibility of making sure it gets done.

The fundamental question is on what basis are people justified in appointing themselves to the class of those with privilege? And appointing others to the class of those who follow orders? Merit? No way. In Canada it has been the very evolving nuances of Family Compact: somebody else will do it.
I was going to give you a lecture about “how things are in the States,” but then I thought better of it and decided to explore the Canadian situation a little. I found a paper from the “Canadian Association of Elizabeth Frye Societies.” Here’s the link: elizabethfry.ca/confernc/response/01.htm.

I wouldn’t ask you to read the entire thing (I didn’t), but if you could gloss over it, I’d be interested as to where you stand in relation to what these people think.

Thanks.
 
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st.jerome:
I’d be interested as to where you stand in relation to what these people think.
Elizabeth Fry and the prisons is the subject of another thread. The topic of this thread is Why should Bush be impeached?

What evidence for treason, bribery, high crime, or misdemeanour can be brought to bear on making a case for impeaching President Bush?
 
Ani Ibi:
What evidence for treason, bribery, high crime, or misdemeanour can be brought to bear on making a case for impeaching President Bush?
How about this?
Bruce Fein, who served as deputy attorney general for President Reagan, and Norman J. Ornstein, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, suggested on the December 19 broadcast of the National Public Radio (NPR)-distributed Diane Rehm Show that Bush’s approval of the warrantless surveillance program may be an impeachable offense:
REHM: And here’s an email from [listener] in Breedsville, Michigan, who, picking up on the earlier conversation and earlier email, says, “So, again, is spying on the American people as impeachable an offense as lying about having sex with an intern?” Bruce.
FEIN: I think the answer requires at least in part considering what the occupant of the presidency says in the aftermath of wrongdoing or rectification. On its face, if President Bush is totally unapologetic and says I continue to maintain that as a wartime president I can do anything I want – I don’t need to consult any other branches – that is an impeachable offense. It’s more dangerous than Clinton’s lying under oath because it jeopardizes our democratic dispensation and civil liberties for the ages. It would set a precedent that, as [former Supreme Court Justice] Robert Jackson said, would lie around like a loaded gun, able to be used indefinitely for any future occupant.
mediamatters.org/items/200601040002

Sometimes an expert view proves illuminating…

Mike
 
Not if the “expert” is wrong. The president is not acting without counsel, you know. I’m certain they have their constitutional lawyers who have a case laid out for the wiretapping - as previous presidents have done.

Now, if it was clearly illegal, and the president said “I’m going to do it anyway”, then he would be breaking the law and therefore have committed an impeachable offense.
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MikeWM:
How about this?

mediamatters.org/items/200601040002

Sometimes an expert view proves illuminating…

Mike
 
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