Why should Mary be a stumbling block!

[lukewarm]

Mary’s a bit of a stumbling block to me and I’m a Catholic… So I can understand why non-Catholics especially are scandalized by it.

I’ll remain Catholic, but I just don’t pray to Mary it doesn’t feel right to me I only pray to God.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Mary’s a bit of a stumbling block to me and I’m a Catholic…

as it did to me when i was a catholic. i found it extremely odd that mary got a lot more attention than jesus himself. it didnt feel right. jesus was supposed to be sweet, not somebody to avoid in favor of his earthly mother.

 

[YADA]

yeah i know, i know. like i said, i know all about the logical acrobatics. its just that when you say “mother of god”, its not humanity that first comes to mind but the divinity. some things are just wrong no matter how logical they are.

But if you studied history with greater attention; you would realize that the doctrinal question regarding Mary as the Mother of God was established precisely because there were those who asserted that Jesus was not human and those who asserted that Jesus was not God. It was in wrestling with these two positions that the church declared that Mary was the Mother of God - as in Jesus is God. Mary is also the bing from whom Jesus received all that makes Him human. Jesus - One in Being with the Father and Jesus - being of two natures - one human, one divine…

You call that acrobatics, gymnastics…Historically, the Church has addressed these issues…

So are you a follower of Arius [Arianism being; a http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/07256b.htm”]heresy which arose in the fourth century, and denied the Divinity of Jesus Christ?

Or are you a believer in the heresies taught by the Monophysitesand Eutychians - “One Nature”?

In reality you probably are just following the talking points of modern anti-catholic thought that has no sense of history or of Christian practice and thought. You accept those ‘ideas’ you find acceptable or have not questioned and that are part and parcel with your Christian instruction. YOu fight against those tenents that your Christian instruction has identified as “Catholic” inventions…Read some of the writings of the early Church Fathers, the heretics, the ones who fell into and out of heresy and those who answered the herecy challenge…you might learn something about Christianity and Christian faith and practice through the ages…begin with an open mind…

 

[AgnosTheist]

Christ was and is “God with us”. He is the God that was touched, seen and heard. Fully human. Fully Divine. How are you and I ever going to understand the utter profundity of this? Have faith.

The peace of Emmanuel.

I think Evangelicals understand that more deeply than Catholics. Afterall they are never afraid to ask him directly.

 

[AgnosTheist]

But if you studied history with greater attention; you would realize that the doctrinal question regarding Mary as the Mother of God was established precisely because there were those who asserted that Jesus was not human and those who asserted that Jesus was not God. It was in wrestling with these two positions that the church declared that Mary was the Mother of God - as in Jesus is God. Mary is also the bing from whom Jesus received all that makes Him human. Jesus - One in Being with the Father and Jesus - being of two natures - one human, one divine…

perhaps the Nicene creed would have sufficed.

has no sense of history

history dont always abide by reason.

 

[po18guy]

Mary’s a bit of a stumbling block to me and I’m a Catholic… So I can understand why non-Catholics especially are scandalized by it.

I’ll remain Catholic, but I just don’t pray to Mary it doesn’t feel right to me I only pray to God.

We ask her to pray for us, as with all the Saints. I do think some of the devotions can take time away from our relationship with Christ, the ONE intercessor. However, anyone who has ever lived had recourse to Christ. Thus, they still do, since God is father of the living, not of the dead. So, we ask them as well. They are in eternity, which allows them a little more prayer time than we have.

Christ’s peace.

 

[lukewarm]

We ask her to pray for us, as with all the Saints. I do think some of the devotions can take time away from our relationship with Christ, the ONE intercessor. However, anyone who has ever lived had recourse to Christ. Thus, they still do, since God is father of the living, not of the dead. So, we ask them as well. They are in eternity, which allows them a little more prayer time than we have.

Christ’s peace.

I understand the apologetics, I’ve read hundreds of them including “All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed” and ail Holy Queen". And still the devotions and prayers don’t typically sound like I’m asking Mary to pray for me. They sound like I am prayign to Mary and asking her for stuff be it graces, help on my tax audit what have you.

It just doesn’t feel right and I can’t bring myself to do it.

 

[YADA]

I understand the apologetics, I’ve read hundreds of them including “All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed” and ail Holy Queen". And still the devotions and prayers don’t typically sound like I’m asking Mary to pray for me. They sound like I am prayign to Mary and asking her for stuff be it graces, help on my tax audit what have you.

It just doesn’t feel right and I can’t bring myself to do it.

Well of course it sounds like you are “praying” to Mary because to pray means"

Pronunciation: 'prA
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frAga question, frAgEn to ask, Sanskrit prcchati he asks
transitive verb
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE – often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

We are requesting, humbly, to plea our needs to Jesus…

And I am not afraid to address Jesus directly and in fact I [personally] ask, petition, pray directly to Jesus. However just as I ask my husband, family and friends to pray for me, I sometimes ask my hevenly Mother to also pray for me…[perhaps not as often as I should or could]

 

[lukewarm]

Well of course it sounds like you are “praying” to Mary because to pray means"

When I use the term “pray” I’m talking about its usage in victorian England. I’m talking about literal pray like you would offer God, the more modern meanign of the word that we use.

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that any one who fled to your protection, implored your help or sought your intercession, was left unaided.
Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful; O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in your clemency hear and answer me. Amen. *

To me that simply sounds like I am praying to Mary and asking her to protect and answer my prayers. I simply can’t do it.

I was really just making a statement that I can udnerstand the Marian hurdle. I’ve heard all these ideas heck I’ve used them many times to defend the Catholic Church, like I said I have read a ton of apologetics during my years long struggle with Marian dogma, I however just can’t pray to her and not feel like I am doing something very wrong in my stomach.

 

[AgnosTheist]

However just as I ask my husband, family and friends to pray for me, I sometimes ask my hevenly Mother to also pray for me…[perhaps not as often as I should or could]

oh of course. you think its worthwhile to leave jesus for a while to take time to visit his earthly mom and ask her to make the request for you. you think you need backup. are catholic prayers then more powerful because you have a powerful backup?

from a non-believer’s point of view, i think catholic prayers are really not much different from protestants: both still equally fall pray to random chance and coincidence. i wonder how much of bill gates’ success was due to prayers.

 

[Cardinalsong]

I think Evangelicals understand that more deeply than Catholics. Afterall they are never afraid to ask him directly.

As a Catholic-in-training and former Evangelical, I have to disagree with that statement. Being able to go directly to God or asking Mary to pray for us brings me to a much deeper relationship with God than going to God alone. Say, for example, you as a child ask your mother to ask your father for something does that somehow diminish your relationship with your father? Of course not! It just means that sometimes you want to ask your father about something but aren’t sure how to approach him about it so you go through your mother. That is how it is like when you ask Mary to pray for us. It isn’t like God doesn’t hear us. Just sometimes we don’t know what to pray sometimes so we ask out Blessed Mother to pray for us. As a Catholic does that mean you can never pray directly to God? Of course not! If you prefer to go directly to God then by all means keep on praying directly to him. Just because you don’t understand or believe in Mary’s intercession (or the saints as well) does not mean it isn’t true or that Catholics don’t have a deeper understanding of God. I’ve learned it is quite the opposite!
:twocents:

 

[YADA]

perhaps the Nicene creed would have sufficed.

history dont always abide by reason.

Well the Nicene Creed dates to the 4th century [just as the arian heresy]. Therefore the development of the Nicene Creed is from the same discussions that resulted in the Theotokos - Mary the Mother of God.

And history can at times abide by reason…your point?..

Which are you arianist or other? You failed to address the questions…

Is Jesus fully God and fully human - 2 Natures - Human and Divine?
…Is Jesus - One in Being with the Father [and the Holy Spirit - Three Persons - One God]?

 

[AgnosTheist]

As a Catholic-in-training and former Evangelical, I have to disagree with that statement. Being able to go directly to God or asking Mary to pray for us brings me to a much deeper relationship with God than going to God alone.

maybe thats just you. i’ve heard some former catholics say the opposite.

we could easily say ‘to each his own’, but evangelicals are still flourishing with their ‘direct to jesus’ method.

so how can I not say that they have a better appreciation of jesus?

 

[lukewarm]

maybe thats just you. i’ve heard some former catholics say the opposite.

we could easily say ‘to each his own’, but evangelicals are still flourishing with their ‘direct to jesus’ method.

so how can I not say that they have a better appreciation of jesus?

I never got the whole Jesus is my buddy movement. Jesus to me at least when I read the Gospels is very serious, He rebukes, sets straight, and also shows much mercy and foregiveness. But overall his tone is consistenly strong and stern more than anything. I don’t get the impression of Him being a regular Joe I can watch the game with like I get the impression that Evangelicals do. I just don’t get it, if Jesus is God, He shouldn’t be addressed like I were asking my friend to pick me up from the train.

My brains fried long day I don’t even think I’m making any sense anymore, I’m out…

 

[Mannyfit75]

Why should Mary be a stumbling block? Maybe because you call her the Mother of God. That is just so wrong. Yeah I know all about the logical acrobatics (mary mother of jesus. jesus=god, therefore mary mother of god), but its just so wrong. like muslims already find it difficult that jesus is god, and that difficulty is compounded with the idea that God has a mother!

I made a thread on the Mother of God in Apologetic forum. I presented a Scriptural and Historical Support that the Early Christian support it.

Mary, Mother of God or Theotokos means that since the Word of God is Jesus, and this word Became Flesh, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. There are If you wish to continue this discussion go to the thread I provided.

 

[Cardinalsong]

maybe thats just you. i’ve heard some former catholics say the opposite.

we could easily say ‘to each his own’, but evangelicals are still flourishing with their ‘direct to jesus’ method.

so how can I not say that they have a better appreciation of jesus?

I didn’t say they did. It is just that Evangelicals aren’t the only ones who have a better appreciation of Jesus. Just because someone asks Mary to pray for them in no way diminishes their appreciation of Jesus. If anything, it deepens that appreciation that was already there.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think Evangelicals understand that more deeply than Catholics. Afterall they are never afraid to ask him directly.

I beg to differ. We received Jesus Christ weekly at Mass, if possible we would go to daily Mass to received him. It doesn’t get more personal than receiving and taking Jesus into your mouth and fill you up with sanctifying grace. That bring the concept of Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ into action.

or how about those Catholics who pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet? I know many CAF members who are Catholic pray this Jesus centered prayer everyday.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Basically, you are ripping a text out of context. Mary is speaking to the servants at the wedding specific, you are globalizing the statement which is not its intended meaning.

I think she clarified her statement.

Secondly, from our perspective you are placing a human being on a level equal or above Jesus

.

The Catholic Church does not place Mary equal nor above Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church does honor her due to her relationship with her Son. She herself points everyone to her Son. She did say, “My soul magnify the greatness of the Lord.”

We view your devotion to mary as being idol worship.

Devotion Prayers to Mary are spiritual fruits which can be use to strengthen the faith of a Catholic. It is not idol worship since we do not place Mary above God.

When Catholics worship God, we use the term latria. Latria is sacrificial in character, and may be offered only to God. Latria is not used when venerating to the saints.

Dulia theological term signifying the honour paid to the saints.

Newadvent.org makes this even very clear.

…and hyperdulia the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary. St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei, X, ii, 1) distinguishes two kinds of servitus: “one which is due to men . . . which in Greek is called dulia; the other, latria, which is the service pertaining to the worship of God”. St. Thomas (II-II:103:3) bases the distinction on the difference between God’s supreme dominion and that which one man may exercise over another. Catholic theologians insist that the difference is one of kind and not merely of degree; dulia and latria being as far apart as are the creature and the Creator. Leibniz, though a Protestant, recognizes the “discrimen infinitum atque immensum between the honour which is due to God and that which is shown to the saints, the one being called by theologians, after Augustine’s example, latria, the other dulia”; and he further declares that this difference should “not only be inculcated in the minds of hearers and learners, but should also be manifested as far as possible by outward signs” (Syst. theol., p. 184). A further distinction is made between dulia in the absolute sense, the honour paid to persons, and dulia in the relative sense, the honour paid to inanimate objects, such as images and relics. With regard to the saints, dulia includes veneration and invocation; the former being the honour paid directly to them, the latter having primarily in view the petitioner’s advantage. More detailed explanation of dulia and the reasons for which it is shown to persons or things will be found in the articles IMAGES, RELICS, SAINTS. See also ADORATION and WORSHIP

newadvent.org/cathen/05188b.htm

 

[Mannyfit75]

We don’t think the Mary you are describing in all the titles given to her does NOT represent the true Mary of the gospels

.

The title Mother of God or Theotokos as well as others has its sources in Jesus Christ, more than they focus more on Mary. In all Marian doctrines, God’s actions are often put into place. They do represent the Gospel in its fullness and help us better understand the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Is This the Mary of the Bible? (Paperback)
by Dan Corner (Author)

As a former Catholic who in times past prayed the Rosary and wore the Brown Scapular, it is my sincere prayer that all Catholics will carefully examine this book. In it you will read: (1) The present-day official position of Catholicism on Mary and (2) What the Bible says about this. This book is not an attack on the Mary of the Bible. Please remember this important fact. Instead you are being shown that the Mary of the Bible is not the Mary of Catholicism. They are two totally different people, though each share some common characteristics. This evangelistic tool will provide an excellent way to reach your beloved, sincere Catholic friends with the truth about this salvation issue.

I doubt the book you recommend would enlightening my thinking, Daniel. I believe that the Mary of the Bible is the Mary of Catholicism.

You wrote this in good charity so I will give you credit that is due. However, as a Catholic I already established a deep relationship with Our Lord Jesus Christ. I received Him weekly at Mass, and in Catholicism, I find myself in a Covenant Family, with God, as Our Father, Jesus as Our Brother, and Mary as our Spiritual Mother, since Jesus gave us Mary at the foot of the cross. In John 19:25-27, the Gospel writer John gave no name to the disciple (whom we believe in our tradition to be John). Instead he wrote,

When Jesus saw his mother and his disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold your son!” And then to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.”

Since Christians are consider “disciple of Christ” we ought to welcome Mary as our spiritual Mother.

In fact she is the same woman in Revelation 12:1; the woman clothed with the sun. We know this to be Mary because the male child whom she gave birth to will rule all nations with an iron rod. This male child was taken up into heaven and to his throne. This child is Jesus. So in literally terms, the woman is Mary. In the later verses The dragon (Satan) was angry.

Revelation 12:17, “Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandment of God and bear testimony to Jesus.”

My friend, Christians give testimony to Jesus. Remember, in our baptism, we have been made adapted sons and daughters of God. God as our Father. This indeed a large Christian family.

Mary should not be a stumbling block but a source of unity for all Christians.

 

[love4mary]

Problems with Mary have more to do with a lack of education more then anything. So much information has been presented here and in other threads to make it crystal clear (least the way I see it) as to the correct and proper role of our Blessed Mother of God, not to mention countless books written about Mary. “Hail Holy Queen” authored by Scott Hahn is a great book that comes to mind.

But it all comes down to is this,If you do not feel comfortable asking for Mary’s assistance or to walk with you on your faith journey then so be it. But have enough charitable love in your heart to NOT accuse us who DO chose to go to our Lady with the false accusations of “Mary worshipping”.

Like I stated earlier,Jesus CHOSE to come to us through Mary as a babe, He showed us by example that its ok for us to go to Him through Mary. Do we have to?, Nope! but like fr. Corapi once said, “If she (Mary) is good enough for Jesus, she is good enough for us”.