Why should Mary be a stumbling block!

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love4mary

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I just don’t get it!

Mary said to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana,“Do what ever HE tells you”. Sounds to me like she was instructing those servants to be obedient to Jesus.

I guess what I am having a hard time understanding is, if having a devotional love for Mary leads us to a greater Love and Worship of our Lord and Saviour, why is this a problem for non Catholics to understand?

If by following her advice from scripture, we “Do what ever HE tells us”,why is our devotion to Mary as an intercessor rejected as being wrong? Did she not tell us to follow her Son?

Mary showed us by her example to always say YES to God, to trust in Him and believe that what He says is true. When I have doubts, I turn to Mary and her examples of unwavering faith as a model for me to follow.

If one chooses to always go directly to God in all prayer, never asking the Saints and Angels and most our Lady to join you in prayers, that is fine for you, but if we as Catholics choose to enlist the aid of ALL Saints and Angels in heaven (who only do the will of God) why should that be a problem for you?

Jesus is the Only mediator between us and the Father, this we all agree upon, but we as Catholic also believe that God has given us many Saints who share our journey with us and are there to help us, to intercede for us to Jesus.

God bless all on your journeys toward heaven and I pray that you do the same for me.
 
Basically, you are ripping a text out of context. Mary is speaking to the servants at the wedding specific, you are globalizing the statement which is not its intended meaning.

Secondly, from our perspective you are placing a human being on a level equal or above Jesus.

We view your devotion to mary as being idol worship.

We don’t think the Mary you are describing in all the titles given to her does NOT represent the true Mary of the gospels.

Is This the Mary of the Bible? (Paperback)
by Dan Corner (Author)

As a former Catholic who in times past prayed the Rosary and wore the Brown Scapular, it is my sincere prayer that all Catholics will carefully examine this book. In it you will read: (1) The present-day official position of Catholicism on Mary and (2) What the Bible says about this. This book is not an attack on the Mary of the Bible. Please remember this important fact. Instead you are being shown that the Mary of the Bible is not the Mary of Catholicism. They are two totally different people, though each share some common characteristics. This evangelistic tool will provide an excellent way to reach your beloved, sincere Catholic friends with the truth about this salvation issue.

evangelicaloutreach.org/marybook.htm
 
Daniel, I thank you for sharing your views of this with me, but that still really does not address my question (forgive me if I have failed to articulate it in a more clear way), why should it bother non-Catholics that we Catholics turn to Mary, either in example or in prayer, if to us, Mary Points us to Jesus, why is this a bother?

I Worship Only God, Father Son and Holy Spirit, One God. I would never ever EVER place a creature above or even level with the Creator and that includes our Blessed Mother Mary, but as Jesus came to us through Mary, seems to make sense that I can (but dont have to) go to Jesus through Mary.

You chose not to go to Mary for help and that is fine and I have no problem with that, all I am asking is why do non_Catholics have problems if I Choose to as long as we Both reach the same goal,and that is JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOUR. Or did I completely misunderstand your response? (entirely possible for me:rolleyes: )

anywayssss,Gods many blessings to you Daniel Marsh and may we both see each other one day in heaven. 🙂
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Basically, you are ripping a text out of context. Mary is speaking to the servants at the wedding specific, you are globalizing the statement which is not its intended meaning.

Secondly, from our perspective you are placing a human being on a level equal or above Jesus.

We view your devotion to mary as being idol worship.

We don’t think the Mary you are describing in all the titles given to her does NOT represent the true Mary of the gospels.

Is This the Mary of the Bible? (Paperback)
by Dan Corner (Author)

As a former Catholic who in times past prayed the Rosary and wore the Brown Scapular, it is my sincere prayer that all Catholics will carefully examine this book. In it you will read: (1) The present-day official position of Catholicism on Mary and (2) What the Bible says about this. This book is not an attack on the Mary of the Bible. Please remember this important fact. Instead you are being shown that the Mary of the Bible is not the Mary of Catholicism. They are two totally different people, though each share some common characteristics. This evangelistic tool will provide an excellent way to reach your beloved, sincere Catholic friends with the truth about this salvation issue.

evangelicaloutreach.org/marybook.htm
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Since you presume to teach us:

UNDERSTAND, if you will, that Catholics believe the bible is the inspired word of God. Knowing that, please explain:
  1. Just where in the blble, does it SAY that it is the sole rule of faith? It doesn’t. Yet, you believe that.
  2. Just where in the bible does the word “Trinity” appear? It doesn’t. Yet you believe in it.
  3. Since the first generations of Christians had no bible, are they in hell? No, you say? Well, then salvation is not dependent upon the bible, is it? Yet, you believe it is.
  4. Did Jesus command a bible to be written? He did not. Yet you believe and act as if he did.
  5. Why did Jesus, through Paul and John, teach that we must eat His Body and drink His Blood? Yet, you DO NOT believe that.
  6. In John 6, Jesus commands us to take, eat and drink His Body and Blood. Yet you DO NOT.
  7. In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul teaches that we must do likewise. Yet you DO NOT.
  8. In John 21:25, it clearly says that the entire world would not contain the books that would be written about everything that Christ did. Yet you believe that bible alone is evrything.
By your own rules you appear as an idol worshiper because you have rejected the Body and Blood of Christ Himself and placed a book above Him. You defame the church which gave you the precious bible that you now curse it with.

You are still a fellow Catholic - just one who lost faith in Christ’s Body and Blood; one who lost five of the seven Sacraments; one who lost Apostolic succession; one who lost seven books of the BIBLE; one who lost 1977 years of unbroken tradition; one whose church has no leader and thus, no set meaning.

I am praying for you. I ask all others on this thread to please pray for you.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Basically, you are ripping a text out of context. Mary is speaking to the servants at the wedding specific, you are globalizing the statement which is not its intended meaning.

Secondly, from our perspective you are placing a human being on a level equal or above Jesus.

We view your devotion to mary as being idol worship.

We don’t think the Mary you are describing in all the titles given to her does NOT represent the true Mary of the gospels.

Is This the Mary of the Bible? (Paperback)
by Dan Corner (Author)

As a former Catholic who in times past prayed the Rosary and wore the Brown Scapular, it is my sincere prayer that all Catholics will carefully examine this book. In it you will read: (1) The present-day official position of Catholicism on Mary and (2) What the Bible says about this. This book is not an attack on the Mary of the Bible. Please remember this important fact. Instead you are being shown that the Mary of the Bible is not the Mary of Catholicism. They are two totally different people, though each share some common characteristics. This evangelistic tool will provide an excellent way to reach your beloved, sincere Catholic friends with the truth about this salvation issue.

evangelicaloutreach.org/marybook.htm
Click to expand...
I am not a good debater but I don’t feel like studying right now, so here goes nothing. With the text out of context comment, I have to say that almost all the text in the bible serves a much higher purpose, that is why the bible can’t be taken completely literal and that is why the bible is much more than just a book with a story.

Second is that Jesus is God, and Mary (the mother of God) is still just a human. She is special becuase she said Yes to God. Asking her to bring us closer to her son and pray for us is nowhere near idoltry. If we ask mary to forgive us our sins, save us, have mercy on our souls, and all that, yea, it would be bad, but we as catholics don’t do that at all.

One thing though, is that the catholic church, of course, has sacred tradition. You can’t say well this…______… isn’t specifically stated in the bible so it can’t be true. Mary loved her son, and so she wanted the bible to be focused all on him and not on her. I honor Mary because she is the ark of the covenant. Because we all have different plans from God, there is no woman out their like Mary. No Mary, no Jesus.

That my 2 cents worth, but its probably something you have already heard, so my opinion won’t matter much.

Thanks,
Gabe
 
I’m a new Catholic, and I can say with all my heart that I understand the Blessed Virgin now–and wonder why my Protestant brothers and sisters are SO afraid, even hateful, of her.

I hear the argument so often that “well, even Jesus put his mother in her place and spoke rudely to her” (referring to the wedding at Cana). There are many great threads on this topic, so I won’t belabor it.

But my point is this: if, according to my Protestant brothers and sisters, Mary was just another ol’ person, then why didn’t God choose to come down from Heaven via. . . a tree, perhaps? Then He’d be fully God and fully. . . deciduous, I suppose.

But no, He wanted to take on human flesh and form, and why not do it by a woman with whom He found favor and grace? Fully God and fully human, with the sweetest Mother out there who said YES! to her Lord and God.

Works for me. 👍
 
Why should Mary be a stumbling block? Maybe because you call her the Mother of God. That is just so wrong. Yeah I know all about the logical acrobatics (mary mother of jesus. jesus=god, therefore mary mother of god), but its just so wrong. like muslims already find it difficult that jesus is god, and that difficulty is compounded with the idea that God has a mother!
 
twosweetgirls said:
I’m a new Catholic, and I can say with all my heart that I understand the Blessed Virgin now–and wonder why my Protestant brothers and sisters are SO afraid, even hateful, of her.

I hear the argument so often that “well, even Jesus put his mother in her place and spoke rudely to her” (referring to the wedding at Cana). There are many great threads on this topic, so I won’t belabor it.

But my point is this: if, according to my Protestant brothers and sisters, Mary was just another ol’ person, then why didn’t God choose to come down from Heaven via. . . a tree, perhaps? Then He’d be fully God and fully. . . deciduous, I suppose.

But no, He wanted to take on human flesh and form, and why not do it by a woman with whom He found favor and grace? Fully God and fully human, with the sweetest Mother out there who said YES! to her Lord and God.

Works for me. 👍
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It is to childlike faith such as this that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs. Lord, make us childlike. Amen.
 
PERPETUAL VIRGINITY OF MARY
cin.org/users/james/files/talmud.htm

The Perpetual Virginity of Mary
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc2.htm

Martin Luther’s Devotion to Mary Along with virtually all important Protestant Founders (e.g., Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer), Luther accepted the traditional belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary (Jesus had no blood brothers), and her status as the Theotokos (Mother of God):
web.archive.org/web/20030810025622/ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM

The Dormition of the Holy Theotokos
This Greek narrative is one of the earliest witnesses to the “Bethlehem” traditions of the Virgin Mary’s Dormition
(Text from ANF, vol. 8.)

And the Lord remained beside her, saying: Behold, from the present time thy precious body will be transferred to paradise, and thy holy soul to the heavens to the treasures of my Father in exceeding brightness, where there is peace and joy of the holy angels,-and other things besides. And when she had thus prayed, the Lord said to His mother: Let thy heart rejoice and be glad; for every favour and every gift has been given to thee from my Father in heaven, and from me, and from the Holy Spirit: every soul that calls upon thy name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy, and comfort, and support, and confidence, both in the world that now is, and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens.
198.62.75.5/www1/ofm/san/TSmary1.html
 
dosdog said:
The Perpetual Virginity of Mary
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If that is true, then Joseph was more saintly than mary. Or maybe he was gay. Otherwise how can you sleep with a pretty lady and not get an arousal. With an arousal how can you not touch the woman who is your legally wedded wife?

nah maybe he’s gay. or maybe he lost his equipment from some wierd carpentry accident. 😃
 
I think alot of the things that Protestants do not realize is that proper Marian devotion and theology (and I admit not every Catholic stays within the proper bounds) always leads to a higher Christology.

One of the reasons that I so value devotion to the Virgin and hope that all Catholics fervently take the time to bring her into their life of prayer, is that she actually safeguards the divinity of her Son and elevates our understanding of the Gospel’s message of salvation:

Sinlessness
Catholicism understands the Virgin Mother of Christ to be signifying both the Church and the redeemed human soul. Her sinlessness is the first testament to this truth. The sin of Adam’s pride had become a disease infecting the entire core of human affairs and relations. Our relationships to one another were tainted when humanity, in Adam, tainted its relationship with God. Let us not forget that society was raised and built on the foundations of an increasingly rebellious and defiled nature. Psychologically, emotionally, spiritually and socially humanity passed on its defect in its original nature from one generation to the next. There was no hope apart from God’s grace. Mary’s sinlessness was not the result of her own virtue, but of God’s grace. He redeemed her through the sacrifice of Christ which, though occurring after Mary was sanctified, was a moment that draws all of history to itself and therefore can not be subjugated to time. Uniquely, she was chosen to receive the grace of Christ before it was radically made manifest to the whole world in the Gospel.
**Likewise, Catholics are reminded of their own soul, that their own virtue and holiness comes not from their own will, but rather from God who sanctifies them through grace. Like Mary, sanctification offers us freedom from the mess of a society whose corruption is so thorough that each succeeding generation inherits it without hope of having a clean slate. **

The Assumption
The assumption of Mary into heaven. Here the understanding of Mary comes to its most logical conclusion. Representing the redeemed human soul in the salvation drama, death can not touch her for death is but the mark of a fallen humanity. In her assumption the full effect of Christ’s own Resurrection and Ascension are made strikingly clear. In Christ all those redeemed will rise, will have their individuality and flesh sanctified in the beatific vision.

Nothing in Mary’s life can make proper theological sense without Christ. Any proper devotion to the Virgin Mother has the glorification of Christ and a deepening of faith in Him, in mind. In Mary we find the pre-figurement of our own glorious future when the seal of our own redemption will be made manifest.

Thus, we can affirm of the prayer “Hail, Holy Queen”, that Mary is “our life, our sweetness and our hope”

*She is our life insofar as her story is the destiny of every human soul redeemed by the Gospel. She is our life insofar as we make her life our own, imitating her submission and faith to God and her Son the best we can.

She is our sweetness insofar as she is our spiritual mother. Her life is a like a fragrant flower, seeded and watered by God’s grace, the beauty of which draws the faithful closer to Christ in desire to imitate and replicate the deep sense of intimacy Son and mother shared.

She is our hope insofar as her story brings to the light the still unfulfilled promises of the Gospel. Through Mary we continue to have a clear sign as to what to hope for; our own eventual sinlessness and our complete vindication from a world tainted by human sin.*

Modern Catholics see this understanding of Mary as preserving the uniqueness of Christ. While many of the modern “new age” type trends try to paint Jesus as an eastern guru and try to explain that Christ is actually the “true inner self”, that we all will become a “Christ” much like a Buddha the Catholic understanding of Mary corrects that. If a Christian wants to look to their “true inner self” they should look to Mary who is redeemed by Christ.

Mariology keeps a barrier around Christ’s divinity. Reminding us that while we share in His life, death and Resurrection, we can not identify ourselves with him theologically in the sense that we can identify ourselves with Mary. **Mariology helps preserve Christ as Savior- a title that is increasinly being de-emphasized in modern culture. **
 
Our Lady of Sorrows
First Sorrow: Simeon’s Prophecy
“Thy own soul a sword shall pierce.” Today we can unite our hearts torn by sorrows and tragedies with Mary’s sword-pierced heart. The hearts of those whose countries are war-torn, where brother fights against brother, are pierced with the sword of sorrow and anguish. Even within God’s family we see strife today – prejudice still burns churches from time to time.

Second Sorrow: The Flight into Egypt
Mary and Joseph fled into Egypt with Jesus, sorrowing that He, the Son of God,
was threatened and unwanted. Their sufferings are shared by the many refugees in today’s world, forced to leave their native land to wander the earth rejected and unwanted. Children and adults with AIDS are also being rejected from schools and work places where they had developed a sense of belonging.

Third Sorrow: Jesus Lost in the Temple
As Mary and Joseph suffered the loss of Jesus, so many people, young and old, are crushed by a loss of faith in God, consider life unbearable because it has no meaning, yearn to believe and cannot, and are tempted and sometimes do commit suicide.

Fourth Sorrow: Meeting with Jesus Carrying His Cross
As Mary’s heart bled with anguish at seeing her Son tortured and carrying His heavy Cross, many families throughout the world have crushed hearts at what is done to their children – the physical and spiritual deprivations of the slums, the dangers of gang warfare, the unjust arrests, the misery and horror of prison life – all these wring with anguish the hearts of mothers and fathers.

Fifth Sorrow: The Crucifixion
As Mary stood beneath the Cross and watched her Son suffer and die, her heart was united with his, and she prayed for all those who suffer more at the agony of loved ones that at their own – all who are powerless to relieve the sufferings and whose hearts are torn because of their helplessness, like parents whose children are kidnapped and murdered or who watch their adult children die each day, in a sense, because of addictions.

Sixth Sorrow: Jesus Taken Down from the Cross
As Mary sat at the foot of the Cross cradling her dead Son in her arms, her heart was united with people throughout the world who are devastated by the death of loved ones – especially the young who died suddenly of disease, accident, or violence, but also other loved ones whose death leaves a void in life.

Seventh Sorrow: Jesus is Laid in the Sepulcher
As Mary watched her dead son Being placed in the sepulcher, the placing of the rock before the entrance was like the thrusting of another sword into her heart. Now his suffering was over, but her loneliness began. Mary’s heart was united to people deprived of loved ones who have to withstand an indescribable emptiness and live the long, bitter years of loneliness.

miraclerosarymission.org/sorrow3.html
stteresa.net/ourlady.htm
 
AgnosTheist said:
Why should Mary be a stumbling block? Maybe because you call her the Mother of God. That is just so wrong. Yeah I know all about the logical acrobatics (mary mother of jesus. jesus=god, therefore mary mother of god), but its just so wrong. like muslims already find it difficult that jesus is god, and that difficulty is compounded with the idea that God has a mother!
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Oh My AgnosTheist!!! Only His human nature has a mother. God chose this manner of entering the world. If you know better, please contact the Vatican at once - millions of truth starved Christians await your revelation.
 
po18guy said:
Oh My AgnosTheist!!! Only His human nature has a mother. God chose this manner of entering the world. If you know better, please contact the Vatican at once - millions of truth starved Christians await your revelation.
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yeah i know, i know. like i said, i know all about the logical acrobatics. its just that when you say “mother of god”, its not humanity that first comes to mind but the divinity. some things are just wrong no matter how logical they are. :rolleyes:
 
some things are just wrong no matter how logical they are.
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said with only the kindest, gentlest, loving tone of voice Maybe, perhaps, even you? ❤️
 
There is a very clear and important reason behind the title “Mother of God”. It safeguards the complete union of Christ’s two natures.

Jesus is not half God, half man. He is fully human and fully divine. Calling Mary simply “Mother of Christ the human” is seen as erroneously dividing Christ’s human nature from his Divine nature.

What this really reveals is the importance of being educated in Catholicism. Instead of relying on “gut feelings” produced by concepts associated with words (ie. calling Mary the Mother of God “feels wrong”) we should actually investigate a teachings and understand why and how it arose.
 
Jordan_Francis said:
There is a very clear and important reason behind the title “Mother of God”. It safeguards the complete union of Christ’s two natures.
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Is this safeguard really necessary?

i think it does more harm than good.
 
Oh my how complicated people try and make Gods word to us. To my simple brain it is so easy to understand.

Jesus came to us through Mary even though He could have just as easily come to us a fully grown man. The Saviour of the world was just a wee tiny baby completely at the Very Protective mercy of His Mother and also St. Joseph (he is so easily forgotten sometimes). As Jesus grew in bodily size and human wisdom, I am sure He was lead and instructed, in large part by His mother. He trusted her completely I am sure.

Now if Mary was trusted to educate and guide our dear Lord in the ways of faith, why can’t we also trust her to guide and lead us to her Son? To me, its just that simple!

As for our Blessed Mother being the Mother of God, that has been addressed countless times in other threads, but to deny that Mary is the Mother of God the Son is to deny that Jesus is Fully God AND Fully Man.
 
love4mary said:
to deny that Mary is the Mother of God the Son is to deny that Jesus is Fully God AND Fully Man.
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thats really just a matter of perspective. evangelicals deny it and yet they have no problem with their faith that Jesus is both fully God and fully man.

Maybe it should have been a little more technical: “Mary, the Mother of God’s earthy incarnation”. 😃
 
AgnosTheist said:
yeah i know, i know. like i said, i know all about the logical acrobatics. its just that when you say “mother of god”, its not humanity that first comes to mind but the divinity. some things are just wrong no matter how logical they are. :rolleyes:
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Christ was and is “God with us”. He is the God that was touched, seen and heard. Fully human. Fully Divine. How are you and I ever going to understand the utter profundity of this? Have faith.

The peace of Emmanuel.
 
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