Why should we listen to you?

[Linda_Marie]

There are millions of Christians in the world who believe the Bible without any say so from the RCC or it’s supposed authority. No offense but, as someone alluded to, it seems your faith is more in “the church” than anything else.

What you seem to fail to understand is that you have a Bible because the Catholic Church declared those writings to be divinely inspired. Without the Church’s canonisation of those writings, there would be no Christian Bible. Just by accepting that the Bible contains the Word of God, you have accepted that the Catholic Church has the Authority to declare it so.

As I asked before, how do you know that the Bible contains God’s Word and not the Koran. All through the Koran, it states that it is God’s Word. In fact it goes so far as to claim that it was dictated by the Archangel Gabriel rather than written by inspired writers as the Bible was.

You have faith in the Bible. Well, someone must have told you that it is the Word of God so you are really placing all your faith in your teachers’ word that it is so. By what Authority do they teach that?

But, aren’t you taking the leaders in the RCC’s word for it? Simply passing the buck? Your eternal soul depends upon what you do with Jesus Christ. Here’s two things for you to think about:

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Psa 118:8 [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

You know, I can’t take your or the RCC’s word for anything either. People’s eternal souls depend on believing what God has said in His written word, especially the gospel of Christ for Galatians 1:6-9 says if anyone, even and angel from heaven, preaches any other gospel than the one first delivered to the saints, let them be accursed.

Deep down, what or whom are you really trusting?

You read this, yet you do not understand it. The Catholic Church has preserved the Gospel of Christ, through the direct Promise of Christ that the Holy Spirit would protect Her always. If you follow another Gospel than that preached by the Catholic Church, you are following ‘another gospel than the one first delivered to the saints’.

The Catholic Church can trace its heirarchy all the way back to Peter, who was ordained by Christ Himself. Very early after the Resurrection, the Church was known as Catholic and was called such in Acts of the Apostles although most English translations say ‘the church throughout’ rather than ‘the church universal’, but the words in Greek are ‘katho holos’ - ie - Catholic.

I trust in God. I trust that the Holy Spirit is faithful to the Promise and will always lead and protect the Church. I allow that I can be mistaken in my understanding of Scripture. I allow that I can be influenced by spirits not of God. I’ve had some small experience with them since I used to mess around with the occult back when I didn’t believe in God. They can be very subtle and will tell umpteen truths just to get you to believe one lie. The Promise was made to the Church, not to me, so if I have a conflict in understanding, I submit to the Church since She has the protection of the Holy Spirit.

I trust that the Holy Spirit will not allow the Church to teach error, therefore, I trust the Authority of the Church since it comes directly from God. If the Church has ‘lost its way’ then the Holy Spirit did not protect Her and the Promise of Christ to protect His Church is worthless, as well as every other promise He made.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

More the latter though I wouldn’t put it in those terms. I don’t really know why I’m here. I was invited by another Christian a long time ago. But I believe God has given me a burden for Catholics. It is He who will decide whether to use any non Catholic here to reach anyone. There are always lurkers, you know.

You are here because your theology is wrong.

WindGirl, please read everything that Jimmy Akin and Scott Hahn (both Protestant converts to Catholicism who are well-known apologists) have to say about why you should understand Catholicism before you assume you know God’s plan for you here.

 

[ralphinal]

There are millions of Christians in the world who believe the Bible without any say so from the RCC or it’s supposed authority. No offense but, as someone alluded to, it seems your faith is more in “the church” than anything else.

Where did the Bible come from? The book store? The printers?

Where did it come from? Why is it here? How was it made?

 

[Triciacat]

What you seem to fail to understand is that you have a Bible because the Catholic Church declared those writings to be divinely inspired. Without the Church’s canonisation of those writings, there would be no Christian Bible. Just by accepting that the Bible contains the Word of God, you have accepted that the Catholic Church has the Authority to declare it so.

As I asked before, how do you know that the Bible contains God’s Word and not the Koran. All through the Koran, it states that it is God’s Word. In fact it goes so far as to claim that it was dictated by the Archangel Gabriel rather than written by inspired writers as the Bible was.

You have faith in the Bible. Well, someone must have told you that it is the Word of God so you are really placing all your faith in your teachers’ word that it is so. By what Authority do they teach that?

You read this, yet you do not understand it. The Catholic Church has preserved the Gospel of Christ, through the direct Promise of Christ that the Holy Spirit would protect Her always. If you follow another Gospel than that preached by the Catholic Church, you are following ‘another gospel than the one first delivered to the saints’.

The Catholic Church can trace its heirarchy all the way back to Peter, who was ordained by Christ Himself. Very early after the Resurrection, the Church was known as Catholic and was called such in Acts of the Apostles although most English translations say ‘the church throughout’ rather than ‘the church universal’, but the words in Greek are ‘katho holos’ - ie - Catholic.

I trust in God. I trust that the Holy Spirit is faithful to the Promise and will always lead and protect the Church. I allow that I can be mistaken in my understanding of Scripture. I allow that I can be influenced by spirits not of God. I’ve had some small experience with them since I used to mess around with the occult back when I didn’t believe in God. They can be very subtle and will tell umpteen truths just to get you to believe one lie. The Promise was made to the Church, not to me, so if I have a conflict in understanding, I submit to the Church since She has the protection of the Holy Spirit.

I trust that the Holy Spirit will not allow the Church to teach error, therefore, I trust the Authority of the Church since it comes directly from God. If the Church has ‘lost its way’ then the Holy Spirit did not protect Her and the Promise of Christ to protect His Church is worthless, as well as every other promise He made.

Christians believe the New Testament to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Any interpretations thereafter are the product of man, in all his fallibility and sinfulness. Even so, Christ entrusted His Church to all of us–egoists, control freaks, unloving, disloyal, faithless liars–to spread His Word and do His work: “Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us…” (2 Corinthians 5:20) Christ’s message is that of love for one another. * Any* doctrine in conflict with that basic teaching is ungodly, easily evidenced by its absence.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

There are millions of Christians in the world who believe the Bible without any say so from the RCC or it’s supposed authority. No offense but, as someone alluded to, it seems your faith is more in “the church” than anything else.

If they believe the New Testament, they believe the Catholic Church.

When Jesus spoke of the Church do you think he had multiple churches in mind?

What do these verses mean to you?

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Christians believe the New Testament to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Any interpretations thereafter are the product of man, in all his fallibility and sinfulness. Even so, Christ entrusted His Church to all of us–egoists, control freaks and liars–to spread His Word and do His work: “Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us…” (2 Corinthians 5:20) Christ’s message is that of love for one another. * Any* doctrine in conflict with that basic teaching is ungodly, easily evidenced by its absence.

According to your logic, a group of non-Spanish speaking English people can preach the Spanish language to the whole world, and because the Spanish language is intrisically and inherently perfect, the fact that they do not know how to translate the language is irrelevant.

I can tell by your statement that you do not understand the meaning of Church interpretation, because you assume that infallible Church interpreation assumes infallible (rather than egoistic and imperfect) people.

That is a misunderstanding I suggest you clarify. It’s really hard for people to meaningfully debate things when they don’t get the concepts involved.

 

[WindGirl]

If they believe the New Testament, they believe the Catholic Church.

When Jesus spoke of the Church do you think he had multiple churches in mind?

What do these verses mean to you?

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

What I don’t see in there is the Catholic Church.

 

[WindGirl]

Where did the Bible come from? The book store? The printers?

Where did it come from? Why is it here? How was it made?

Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. It came from God, penned by the hands of Christian men and preserved by God who said His word would stand forever. Like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Timothy, etc. Sorry, I don’t believe they were Catholic, no biblical reason for me to think that. I don’t see Catholicism in the Scriptures. If you do, that’s you. I have to go by what I believe God is showing me not by what you say you see.

 

[ralphinal]

Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. It came from God, penned by the hands of Christian men and preserved by God who said His word would stand forever. Like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Timothy, etc. Sorry, I don’t believe they were Catholic, no biblical reason for me to think that. I don’t see Catholicism in the Scriptures. If you do, that’s you. I have to go by what I believe God is showing me not by what you say you see.

Funny, at no time did you mention the actual HISTORY of the preservation of the Bible. Nor did you mention how we ended up with those writings that are in it.

Can you tell me about that?

 

[Figaro_Jones]

Funny, at no time did you mention the actual HISTORY of the preservation of the Bible. Nor did you mention how we ended up with those writings that are in it.

Can you tell me about that?

Let’s take a step back. How do you know the Bible is the word of God in the first place?

 

[ralphinal]

Let’s take a step back. How do you know the Bible is the word of God in the first place?

Wow, you will open with the Ace of spades?

 

[Figaro_Jones]

Wow, you will open with the Ace of spades?

Well, all this kind of internecine sparring between Christian sects never seems to approach the real elephant in the room. And I’m always more curious about the more foundational questions.

 

[JonNC]

Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. It came from God, penned by the hands of Christian men and preserved by God who said His word would stand forever. Like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Timothy, etc. Sorry, I don’t believe they were Catholic, no biblical reason for me to think that. I don’t see Catholicism in the Scriptures. If you do, that’s you. I have to go by what I believe God is showing me not by what you say you see.

“We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them, we should have no knowledge of it at all.”

Luther

Certainly, historically, the pre-schism Church must be credited, as Luther does here, for the gathering of scripture. This is part of our history, as well.

Jon

 

[WindGirl]

I’m not a Lutheran. I don’t follow Luther nor agree with everything he says.

 

[Triciacat]

Let’s take a step back. How do you know the Bible is the word of God in the first place?

The Old Testament contains prophesy which was realized in the New Testament, years before the events actually occurred–the birth of Jesus Christ, for example. This is a rather large question and I give only one suggestion as to an answer.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

The Old Testament contains prophesy which was realized in the New Testament, years before the events actually occurred–the birth of Jesus Christ, for example. This is a rather large question and I give only one suggestion as to an answer.

That’s true, and it certainly does provide internal consistency for Scripture. However, to rely on fulfilled prophecy alone to verify that Scripture is the word of God is circular reasoning.

 

[ralphinal]

I’m not a Lutheran. I don’t follow Luther nor agree with everything he says.

Well, do you know the history of how we arrived at the Bible that we have today? Or by which means the true books were chosen from the false?

Or, as was asked earlier, how you know that the Bible is the Word of God to begin with?

Which came first, the New Testament or the Church?

 

[block]

Backatcha!

It’s an internet message board, Jim. It’s not a technical clearing house for experts in their field.

I mean, we hear all manner of goofy stuff from you and no one questions your right to say it.

Also, especially in the threads you start, I NEVER see a non-Catholic telling you what you should believe. Usually a baited trap is laid for them by you so you can spring some kind of canned apologetic response, but it certainly isn’t ever a case where you are being told what to believe. Rather, non-Catholics are asked why they believe or disbelieve this or that idea and they answer to the best of their ability, which varies.

Sheesh.

Nice!!

 

[Triciacat]

That’s true, and it certainly does provide internal consistency for Scripture. However, to rely on fulfilled prophecy alone to verify that Scripture is the word of God is circular reasoning.

As I said, I gave only one suggestion. The fact that the Bible transforms lives, has a unity of theme pointing to one Divine Author, and contains the testimony of Jesus Christ, are others. Timothy says that “all Scripture is inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16) and so Christians believe Scripture is the truth in it’s entirety, including Christ’s resurrection and the promise of our salvation, otherwise our faith is useless. Is this “proof?” We can have “proof” or we can have “faith.” :bible1:

 

[khutcheson]

Set aside all of the rhetoric. Set aside any notions about Jimmy’s master plan for posting. There is an important set of questions here.

Why sould I trust what you claim as a Christian? You shouldn’t if it comes from me.

How do I know that you are truly a Christian? By the fruit of my faith–and if you don’t know my personally you probably won’t know if I’m a Christian

What makes you certain that you are the correct one?Who said I was certain…I have doubts on some issues and faith on others.

How do I determine who is correct and who is not?

One would hope the Holy Spirit will guide you to the truth you need. However, I will not attempt to debate you into a recognition that I’m right as I don’t feel that’s a remotely effective form of apologetics.

OP’s motives are not irrelevant. This is a baiting thread. I tend to think a little more humility here (humility as opposed to compromise) might make for a more civilized and effective dialogue.