Why should we need revelation if morality is objective?

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STT said:
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Vonsalza:
Non-sequitur. Your conclusion does not follow.

Morality flows from a source, be it state, god, whatever. Not you. Thus objective.

Now which God you want to serve might be subjective, but it’s not an undisputed subjectivity. If you choose Amon-Ra in a society filled with Melqart worshipers, they would argue you were wrong.

To juxtapose on the notion of what subjectivity is, the same society would likely agree that whether cous cous or rice was better tasting is completely subjective.
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It is not non-sequitur.
I said: I meant, people should have the same opinion about objective morality…
You said: No they shouldn’t…
I said: The morality is then subjective…

This is the definition of objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased.

What is your definition of objective?
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This is why we need revelation, because knowledge can be lacking. The world is spherical, objectively speaking. This knowledge hasn’t always been widely understood and possessed. In Catholic teaching, man at some point distanced himself from God, denying His authority and therefore His godhood by rejecting the morality He imposed, desiring to determine morality for himself. By this act man effectively made morality relative.

This “distancing” or separation from God is the essence of the state known as “original sin”. Made was made to know and commune with God. Man’s moral autonomy brings with it autonomy from the source of and purpose for his own being.
 
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Zaccheus said:
Why do we need math teachers if the laws of mathematics are objectively true?

Answer: objective is not the same as obvious, and if truth is objective our powers of judgment are not.
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We found the laws of mathematics. The same for morality if it is objective.
 
o_mlly said:
How do you know the person is a terrorist? If that knowledge is a moral certainty or that person is imminently in the act of murder then the person is not innocent.
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Great. So do you kill the terrorist?
o_mlly said:
The Ban is an abstraction from the Bible which is not an historical book but a theological one. I asked you for a concrete example in which all the circumstances are known or knowable.
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You first confirm that God has authority over lives of innocents. Now you want to say that all stories in Bible are theological? Ok, I buy that. What do you learn from what I quoted from Bible?
 
fhansen said:
This is why we need revelation, because knowledge can be lacking. The world is spherical, objectively speaking. This knowledge hasn’t always been widely understood and possessed. In Catholic teaching, man at some point distanced himself from God, denying His authority and therefore His godhood by rejecting the morality He imposed, desiring to determine morality for himself. By this act man effectively made morality relative.

This “distancing” or separation from God is the essence of the state known as “original sin”. Made was made to know and commune with God. Man’s moral autonomy brings with it autonomy from the source of and purpose for his own being.
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Ok, I buy that we need God for morality. Which God do you follow considering the fact that many religions exist in the world? Do you use reason as a tool to justify correct religion?
 
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I do not think you understand what Revelation is or what the notion that “good and evil” have objective traits even mean. You’ll have to say more about your thoughts on this for us to get down to into the specifics of your misunderstanding as I could otherwise only guess at your meaning. Responding to guesses would not be fair to you.
 
Catholicwife32 said:
I do not think you understand what Revelation is or what the notion that “good and evil” have objective traits even mean. You’ll have to say more about your thoughts on this for us to get down to into the specifics of your misunderstanding as I could otherwise only guess at your meaning. Responding to guesses would not be fair to you.
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Revelation is word of God. Good and evil are what God encouraged and prohibited respectively.
 
STT said:
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fhansen:
This is why we need revelation, because knowledge can be lacking. The world is spherical, objectively speaking. This knowledge hasn’t always been widely understood and possessed. In Catholic teaching, man at some point distanced himself from God, denying His authority and therefore His godhood by rejecting the morality He imposed, desiring to determine morality for himself. By this act man effectively made morality relative.

This “distancing” or separation from God is the essence of the state known as “original sin”. Made was made to know and commune with God. Man’s moral autonomy brings with it autonomy from the source of and purpose for his own being.
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Ok, I but that we need God for morality. Which God do you follow considering the fact that many religions exist in the world? Do you use reason as a tool to justify correct religion?
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Reason and grace in my experience. To find correct understanding rather than justify it. The God I recognize is, amazingly, humble-and loves man lavishly, in spite of the sin, even, which man is allowed the freedom to indulge in while he’s hopefully deciding which he prefers: sin or obedience, evil or good, cold pride/selfishness or love. This world gives us the opportunity to learn of and recognize both, and choose, by the way we live.
 
That’s not what objective morality means. If it depends on consensus then it’s called Moral Relativism, which Abrahamic Theism rejects.
 
STT said:
Revelation is word of God.
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This is not what the Church teaches. The Word of God (or Divine Logos) is the second person of the Holy Trinity, who is Christ. Divine Revelation are things God has revealed to us that could not be known through reason alone. Divine Revelation is contained in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Good and evil are what God encouraged and prohibited respectively.
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Evil doesn’t exist. Evil is the negation of the good. It is not merely “It’s evil only because God says it is.” It’s evil because God is perfectly good and any choices we make toward good are toward God and any we make that are away from the good (though they may still have some good in them) are away from God.

The ten commandments give SOME basis for morality, but the summary of Christ’s teachings is found in the Sermon on the Mount, of which the Beatitudes are central.
 
STT said:
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fhansen:
Yes, and he can, which is why some sin more, some less.
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The question is that why we call a person sinful when he just cannot resist sin anymore.
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Why do we call a man a drunkard when he just can’t resist the urge to drink?

There qare more choices than just “completely helpless to resist every time the urge comes” and “has no trouble at all saying no”.
 
STT said:
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Zaccheus:
Why do we need math teachers if the laws of mathematics are objectively true?

Answer: objective is not the same as obvious, and if truth is objective our powers of judgment are not.
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We found the laws of mathematics. The same for morality if it is objective.
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Mankind as a whole found the alws of mathematics. Each new child still have to be taught. Further there are many, many laws of science we still don’t know.

“Objectively true” d oes not mean :simple and obvious". We still need teachers.

Further, in the c ase of morality we often w ant to do the opposite of what objective morality tells us we must do. It’s harder to learn thing we don’t want to be true; and harder to learn what other people around us are insisting aren’t true.
 
STT said:
Great. So do you kill the terrorist?
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It is your example. What are the circumstances? Once you’ve all answered the questions posed then others may judge the act.
STT said:
You first confirm that God has authority over lives of innocents. Now you want to say that all stories in Bible are theological? Ok, I buy that. What do you learn from what I quoted from Bible?
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The issues are separate. Do you blame God when a tsunami kills innocent persons?

I have always claimed the Bible is theological and not historical. Suggest a new thread to discuss the theology.
 
X and a derivative of X aren’t the same thing.

Non sequitur stands as I see it.
 
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Most cultures in the past have deemed some immoral thing(s) to be moral. Such things include, human sacrifice, infanticide, slavery, forced/child marriage, marital/corrective rape, female subjugation, torture, collective punishment, sexism, racism (the list goes on). Some of these things are only now thought of to be immoral. So I think this should show why revelation is necessary.
 
STT said:
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adgloriam:
Yes off course.
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So in regard to morality, what is left that reason cannot give you and revelation can give?
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To start, that some morals are God’s wish, God given. That other moral virtues, are humanly unattainable without God’s grace. That on some moral issues the church has authority to say what is right and wrong.
 
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