Why should we pray to saints?

[RiderOnTheClouds]

I do not deny at all that saints deliver our prayers to God (Revelation 5:8), but I must ask, why pray to them? They will surely deliver our prayers anyway? Why replace God with something else?

btw I am playing devil’s advocate. I accept the church tradition which surely didn’t come from nowhere, I’m just trying to clear up some uncertainties.

 

[michaelArc]

Well why ask others to pray for us? Is it wrong to privately ask our parents and friends to pray for us?

We invoke the help of the saints because their prayers are more powerful than ours. If God hears the prayers of the saints when they were still on earth, how could he ignore their pleas after they are united to him in heaven?

Charity to help others does not end in heaven. For “charity does not pass” (1 Cor. 13,8) . In fact, it must be even stronger in heaven since they have been purified.

I would recommend searching this question in the forums as it has been asked many times.

 

[angel12]

I don’t know about you, but I need all the help I can get.

 

[RiderOnTheClouds]

Charity to help others does not end in heaven. For “charity does not pass” (1 Cor. 13,8) . In fact, it must be even stronger in heaven since they have been purified.

I see, it is good to encourage the saints to help us then. Thanks.

 

[Seagull]

Yesterday - for instance - was Saint Francis of Assisi day -
His feast day - etc -
I know his story - read many a book about him - and watched many a movie about him -
I used a vacation day from work - and went to mass -
to acknowledge him -
I even have a bird bath statue of him - lol
I was also blessed, years ago, by an actual bone fragment of him -
Anyways, at mass, yesterday,
I remembered him, thought of him,
and said my prayer to him -
to put a good word in for Seagull.

 

[KevinK]

We invoke the help of the saints because their prayers are more powerful than ours.

Is there anything you can point to that backs up this claim? Thank you.

 

[michaelArc]

The short answer is we believe it to be since they are Saints. God loves them and they him. And in their love for God, the saints in desire that all men on earth know, love and serve him. In their love for us they desire that we all come to that love of God, which is the condition of our salvation.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Because if you pray to them, they pray for you directly to God. They’ve made it, they’re in Heaven, they’re right there with God. They are in the best possible position to present our prayers to God, and in so doing add their own prayers for us to the stack.

 

[MT1926]

Is there anything you can point to that backs up this claim? Thank you.

Well James states…

5:16 The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

Wouldn’t you agree that the Saints in heaven are more righteous than you or I?

Prayer just means to ask. The only difference between me asking you to pray for me and asking a Saint to pray for me is that I know the Saint is more righteous than you are. No offense, but we just met.

God Bless

 

[TRON]

I think that it pleases God that the body of Christ (including our brothers and sisters who no longer are exiled in this world - closer to God than any person walking the earth) intercedes for each other and we are given this in the example of the Wedding Feast at Cana.
Jesus knew there was no wine of course. Jesus obviously wanted to provide the wine or ultimately he would have refused. Jesus waited until the intercession of his Mother to provide the wine to give us an example in perpetuity for the intercession of Saints

 

[lanman87]

Well James states…

5:16 The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

Wouldn’t you agree that the Saints in heaven are more righteous than you or I?

Prayer just means to ask. The only difference between me asking you to pray for me and asking a Saint to pray for me is that I know the Saint is more righteous than you are. No offense, but we just met.

God Bless

Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. James 5:16

James is talking about elders and fellow believers praying over the sick not saints who are in heaven to pray for us. I doubt those who are in heaven have much need to confess their sins and pray for one another. To say that those in heaven are the righteous James is speaking of in this passage is a stretch to say the least.

Consider this:

Not once in scripture are we told to ask those who have went on before to pray for us.
Not once in scripture are we told to pray to anyone other than God
Contrast that fact with the many times we are told to pray to God in scripture.

So I ask,

How do you know we are to petition the physically dead Christians to pray for us?
How do you know the physically dead Christians in Heaven can hear us?
Do they hear everything we say or just our prayers to them?
Do they hear prayers to other saints or just the ones directed at them?
How do they hear the petitions of hundreds, thousands, or even millions of different people. Many of which are lifted at the same time?
Why does God listen to them more than us? After all, we are His children and filled with the Holy Spirit and He loves us just as much as He loves the saints in heaven.

 

[Thom18]

Praying (which means to ask) that a saint add their prayers to your own, is a far cry from “replacing” God.

 

[Genesis315]

Just as asking for and offering prayers from and on behalf of one another here on earth strengthens the communion between us and with Christ, so is it even moreso with those in Heaven.

Vatican II, Lumen Gentium:

Nor is it by the title of example only that we cherish the memory of those in heaven, but still more in order that the union of the whole Church may be strengthened in the Spirit by the practice of fraternal charity.(277) For just as Christian communion among wayfarers brings us closer to Christ, so our companionship with the saints joins us to Christ, from Whom as from its Fountain and Head issues every grace and the very life of the people of God.(13*) It is supremely fitting, therefore, that we love those friends and coheirs of Jesus Christ, who are also our brothers and extraordinary benefactors, that we render due thanks to God for them (14*) and “suppliantly invoke them and have recourse to their prayers, their power and help in obtaining benefits from God through His Son, Jesus Christ, who is our Redeemer and Saviour.”(15*) For every genuine testimony of love shown by us to those in heaven, by its very nature tends toward and terminates in Christ who is the “crown of all saints,”(16*) and through Him, in God Who is wonderful in his saints and is magnified in them.(17*)

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[MT1926]

Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working . James 5:16

James is talking about elders and fellow believers praying over the sick not saints who are in heaven to pray for us. I doubt those who are in heaven have much need to confess their sins and pray for one another. To say that those in heaven are the righteous James is speaking of in this passage is a stretch to say the least.

We’ve discussed this passage in the past and it is clear that we don’t agree on the interpretation on this passage. That being said I do not disagree that James is not directly speaking of the righteous in heaven here. However, the question still stands are the Saints in heaven more righteous than us, yes or no?

The question at hand was are the Saints prayers more powerful than ours, not can the saints pray for us. I wasn’t using this passage as a proof text that the Saints can pray for us, you jumped into the conversation on a biased assumption.

So let’s table the question whether or not the Saints can or can’t pray for us and just answer the question at hand. Are the Saints more righteous than the rest of us here on Earth? Yes or No

Then we can go from there and address the rest of your post.

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

So let’s table the question whether or not the Saints can or can’t pray for us and just answer the question at hand. Are the Saints more righteous than the rest of us here on Earth? Yes or No

All who are in heaven have been delivered from the lust of flesh and have been glorified. They no longer battle against sinful impulses or desires and are in the presence of God the father. So in that sense, they are more righteous than us.

 

[MT1926]

All who are in heaven have been delivered from the lust of flesh and have been glorified. They no longer battle against sinful impulses or desires and are in the presence of God the father. So in that sense, they are more righteous than us.

Thank you. That’s all I was trying to establish. The Saints in heaven are more righteous than the rest of us.

Not once in scripture are we told to ask those who have went on before to pray for us.

I’m sure we both believe quite a few things that aren’t outright told to us in scripture. For instance it seems you only believe what is outright told to you in scripture.

Would you might pointing out, in Scripture, where it tells us we are only suppose to do what is explicitly taught in scripture?

I know you will object to my interpretation but…

Revelation 5:8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

How exactly did these righteous elders in heaven happen upon these prayers? It seems to me that we are explicitly told by St. John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God by mentally interceding, how else would they be able to offer them?

Not once in scripture are we told to pray to anyone other than God
Contrast that fact with the many times we are told to pray to God in scripture.

The only problem we have here is the Catholic Church, from the beginning, has always defined the word pray to mean to ask to make a request. It wasn’t until the reformers that the definition was slowly changed to mean only to God. Heck look it up on the Merriam-Webster web site. Addressing God is the fourth definition.

That being said. There are many verses of scripture relating to someone praying/asking someone to pray for them.

God Bless

 

[Retro_Ace]

As I understanding, to ask our brothers and sisters who died in Christ also symbolizes the true immortality that is the body of Christ, that not even death itself can sever our ties just as it could not claim the body and soul of Christ himself

 

[MT1926]

How do you know we are to petition the physically dead Christians to pray for us?

Well for me I read that we are all members of One Body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12

We know death does not separate us from the Love of Christ Romans 8. Which must mean after we die we are still members of the Body.

Then when we go back to Corinthians we see that we are not allowed to tell another part of the Body that “I don’t need you”.

Seeing that we are still a member of Christ’s body after death I would say it is safe to assume that we are not permitted to tell the righteous dead that we don’t need them.

How do you know the physically dead Christians in Heaven can hear us?

See last post on Revelation

Do they hear everything we say or just our prayers to them?
Do they hear prayers to other saints or just the ones directed at them?
How do they hear the petitions of hundreds, thousands, or even millions of different people. Many of which are lifted at the same time?

I’ll be honest I don’t really know, this is a mystery.

That being said the way that it makes sense to me would be to go right back to the analogy that was given to us. We are all members of the Body of Christ and Christ is the head.

Well in a body the Brain is in the head. Nothing happens in the body without the brain. So when we pray to a Saint in heaven (pin prick a finger). That prayer travels up the nervous system to the brain. The brain sends the signal back down to the finger with the necessary information to do something about the pin prick.

We aren’t praying to Saints because we think they can do a better job than Jesus. It’s all Jesus I totally agree. We pray to Saints because Jesus wants us to ask each other to pray for us and wants us to pray for others.

Contrary to current popular belief Jesus didn’t teach us that it’s “Me and Jesus”. He taught us that it is all of us and Jesus.

Why does God listen to them more than us? After all, we are His children and filled with the Holy Spirit and He loves us just as much as He loves the saints in heaven.

As I already said because they are more righteous than us. I would probably also add , from your last post, because their impulses and desires (being pure) would have no self serving purpose to the prayer. Basically, their prayers would be “more pure” than ours.

On a final not I would probably disagree with you statement that God loves us all equally (just as much as). I think unconditionally would be a better term.

And even so how does loving someone more or less have anything to do with how much you listen to them?

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

Would you might pointing out, in Scripture, where it tells us we are only suppose to do what is explicitly taught in scripture?

Well we certainly don’t want to be like the Pharisees who took the Old Testament Law and added countless rules and traditions that went beyond scripture. Jesus pretty much slammed the Pharisees for putting a burden on the people by inventing rules and traditions that went beyond the Mosaic Law. (Mark 7:8-13) Notice the Jesus quotes the Old Testament and then tells them how they go beyond it. Likewise, we should be very careful not to go beyond what God has revealed to us in the New Testament. We don’t want to void the word of God by going beyond what it teaches.

Revelation 5:8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

How exactly did these righteous elders in heaven happen upon these prayers?

Revelations doesn’t say how the elders got the harps and golden bowls full of incense. We do know that incense is symbolic of prayer of God’s people.

Psalm 141:2 comes to mind. David says
“O Lord, I call upon you; hasten to me!
Give ear to my voice when I call to you!
2 Let my prayer be counted as incense before you,
and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice!”

What makes you think the “prayers of the saints” is referred to those in heaven passing along the prayers of those on earth instead of those on the earth directly praying to God and waiting and longing for Christ to return?

 

[MT1926]

We don’t want to void the word of God by going beyond what it teaches.

I’ll take that as a NO you can’t point out in Scripture where it tells us we are only suppose to do what is explicitly taught in scripture.

Mark 7 doesn’t say we void the word of God by going beyond what it teaches. It says they REJECTED the commandment of God. You should read these verses again. Because you are going beyond what Jesus is teaching here.

Jesus doesn’t tell them how they “go beyond it”, you are adding your own theology into the text. Jesus outright says they LEAVE the commandment of Honoring your mother and father and instead of taking care of them in your old age you vow your property to the Temple to get out of taking care of them.

Jesus is teaching here that their actions make VOID the Word of God.

I went into a detailed SCRIPTURAL explanation of why we believe asking Saints in heaven to pray for us is no different than asking your friends to pray for us. How does anything I have shown in scripture VOID the Word of God? Where is the command, old or new, that is being outright rejected by asking others (living or dead) to join us in prayer to God?

Revelations doesn’t say how the elders got the harps and golden bowls full of incense. We do know that incense is symbolic of prayer of God’s people.

Agree, but I don’t see how this changes anything. I already freely admitted that I how this works is a mystery.

But doesn’t that still leave the unanswered question of how and more importantly why would an elder be holding a bowl full of prayers that are ONLY suppose to go directly to God Alone?

What makes you think the “prayers of the saints” is referred to those in heaven passing along the prayers of those on earth instead of those on the earth directly praying to God and waiting and longing for Christ to return?

What’s the difference? Either way the Elders (Who are Saints in heaven) are the ones offering/presenting these Prayers to the Lam (Jesus). So it doesn’t matter where the prayer came from you how do you explain the Elders (Who are Saints in heaven)?

God Bless