Why should we pray to saints?

[lanman87]

I’ll take that as a NO you can’t point out in Scripture where it tells us we are only suppose to do what is explicitly taught in scripture.

Mark 7 doesn’t say we void the word of God by going beyond what it teaches. It says they REJECTED the commandment of God. You should read these verses again. Because you are going beyond what Jesus is teaching here

In the passage in Mark Jesus paraphrases Isaiah 29:13

“‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9
in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

This begs the question. How can we tell the difference of what was taught by Christ and what was doctrines that were the commandments of men?

Where is the command, old or new, that is being outright rejected by asking others (living or dead) to join us in prayer to God?

Why would there be a command in the New Testament to reject something that didn’t yet exist?

What’s the difference? Either way the Elders (Who are Saints in heaven) are the ones offering/presenting these Prayers to the Lam (Jesus). So it doesn’t matter where the prayer came from you how do you explain the Elders (Who are Saints in heaven)?

You have to remember that the Revelation passage points to a fixed point in time. It is describing a ceremony in heaven that proceeds when the seals are opened. Are the prayers of the saints bottled up in golden bowls full of incense until the time comes for the seals to be opened? Because that is what you are implying. And who knows, maybe one of the task of the elders is to gather the prayers of the saints on earth and cast them before the throne?? But there are only 24 elders, how many saints do Catholics lift prayer request toward? And do the elders know what is in the prayers or do they just see a bowl of incense?

On another note, all it says is prayers of the saints. It doesn’t describe what the content of these prayers are. How do you know it is the saints in heaven relaying the prayers of those on earth?

It really comes down to the fact that you believe what the Catholic church commands over what is and isn’t commanded in the scriptures. If you read the Bible from cover to cover without a preconceived notion of praying/asking the saints in heaven to intercede for us with God it would never cross your mind to do so.

 

[MT1926]

In the passage in Mark Jesus paraphrases Isaiah 29:13

“‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9
in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

Sorry I don’t see where you are going with this? Could you explain how this proves your assertion here that Jesus is telling them not to go beyond what is written?

This begs the question. How can we tell the difference of what was taught by Christ and what was doctrines that were the commandments of men?

I totally agree. I have no clue how we can tell the difference without Jesus leaving us a visible shepherd here on earth to guide us in our interpretation.

Wouldn’t you agree that a Man could make his own commandment and base that entire command on his personal interpretation of scripture? Without an authority how could we ever know which person is giving us God’s interpretation and which one is giving us mans?

Why would there be a command in the New Testament to reject something that didn’t yet exist?

I think you are miss understanding Jesus words here. He said you REJECT the command of God. They made up Vowing their property to the Temple in order to keep from having to take care of their parents. In doing so they reject the command to Honor father and mother.

You claim Catholics do the same thing as being done here in Mark. You accuse Catholics of making up praying to saints. Well in order for it to relate to Mark here you need to show the commandment of God which praying to saints rejects. Because this is the context of these verses.

You have to remember that the Revelation passage points to a fixed point in time.

Sorry don’t agree there is no “fixed point in time” in heaven.

As for the rest of it the only thing I’m implying is it is shown that someone other than God has the prayers of the saints in their possession. The rest of your questions are questions of doubt. We don’t need to answer any of those questions to see that someone other than Us directly is presenting someone else’s prayers to God.

How do you know it is the saints in heaven relaying the prayers of those on earth?

Well you can’t have it both ways here. You already made the claim those in heaven don’t need to pray for anything so who’s prayers are left?

If you read the Bible from cover to cover without a preconceived notion of praying/asking the saints in heaven to intercede for us with God it would never cross your mind to do so.

And if you read the Bible without being taught what your church teaches there is probably many of their teachings that would never cross your mind.

So what’s your point?

In the end it all comes down to authority. Do you believe the Apostles gave people the authority to teach or do you believe they gave an illiterate society a book and said knock yourself out?

God Bless

 

[Hereiam]

Why should we pray to saints? To ask them to pray for us.

How often do we ask the living to pray for us?

If we ask for the intercessions of those alive today, it only makes more sense that we ask for intercession of the saints, which is done through prayer…we never ask saints to do anything more than to lift our prayers to the Lord (see Revelation chapter 5)

Peace and all good!

The Church consists of the Church Triumphant (those in Heaven), Church Expectant (those in Purgatory who will be, eventually in Heaven) and the Church Militant (those of us living who are heard by God, and are striving to become eventual members of the Church Triumphant.

 

[lanman87]

Wouldn’t you agree that a Man could make his own commandment and base that entire command on his personal interpretation of scripture? Without an authority how could we ever know which person is giving us God’s interpretation and which one is giving us mans?

Yes, and so could a group of men. Even the men in charge.

You claim Catholics do the same thing as being done here in Mark. You accuse Catholics of making up praying to saints. Well in order for it to relate to Mark here you need to show the commandment of God which praying to saints rejects. Because this is the context of these verses.

I’m claiming that the Catholic church started practicing and teaching things that weren’t taught by Christ or the Apostles just at the Pharisees started practicing things not taught in the Mosaic Law.

Sorry don’t agree there is no “fixed point in time” in heaven.

So you think the seals have already been opened???

Well you can’t have it both ways here. You already made the claim those in heaven don’t need to pray for anything so who’s prayers are left?

I’m saying that if you are correct and the elders “hold the prayers of the saints” then how do you know that these prayers are a petitions for people on on earth?

And if you read the Bible without being taught what your church teaches there is probably many of their teachings that would never cross your mind.

Care to give me an example of things you think would have never crossed my mind?

 

[lanman87]

In the end it all comes down to authority. Do you believe the Apostles gave people the authority to teach or do you believe they gave an illiterate society a book and said knock yourself out?

The apostles did setup elders and leaders in the churches that they started in the cities and towns that they visited. However those people do not have the same authority as the apostles. Those who were setup as local church leaders by the apostles were supposed to continue to teach the gospel message that was delivered by the apostles. They didn’t have the authority to create new teachings or add to the gospel message. There were also supposed to keep the church from adopting new teachings and practices that were not given to them by the apostles.

Praying to the saints started being practiced by the church sometime around the mid 3rd century. Mainly as a result of the large number of Gentile Roman Citizens who came into the church around that time. In Roman society you if you had a request to the government you didn’t approach the Caesar (or even the local governor) directly. Instead you found a patron (who was a member of the ruling class and had a relationship with the Governor/Caesar) to take your request to the authorities. When these new converts came into the church they took the practice of patronage and applied it to God. It made perfect sense to the Romans that the saints in heaven are closer to God than we are and they can act as our patron and take our request to God.

The problem is that this is not what was taught by Christ and the Apostles. Instead, Christ said “Come to me all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest”. He didn’t say, “Go to a patron to bring me your request and you will have a better chance of me meeting your need”.

The writer of Hebrews says " Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace , that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." Not, '“Take your need to a patron and let them approach the throne of grace for you and your chance for getting mercy and grace in your time of need goes up”.

The practice of patronage is much different that the practice of believers (on earth) praying for one another. First of all, praying for each other is an act done in community by people we know and love and fellow believers who are on the same journey and dealing with the issues in life, just as we are. Second of all, praying for each other is a way to bear one another’s burdens. It is a way of loving on each other and supporting each other and showing solidarity with our fellow believers. Third, praying for one another builds our faith as we see God answer the prayers and work in the lives of our fellow believers.

Ultimately, the purpose of prayer is build our faith and draw us closer to God. God doesn’t need our prayers to know what we need. He knows our needs before we ask. Prayer is a means of relationship with God. It is a way to draw near to Him, to rest in Him, and express love and devotion for Him, to confess, to cry out to God, or simply to be still and know He is God.

 

[mdgspencer]

One reason to pray to saints–because God likes it.
Christians often ask someone else to pray for them. It is the same thing asking a saint to pray for us.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

The problem is that this is not what was taught by Christ and the Apostles. Instead, Christ said “Come to me all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest”. He didn’t say, “Go to a patron to bring me your request and you will have a better chance of me meeting your need”.

The critical error you make here is that you assume that Catholics are not also offering up prayers and petitions to God even as we also ask saints to pray for us.

 

[MT1926]

Yes, and so could a group of men. Even the men in charge.

OK? So are you’re saying Jesus intended to leave us without an authority because He knew the Holy Spirit would be unable to guide the free will of man in His Church?

You are the one who asked How can we tell the difference what was taught by Christ and what was doctrines of men?

My answer was because Jesus left us an authority to help us tell the difference. You never really said how you tell the difference. As you already agreed any one man or group of men can make a doctrine of men and base it entirely on the Bible. Therefor, you can’t say you use the Bible to tell the difference.

So the question remains how do you tell the difference?

I’m claiming that the Catholic church started practicing and teaching things that weren’t taught by Christ or the Apostles just at the Pharisees started practicing things not taught in the Mosaic Law.

And when I asked you where this is found in scripture you pointed to Mark 7. Which I already showed that you are taking that verse out of context. Jesus called them on their practice because their practice rejected one of God’s commandments.

If you want to use this verse as your evidence that this was not taught by Christ then you need to point to the commandment that Catholics are rejecting by praying to Saints. If you can’t then you are presenting nothing more than your interpretive opinion. Which you have no authority to tell us that our interpretation of the verses, we use to back up prayer to the Saints, is not the correct interpretation.

So you think the seals have already been opened???

From God’s point of view yes. After all that is the discussion we are having here isn’t it. Prayer through Saints to God vs prayer directly to God. No matter what point in our human time, we are at, that time is ever present to God. Including when the seals are open.

The time argument, from God’s point of view, is meaningless. It doesn’t matter when the seals are open, from our point of view, no matter when it occurs the elders are still the ones presenting prayers to God. Those prayers did not go directly to God.

I’m saying that if you are correct and the elders “hold the prayers of the saints” then how do you know that these prayers are a petitions for people on on earth?

And I’m saying why does it matte? Do anyone other than humans dead or alive pray to God?

Keep in mind I am speaking from the Catholic point of view. We define the word pray to mean ask for something. Which leaves us with two choices. Either these prayers are from the saints on earth who need to ask God for help, or these prayers are from the saints in heaven who don’t need to ask God for anything for themselves, therefor it is only logical they are asking for someone here on earth who still needs salvation.

Once again you are dodging the issue. Why are the elders in possession of prayers that only go directly to God?

Continued…

 

[midori]

Heaven isn’t just one guy and God by themselves in a locked room. Heaven is a community.

The Church isn’t just me and God by ourselves in a locked room. The Church is a community.

But not everyone in the Church is alive on earth— Heaven is the branch of the community that has successfully Figured it Out and achieved what we’re all trying to achieve.

Do you think the people in heaven are all, “Well, I’ve got mine. They can fend for themselves–?” or do you think the people in heaven are cheering us on, and happy to add the weight of their prayers to our own, just like our church community on earth? Except our church community on earth is cheering us towards the abstract, with faith— and the church community in heaven is cheering us towards something they concretely experience in eternity.

The people in heaven aren’t robots, of course. You can pray, “Dear St Francis, please ask God to bring my dog back to life again.” And that prayer’s going to go nowhere-- because it’s contrary to the Will of God. It’s impossible for the saints in heaven to ask God to do something that’s contrary to God’s will. Which is why, whether you’re asking God directly, or petitioning a saint to add their prayers to yours, it’s always healthiest to ask God, “Please help me in this situation according to your will, Amen.”

 

[MT1926]

Care to give me an example of things you think would have never crossed my mind?

I wish I could but I have no idea what you believe. Your religion says Evangelical. There is no Evangelical Catechism that I can read that shows me what all Evangelicals believe.

The only thing I can point to is all Evangelicals claim to each solely teach from the CLEAR teachings of the Bible. Basically, what they believe everyone should be able to see without the bias of someone else’s teaching. Some claim Baptism is necessary, some say no, some say it’s a sign, some say not even important.

How is this possible unless they are being influenced by man made traditions in their churches?

continued…

 

[MT1926]

The apostles did setup elders and leaders …were supposed to continue to teach the gospel message that was delivered by the apostles.

Well shouldn’t these leaders have appointed other men who appointed other men?

Also, how do you know what was delivered to these men? The Bible wasn’t complete yet so these is no way they left them with a Bible to preach from. Also, just look through many of St. Paul’s letters. Most of them are about cleaning up messes about people doing what they shouldn’t be doing.

You claim…

Praying to the saints started being practiced by the church sometime around the mid 3rd century.

Your evidence for this?

Hermas in 80 AD writes about the intercession of the holy angle. Clement in 208 writes about praying with the saints in heaven. Origen in 233 writes those who have fallen asleep pray.

The problem is that this is not what was taught by Christ and the Apostles. Instead, Christ said “Come to me all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest”.

And He also didn’t say come ONLY to me, you are reading that into the text.

He didn’t say, “Go to a patron to bring me your request and you will have a better chance of me meeting your need”.

SO you are saying He doesn’t want us to come to one another and pray for each other. You can’t have it both ways, if you are going to make this claim then you gotta make this claim to the fullest extent. You weren’t given no authority to pick and choose where we draw the line.

The writer of Hebrews says " Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace , that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need ." Not, '“Take your need to a patron and let them approach the throne of grace for you and your chance for getting mercy and grace in your time of need goes up”.

You might want to read that chapter again. Sure this says to approach the throne, but this chapter is also about resting on the Lord’s day. Just as our high Priest Jesus rested. I would argue that there is a two fold meaning to the words… “find grace to help in time of need.” Yes to find grace for ourselves but here’s the issue how do you know which word to stress. If you stress the word “help” then it changes the meaning. To helping others or interceding on others behalf. Which is the perfect lead in to the very next chapter which starts…

For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.

Not, '“Take your need to a patron and let them approach the throne of grace for you and your chance for getting mercy and grace in your time of need goes up”.

I disagree I see nothing here that says we are to approach the throne alone. In fact I see the exact oppoosite.

continued…

 

[MT1926]

The practice of patronage is much different that the practice of believers (on earth) praying for one another.

I totally agree, I would argue that it is more powerful

First of all, praying for each other is an act done in community by people we know and love and fellow believers who are on the same journey and dealing with the issues in life, just as we are.

Totally agree. However, as Catholics we believe those that are gone ahead of us are still in community with us, so I don’t see any difference here.

We can read about the lives of the Saints so we can know that they were fellow believers. So I see know difference.

We can read that they not only took the same journey and already dealt with the very same issues we have and were able to deal with these issues to complete the journey. That’s more powerful. Who do you want to cross the ocean in a life raft with. The guy who never crossed the ocean or the guy that already got to the other side?

Second of all, praying for each other is a way to bear one another’s burdens. It is a way of loving on each other and supporting each other and showing solidarity with our fellow believers.

Yep I’m good with this, community is important. Catholics do this as well.

Just curious though? If you were to ask me to pray for you today, only knowing what you know of me from my writings, would you need a response from me to have the assurance that I am praying for you, bearing your burden, and loving you as a brother in Christ?

Third, praying for one another builds our faith as we see God answer the prayers and work in the lives of our fellow believers.

Totally agree. Would you say it might be possible for someone’s faith to build as they read the documented evidence that God already answered the similar prayers and worked miracles in the lives of our fellow believing Saints in heaven, and ask this Saint in heaven to intercede that God will work the same miracle in their life?

Ultimately, the purpose of prayer is build our faith and draw us closer to God. God doesn’t need our prayers to know what we need. He knows our needs before we ask. Prayer is a means of relationship with God. It is a way to draw near to Him, to rest in Him, and express love and devotion for Him, to confess, to cry out to God, or simply to be still and know He is God.

And how does praying to a Saint knowing that this person already ran the race, already persevered to the end, knowing that God already worked the miracles in their lives to make them good and faithful servants, draw us away from God?

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

Therefor, you can’t say you use the Bible to tell the difference.

So the question remains how do you tell the difference?

Mankind, having intellect, can and will have differing intellectual opinions. This has been true since the beginning of the church. Christ gave us the Gospel message of faith and salvation through him. At first it was handed on verbally by the apostles. God chose them to teach the message of the Gospel and to teach others the message. However, They were warned to be faithful to the message that they were taught by the apostles-Titus 1:9. The faith (Gospel) was delivered once and for all to the saints(genuine follower of Christ)- Jude 1:3.

Even while the Apostles where still alive false teachers started to teach different teachings and call it the Gospel- Gal 1:6-9 Any teacher, preacher or church leader that is not faithful to message of the Gospel or teaches another Gospel is to be rejected.

I say all that to say that God used the early church to compile and preserve the New Testament in order to accurately preserve the Gospel. That is why we say the Bible contains the entire Gospel message (not all that was said but all that God deemed to preserve) and it is free from error. It contains everything mankind needs to be complete in Christ and equipped to do the work God calls us to do. 2 Tim 3:17

And that is why Sola Scriptura exist. It is the belief that the Bible is the only infallible source of the Gospel message that was given to us by Christ and taught by the Apostles. It is the belief that traditions and teachings are not equal with the Bible because they came from cultural norms, practical considerations, and theological speculation(teachings of fallible men). The Bible is infallible but mankind is not.

Because no human is infallible there are many opinions on what the Bible means but there is consensus on what the Bible says (the actual words written down). Therefore, We seek to follow the the plain teachings of the Bible (which are many and which consensus has been formed in all of Christianity), give liberty about things that are disputed (realizing that we are all fallible because we all see dimly as in a mirror) and to act in Love to all who call on the name of the Lord and even those who don’t. This is why you will see Baptist, Presbyterians and Methodist get together and have a Bible Study, support each other’s ministry efforts, and worship together without reservations.

Faith is personal. Ultimately we will all give an account of ourselves before God. Romans 14:12

And while we may disagree on some things we believe, just as those in Rome disagreed on Holy Days, fasting and what is acceptable to eat, we must also remember what Paul told those in disagreement. 7 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

 

[lanman87]

I wish I could but I have no idea what you believe. Your religion says Evangelical. There is no Evangelical Catechism that I can read that shows me what all Evangelicals believe.

Well, consider me a Southern Baptist. What things do we do that aren’t found in scripture?

 

[lanman87]

Totally agree. However, as Catholics we believe those that are gone ahead of us are still in community with us, so I don’t see any difference here.

They are in community as they are In Christ. However, there is no evidence or teaching from the apostles that they can hear and respond to us. That is an assumption

Totally agree. Would you say it might be possible for someone’s faith to build as they read the documented evidence that God already answered the similar prayers and worked miracles in the lives of our fellow believing Saints in heaven, and ask this Saint in heaven to intercede that God will work the same miracle in their life?

Yes, it can and does build our faith to read about faithful Christians. Many years ago we homeschooled our children. I came home from work one day to find my oldest son and my wife in tears. They were reading the story of a missionary who spent his life preaching and serving in a foreign land only to be killed for his faith.

However, why would I ask him to help me when he can’t hear me?

 

[Larryk113]

Here are some of the things I couldn’t find in the Bible.

Multiple baptisms
Altar call
Once saved always saved
Baptism is symbolic only
Church wall teachings
Scripture alone

I’m a former Southern Baptist. One of the things that I noticed most at my church we did things one way and you could literally drive down the road and they would do things differently. Both churches were Southern Baptist. I live in Alabama we have around 13 Baptist churches in our town alone. They can’t agree on some of the teachings. Don’t get me wrong, I love my Baptist brothers and sisters. My whole family is still Baptist but I’m Catholic.

 

[lanman87]

ere are some of the things I couldn’t find in the Bible.

Multiple baptisms
Altar call
Once saved always saved
Baptism is symbolic only
Church wall teachings
Scripture alone

I asked for practices, not doctrinal distinctives.

Baptism- Baptist baptize new believers. Do you believe that is found in the scriptures?
The Alter call- Baptist give an alter call as a means to invite people to “call on the name of the Lord” and come to faith in Christ. Do you believe that inviting people to faith in Christ is found in the scriptures?
Church Wall Teachings- I was raised in a Southern Baptist church in Alabama (maybe we know each other), have taught Sunday School in a Southern Baptist Church and am very familiar with Baptist culture and I have know idea what you are talking about. I even googled it and couldn’t find it.

I addressed Scripture alone in this post

 

[MT1926]

I say all that to say that God used the early church to compile and preserve the New Testament in order to accurately preserve the Gospel. That is why we say the Bible contains the entire Gospel message (not all that was said but all that God deemed to preserve) and it is free from error. It contains everything mankind needs to be complete in Christ and equipped to do the work God calls us to do. 2 Tim 3:17

Sorry I disagree. If it contained everything we needed to be equipped then you would be able to answer my question instead of hammering down on something you already pointed out many times in the past.

It seems to me that you have no problem pointing out when someone else’s religion is wrong but when I turn around and ask you how you tell the difference since there is so many different interpretations you start claiming it doesn’t matter.

You didn’t answer the question how do you know that the people who taught you weren’t the ones to make up their interpretations?

Because no human is infallible there are many opinions on what the Bible means but there is consensus on what the Bible says (the actual words written down). Therefore, We seek to follow the the plain teachings of the Bible (which are many and which consensus has been formed in all of Christianity)

Where does the Bible say here’s a plain teaching follow this one?

give liberty about things that are disputed (realizing that we are all fallible because we all see dimly as in a mirror) and to act in Love to all who call on the name of the Lord and even those who don’t.

You mean unless you are a Catholic explaining, from the Bible, how you understand praying to saints correct?

Sorry to come off so harsh but you fluffed off my question with a non answer and pretend that you are giving liberty to other Christians who you don’t agree with.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

Well, consider me a Southern Baptist. What things do we do that aren’t found in scripture?

Well I just did a quick google search and it says there are 7 different types of Southern Baptists. So that doesn’t really help. Don’t you guys have a document that your members can read that shows what you believe?

 

[lanman87]

Your evidence for this?

Hermas in 80 AD writes about the intercession of the holy angle. Clement in 208 writes about praying with the saints in heaven. Origen in 233 writes those who have fallen asleep pray.

I misspoke. I should have said it became the practice of a large number of Christians in the mid-3rd Century. From what I’ve studied. The earliest indication of any type of communication with the saints in found in the inscriptions in the Catacombs and most scholars put them as being written in the late 2nd Century. Even then you have to take it with a grain of salt as talking to your dead relative is common among people who are grieving. Even the most protestant among us will go to our parents grave and “talk to them”. However, we realize that they can’t hear us but it still helps us in the grieving process. Also, just because Christians practiced things and believed things doesn’t mean it was part of the Gospel that was given by Christ and the Apostles.