Why should we pray to saints?

[lanman87]

You mean unless you are a Catholic explaining, from the Bible, how you understand praying to saints correct?

Sorry to come off so harsh but you fluffed off my question with a non answer and pretend that you are giving liberty to other Christians who you don’t agree with.

You have complete liberty to pray to the saints if you wish. You are not bound by my opinion just as I’m not bound by yours.

 

[lanman87]

Well I just did a quick google search and it says there are 7 different types of Southern Baptists. So that doesn’t really help. Don’t you guys have a document that your members can read that shows what you believe?

Well, that is a new one on me. And I’m not talking about doctrine, I’m talking about practices. Specifically, how we worship, how we pray, and so forth. If you walked into a southern baptist church on Sunday morning what would you observe that “would never cross my mind by just reading the Bible”?

But since you asked. Here is the Baptist Faith and Message as adopted by messagers to the Southern Baptist Convention.

 

[MT1926]

They are in community as they are In Christ. However, there is no evidence or teaching from the apostles that they can hear and respond to us. That is an assumption

No that is an oral tradition. Just because you refuse to accept what has been handed down isn’t evidence that the Apostles never taught it. You are the one making the assumption here. As I already pointed out many of St. Paul’s writings are against heresies.

One why didn’t one of the Apostles write against this?

Two why didn’t the Holy Spirit guide one of the Apostles to deal with this great heresy before it occurred?

I mean it seems like a huge issue from your point of view, you think the Apostles would have dealt with something like this before closing the canon.

However, why would I ask him to help me when he can’t hear me?

How do you know he can’t hear you? The Bible never says the dead can’t hear us?

Jesus communicated with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. And he did this in front of His Apostles. I don’t remember reading Him telling them to never speak to the dead Saints. That would have been a perfect opportunity. However, I do recall that we are to be like Jesus wouldn’t you agree?

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

Well I just did a quick google search and it says there are 7 different types of Southern Baptists. So that doesn’t really help. Don’t you guys have a document that your members can read that shows what you believe?

Okay, I googled and found the article you saw. If you use the same premise you can say that there are a bunch of “types” of Catholics. Liberal, conservative, traditional, cultural, cradle, evangelical, charasmatic, and so forth.

 

[lanman87]

One why didn’t one of the Apostles write against this?

Two why didn’t the Holy Spirit guide one of the Apostles to deal with this great heresy before it occurred?

I mean it seems like a huge issue from your point of view, you think the Apostles would have dealt with something like this before closing the canon.

The didn’t addresses heresies that hadn’t occurred yet. However, they did give us principals by which to test teachings and see if they are part of the teachings of the Gospel.

 

[lanman87]

How do you know he can’t hear you? The Bible never says the dead can’t hear us?

And it never says they can.

 

[lanman87]

Jesus communicated with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. And he did this in front of His Apostles. I don’t remember reading Him telling them to never speak to the dead Saints. That would have been a perfect opportunity. However, I do recall that we are to be like Jesus wouldn’t you agree?

That was Jesus. As you say, Jesus is outside of time and space. You and I are not.

 

[MT1926]

Even then you have to take it with a grain of salt as talking to your dead relative is common among people who are grieving

Yes it is I totally agree. I also don’t believe this is something that is of later origin either. Which is the point I am trying to make.

If talking to your dead relative was common I would bet anything it was happening back then. If it is CONTRARY to scripture, as you claim, then St. Paul would have written about it. The fact that it was common and accepted (Oral Tradition) is the reason it never makes it into his writings. If everyone is already on board why waste ink and parchment teaching what no one disagrees with.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

You have complete liberty to pray to the saints if you wish. You are not bound by my opinion just as I’m not bound by yours.

If it doesn’t matter to you then why are you here arguing that we shouldn’t?

I’ve given my reasons in verses of scripture and you ignored them. I ask you questions and you won’t give direct answers.

If you are just here because you like to argue then what’s the point?

 

[MT1926]

Well, that is a new one on me. And I’m not talking about doctrine, I’m talking about practices. Specifically, how we worship, how we pray, and so forth. If you walked into a southern baptist church on Sunday morning what would you observe that “would never cross my mind by just reading the Bible”?

I’ve never walked into a baptist church but I have been to some local reformed churches. And from being in them I would say they have a practice of worship being a bunch of music, a Bible reading and the Pastor speaking for 30 to 60 minutes about what he thinks that means.

If that is what you do could you show me where that is in the Bible?

 

[lanman87]

If talking to your dead relative was common I would bet anything it was happening back then. If it is CONTRARY to scripture, as you claim, then St. Paul would have written about it. The fact that it was common and accepted (Oral Tradition) is the reason it never makes it into his writings. If everyone is already on board why waste ink and parchment teaching what no one disagrees with.

God Bless

That is the problem with “tradition”. It cannot be verified. It could have been an accepted practice or it could have been something adopted at a later date due to cultural synchronization with religion. Or it could be something that came about as a result of a theologian or group of theologians making a convincing argument from reason and philosophy instead of the truth of the Gospel.

 

[MT1926]

Okay, I googled and found the article you saw. If you use the same premise you can say that there are a bunch of “types” of Catholics. Liberal, conservative, traditional, cultural, cradle, evangelical, charasmatic, and so forth.

I disagree with this comparison. Unless you can show me the binding documents that all 7 of the ones in the article agree to.

 

[MT1926]

That was Jesus. As you say, Jesus is outside of time and space. You and I are not.

Yep but that wasn’t my point my point was that He never forbade them from doing the same.

 

[MT1926]

That is the problem with “tradition”. It cannot be verified. It could have been an accepted practice or it could have been something adopted at a later date due to cultural synchronization with religion. Or it could be something that came about as a result of a theologian or group of theologians making a convincing argument from reason and philosophy instead of the truth of the Gospel.

This sounds like the reasoning I hear atheists use against Christianity and the Bible.

Without Tradition we have no Bible. I know you don’t see it that way but it is only common sense. If the Catholic Church wan’t here from the beginning then we have no verified evidence for the Bible. I think the earliest fragments are dated from like 150 to 250, so how can you have certainty that it is authentic?

How do you know a bunch of theologians didn’t get together and change something?

 

[lanman87]

’ve never walked into a baptist church but I have been to some local reformed churches. And from being in them I would say they have a practice of worship being a bunch of music, a Bible reading and the Pastor speaking for 30 to 60 minutes about what he thinks that means.

If that is what you do could you show me where that is in the Bible?

Well, the psalms are full of music. And Colossians tells us Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Jesus read the scriptures in the synagogues and 1 Timothy 4:13 says Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.

2 Timothy 4 says: Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

Singing and worship are certainly in the Bible, the appeal to read scripture is in the Bible, preaching is in the Bible.

I would like to point out that we are told do many things in the Bible. Worship, Pray, Preach, Teach, Serve one another, help the needy and so forth.

However, the New Testament doesn’t gives us very few specifics on how to do those things. I believe the reason for this is that God knows society and cultures change and wants us to be able to Preach and Teach the Gospel in ways that we can best reach the culture and people around us.

 

[lanman87]

I disagree with this comparison. Unless you can show me the binding documents that all 7 of the ones in the article agree to.

I thought I did. Baptist Faith and Message

Note to add. While not binding as in, if you don’t agree with 100% of this you can’t be a Southern Baptist, this document is considered the statement of faith as what Southern Baptist Believe. All seven types of those churches would use this as a statement of faith just as all the types of Catholics would use the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[lanman87]

Without Tradition we have no Bible. I know you don’t see it that way but it is only common sense. If the Catholic Church wan’t here from the beginning then we have no verified evidence for the Bible. I think the earliest fragments are dated from like 150 to 250, so how can you have certainty that it is authentic?

How do you know a bunch of theologians didn’t get together and change something?

I agree that the catholic church are the ones who compiled and kept the Bible. All of Christianity owes a great deal to the early church for their faithfulness. But they weren’t perfect just as we aren’t perfect.

Edit to add another thought— I have no problem saying the Bible comes from tradition. But I do believe God, in His providence revealed the scriptures to the early church. I also believe the New Testament became the rule by which the early church measured all it’s teaching.

 

[lanman87]

If it doesn’t matter to you then why are you here arguing that we shouldn’t?

I’ve given my reasons in verses of scripture and you ignored them. I ask you questions and you won’t give direct answers.

If you are just here because you like to argue then what’s the point?

I’m fully aware that I’m not going to change anyone’s mind and my mind probably will not be changed. However, sometimes it is useful to see why other’s have the opinion they have.

 

[Larryk113]

Baptism - Baptist baptize new believers. Do you believe that is found in the scriptures

The Baptist will baptize the same person multiple times. I should know I’ve been baptized two times. When I changed from one Baptist Church to the next I entered that church through baptism. The scripture comes to mind: 1 faith, 1 Lord, 1 baptism.

The Alter call- Baptist give an alter call as a means to invite people to “call on the name of the Lord” and come to faith in Christ. Do you believe that inviting people to faith in Christ is found in the scriptures?

Absolutely! I just couldn’t find in the Bible (and if it’s not in the Bible then we don’t do it) a altar call. I asked myself where this tradition came from? Who started it? Why can’t I find this anywhere in the Bible. So I read the early church fathers and found out we don’t worship like they did at all.
This is what got me to begin researching for myself. I ended up a Roman Catholic.

Church Wall Teachings- I was raised in a Southern Baptist church in Alabama (maybe we know each other), have taught Sunday School in a Southern Baptist Church and am very familiar with Baptist culture and I have know idea what you are talking about. I even googled it and couldn’t find it.

At the last Baptist Church I attended the church Wall was a kinda set of rules that you didn’t do as a memeber of the Church. No alcohol, no tobacco, no cussing, etc etc. I have a tendency to dip snuff ( I know it’s bad for me) but I felt like I had to hide it to remain a memeber without being scrutinized. I’m no saint by any means. But I love the Lord with all my heart! Others judgement shouldn’t ostracize fellow church goers.

 

[Larryk113]

That is the problem with “tradition

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

How do you feel about this scripture lanman?
I got this from the KJV Bible?