Why should wives be submissive to husbands?

[LucyT25]

I don’t agree with several verses in the Bible. I don’t feel as a woman that I should be submissive to a man. I also don’t think that a man should be the head of the household. I want to be equal to my husband. Maybe I’m not understanding these passages correctly. Women are equal to men in my opinion, I couldn’t believe in a god who thought otherwise

 

[Lobster_Johnson]

I also don’t think that a man should be the head of the household. I want to be equal to my husband.

These things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[AdamP88]

I don’t agree with several verses in the Bible. I don’t feel as a woman that I should be submissive to a man.

Widely misunderstood verses. If you read them they actually imply a mutual submission in marriage…basically a team effort.

I also don’t think that a man should be the head of the household.

This doesn’t refer to a domineering headship. But a spiritual and sacrificial one. The husband is called to follow Christ by being the first in sacrificing for his family.

I want to be equal to my husband. Maybe I’m not understanding these passages correctly. Women are equal to men in my opinion, I couldn’t believe in a god who thought otherwise

Women and men are equal in their fundamental dignity, this is the teaching of the Church. But women and men are not equal in the way that it is commonly meant nowadays.

They are not equal in ability or in their role in a family. It is just as important to understand the differences between men and women as it is to understand that they are the same in dignity.

My wife and I are equal in dignity. But she can’t be a father, and I can’t be a mother. The Church provides a framework for a model of marriage where differences are complementary. It is up to each individual couple to discover their own specific roles in marriage. Some women naturally fall into the more submissive category, and maybe that’s fine for their marriage. But every marriage is different.

I believe there is definitely a special role for the man in passing on the faith to his kids. This seems to be backed up by recent studies which suggest that the father practicing his faith is the single largest indicator of the future religious belief of his kids.

 

[TheIttyBitty]

In Hebrew, in Genesis, it Is Ezer Kenegdo. Help meet. But it goes much deeper than that, with Ezer being used in other places in the Bible.

The terminology (Ezer Kenegdo) is one of my favorite things, but imagine that you have two hands, correct? Most people only write with one hand. But does that make the less dominant hand less of a hand?..

 

[ExtraordinaryGrace]

If you believe what Holy Mother Church believes then you need to begin at the beginning. In the Garden of Eden God created Adam. After a time alone God saw that Adam needed someone else with him. He did not create another Man but from Adam’s rib he took and made Woman. So we are given revelation that in the beginning God created man, then he saw man’s loneliness and he took from within him and made woman. This relationship is meant to be interpreted as woman came from man’s desire to not be alone. God didn’t make Adam another man for companionship, he purposefully created a woman from his rib. The rib adds stature to man’s height and though I am no theologian I believe God choose Adam’s rib because it being a plentiful bone would not be missed in function and therefore it is logical but also it would make Adam just a little bit shorter, making him a little shorter than when he was just alone with God as sole being and makes him closer to the garden where his new mate is. So we fast forward, Eve is tempted at the Tree of Knowledge BETWEEN Good and Evil. She discovers what is between good and evil and Adam gets in trouble as well because he FOLLOWS her and takes what is not his to take. God finds out and life changes for all of eternity.

In the garden Eve was created for Adam as an instrument of practical and logical humanity; love. Because God is not human he could not maintain the relationship with Adam that he, Adam, needed. God created Eve because man’s nature requires Man and Woman to be complete. She was taken from his rib and people thereafter are birthed from the womb of woman. The fall of man was orchestrated by the devil influencing first woman so that she could betray man. Because the evil one likes to create conflict and discord reparation is needed to repair these grave sins.

You are not and never will be “equal to your husband”. To explain myself, man and woman are NATURALLY two different beings. Mans nature is formed from the image of God and Woman was formed out of necessity for man and God. This is clearly explained in the Garden of Eden. This does not deny women humanity but admits that they are key to humanity. God didn’t make talking animals or create more men for Adam’s company. Woman has a sophisticated role of being a creator but it doesn’t make her God or God bearer. For man to understand life he had to be created from God’s image and woman then created from him so that he would know not to worship woman but God. Woman is an instrument of love from man for man and God.

 

[Psalm30]

@AdamP88 I wish I could give this post an infinite number of likes.

 

[AdamP88]

Aww…thanks. I think you just did in your comment.

 

[ExtraordinaryGrace]

. . . .

“It sounds like you’re saying here that women were created for the sole purpose of pleasing a man and keeping him company. You do realize that this can be so degrading to a woman?”

All men were created for the worship of the Lord. No man is exempt from servitude as it is right and just. Deviating from that leads to sin. If woman’s work be to provide love and companionship to man and serve God then it is God as her creator who will lead her to the vocation that He sees fit. Whether woman be a wife and mother or a Sister and Mother Superior she is always in service. These are sacramental relationships guided by Christ, His Father, and His Church.

“Surely you’re not blaming Eve for the Fall of man?”
I don’t have my catechism on hand but I am “blaming” Satan for the fall of man, Eve participated first under his influence and She, not Satan, influenced Adam to participate. Eve was influenced by the evil of Satan and she influenced Adam. This has nothing to do with personal opinion.

“Neither a man nor a woman needs the other to be complete. Your happiness should not be dependent on you being with a man or woman. You’re worth way more than that. Independence is a value that I think needs to be taken into consideration in this situation.”

I am talking about the practical application of the life of Man. Men and women are both naturally needed to create humanity. Without a Man and without a Woman you cannot have a child.

“This is the most troubling part of this post. Male and female are not two different beings. They are the same being with different sexes and genders. Females are not formed for the happiness or pleasure of a man. Fulfillment, according to Christianity, should be through God alone.”

I didn’t attend a liberal arts institute of sexual degeneracy so I don’t understand what you’re saying here and don’t require further translation. . . .

 

[1ke]

Maybe I’m not understanding these passages correctly.

There you have it.

 

[Annie]

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: 26 That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. 28 So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. 29 For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: 30 Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. 32 This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband.

If more husbands heeded the part that was directed to them instead of focusing on what is directed to wives, we wouldn’t have those toxic and abusive marriages.

Because what it is saying to men is much, much harder than what is said to women. Men are to sacrifice themselves for their wives as Christ, Who suffered and died for the Church, did.

22 Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: 23 Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things.

Notice that here the wives are supposed to submit themselves as the Church submits to Christ.

The way I heard this put was that those who follow Christ put themselves under His spiritual protection. It is like chicks under the mother hen (an analogy actually used by Christ).

When do chicks do that? When there is danger. A hunting animal is much less likely to go after the hen than a chick, right?

In the same way, those who follow Christ (the Church, the body of believers) are under His spiritual protection. They can take themselves out by mortal sin or stay under His protection.

We have a great deal of freedom under God; we are prohibited only things which are bad for us. Many of the things we are supposed to avoid we all agree are bad: stealing, lying, slandering,…

Look at Proverbs 31, starting at verse 10. Not exactly what we think of when we think of submissive wives, is it?

 

[ExtraordinaryGrace]

But you see how this fits into an oppressive patriarchal society? If a woman desires independence or wants to gain status outside of the household, she can always be shot down with the argument that since she’s a woman, her god-given duty is to her husband.

This is due to secular poison seeking to infect the SACRAMENT of marriage. Marriage is a holy institution commanded by God. Both husband and wife are in servitude to the Lord. Family and tradition are the foundations of a Catholic marriage and deviating from that causes many issues. If man is to truly protect his wife, who is also someone’s mother, daughter, sister, and friend, he should have no scruples to maintain her modesty and quality of life. Those in error who create violence in their homes to maintain order are not considered in this statement.

But you agree with this doctrine on some level, no?

Levels? I believe what Holy Mother Church believes, however “problematic” that may be for some.

A human’s purpose is not to create children. That’s a personal choice and not a duty that all humans have. Children are not for everyone.

Man’s purpose in life is to worship the Lord. Through worship he is able to communicate with God and be lead to his true vocation. Marriage is a holy union for bringing souls into this world. Belief in otherwise is grave sin and brings forth destruction to man and his nature, which is to serve God. There are no “opinions” in any of this, no ambiguity, no arbitrary arguments. If you want to prevent life you are not a Christian. Life is administered by God through man and his only role as man is to receive and love. Preventing life is not tolerable for a civilization. Priests take vows of celibacy but they do not prevent life, they sacrifice theirs.

You don’t need higher education (if that’s what you’re referencing) to understand that a woman’s worth is measured by her own standard, and not by whether she bears children or her marital status. Me being a pagan has nothing to do with my opinion on this matter. I happen to be searching for truth in Christianity.

You being pagan has everything to do with this. You are viewing nature through the eyes of secular humanism and not a design of God and His nature. I pray that you find Truth and leave the confusion behind.

 

[AdamP88]

I wish we could put these discussions to rest permanently. Ultimately, the idea that a woman must be a kind of submissive shrinking violet is a misunderstanding of scripture. The submission thing is mutual. Spouses must submit to each other in various ways. Anyone who is married knows this!

Some men and women have an idea of marriage that involves the woman having a very specific role in the home etc. and perhaps being more submissive. That’s fine but it’s not mandated by the Church.

I think as well people misunderstand the marriages of other people when they look from the outside. I know a couple who have a great marriage and are very involved in leadership in the church and formation of young people. Someone else who knows this couple is put off by the dynamic within their marriage and feels that it is unhealthy to have this dynamic of submission.
However I believe that this other person is seeing something negative that isn’t there.

 

[AdamP88]

You’re missing the point, I think. In the past, men have used religion to justify keeping women out of the workforce, marital rape, and countless other things. I’m asking if you understand how this concept of submissiveness can be detrimental to women’s rights.

The concept of submissiveness, understood in it’s proper context, is no threat to women’s rights, and if anything would support women’s rights. The problem is that people talk about it without fully understanding it.

 

[Annie]

Alternatively, if more husbands heeded the counsel of their wives and didn’t think of themselves as having authority over another adult, we wouldn’t have as many toxic relationships.

Of course. But notice that the “men’s instructions” do not say he has authority over her. Instead, it talks about loving her, repeatedly. And being willing to sacrifice his very life for his wife, as Christ did.

I understand your analogy of Christ and his Church, but my problem with it is it compares men to God himself, which I believe is just a way for men to maintain their authority of women. Would you say no to God?

Husbands are supposed to love their wives so much that the wives are happy with their husbands and by extension, God.

Remember too that this is all supposed to fit in with the two of them being Christians and therefore striving for holiness.

I see Christ’s teachings as being like a map for people who want to get to Heaven.

For those who want to go to a different place, such as wielding power over others, not so much. They can read The Prince by Machiavelli.

 

[AdamP88]

Yes. And the head, being Christ, died on a cross for the body. Christ’s model of headship was a headship of service. So if we are to take anything from this, it’s that a man should be first in service and sacrifice for his family.

But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

People focus on the whole submission thing without paying attention to other things that Jesus told us about what it means to lead. The Catholic model for femininity is Mary. And for masculinity is Christ. Out of those two, who had the more difficult task?

People who focus so much on this issue are missing the point. Marriage is ultimately about both people seeking the good of the other. If that happens, then you don’t need to worry about who submits to whom.

 

[AdamP88]

I think men who focus too much on this are in danger of committing the sin of trying to place his wife under his power.
But I think women who seek this kind of relationship run the risk of infantalising themselves and robbing their marriage of their wisdom.

I make all the decisions when it comes to the car and buying a car etc. But My wife tends to make decisions about the home. If my wife was an expert in cars and I had no interest it would be in the interest of prudence to allow her to make that decision.

 

[AdamP88]

I don’t have time to rebut this in detail but the Church teaches equal dignity and part of that is that men and women are both intelligent and reasonable beings. The type of submission you are talking about does suggest that women might have to put their dignity and reason “on hold” to submit properly. I don’t really believe that. In any case, I don’t think the sanctity of my marriage is based primarily on this teaching and it doesn’t really seem to play out in everyday life. I don’t feel the need to think of it mostly.

 

[Theosis]

Perhaps consider your reservations and feelings of discomfort as a grace to dive deeper into your own spirit and its passions. Does the word “submission” upset you? Why?

 

[Mark121359]

Paul is wrong here.

I couldn’t help but chuckle when I read this. Now that’s what I would call a real thread closer. Because if you believe that Paul is wrong, I can’t think of anything that any CAF’er could say that would ever possibly convince you!

 

[JulianN]

I couldn’t help but chuckle when I read this. Now that’s what I would call a real thread closer. Because if you believe that Paul is wrong, I can’t think of anything that any CAF’er could say that would ever possibly convince you!

To be fair, Paul also advocates slaves’ submission to their masters, but we understand that was specific to a time and place.

In marriage, Paul’s teaching on mutual submission is very appropriate, and is often what one sees in a long happy relationship.