Why should wives be submissive to husbands?

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With all due respect, your posts constantly reference very old documents and equate them to the Catechism.

The current Catechism was developed under the auspices of a Cardinal Ratzinger, who was not exactly known as a big modernist. It is the Church’s Universal Catechism and the one that relates to our lives today. You would do well to read and follow it and stop pretending that we all should be reading and following other much older documents, some of which are not even official Church documents. Otherwise, it is hard to have a discussion with you because we live in the modern era. And the Church has given us the Catechism we have now and directed us to use it, so you pushing it aside is a bit disobedient as well.

Further, I would have to ask, are you married, or considering being married? Because you don’t seem to be coming at this question from any sort of practical knowledge. It’s all about stuff you read.
 
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Why is it that when people quote this as a support for submission of wives that they invariably leave out this next bit, which essentially puts even more on husbands.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

The essence of this scripture is not that husbands should exercise authority, but that they should be willing to die for their wives. The emphasis is on love and self sacrifice, not authority.

Also note that the passage is directed specifically at the people to whom he is addressing. He doesn’t tell husbands to concern themselves with their wives obedience.
 
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The emphasis in the paragraph you quoted is for wives to concern themselves with their duty, and for husbands to concern themselves with their duty. He doesn’t ask husbands to obsess about how their wives should submit to them. My issue is that people seem to focus a huge amount on the submission bit but don’t really discuss what it means for a man to be like Christ for his wife. Personally I don’t really think about this at all in my marriage because I’m trying to focus on my own role and striving to be Christlike, and Christ never sought power or authority.
 
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped
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This is my point. He didn’t see equality with God as something to be flaunted or grasped at. He knew he had authority and didn’t obsess over it.

My whole point is that there’s no “set formula” for a Catholic marriage. We could talk about authority and submission til the cows come home but it really has very little bearing on most people’s lives. What we should attend to is our own submission to the will of God and our duties as husbands or wives. The OP really doesn’t have to worry about submission because the culture we live in doesn’t really emphasise that. Catholic teaching on marriage has only really developed recently. It wasn’t until the middle ages that marriage as a sacrament was fully recognised. And many of the great works on marriage and the vocation of marriage have only been written in the last 200 years. I think it’s important to look at all these as a whole rather than focus on the idea of submission/authority. There’s a much broader picture to be seen.
 
BabyWitch said:
You’re missing the point, I think. In the past, men have used religion to justify keeping women out of the workforce, marital rape, and countless other things. I’m asking if you understand how this concept of submissiveness can be detrimental to women’s rights.
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Man’s divine right is worship of the Lord. Man-made laws that contradict that are in error. I interpret marriage as a sacrament and therefore the institution that will care for both the soul and body of husband and wife. Those who are not married according to the sacraments of the church do not have a valid marriage and that is not pleasing to the Lord. God allows these errors so that He can give us Grace. I have no opinions otherwise. I do not identify woman as especially oppressed by being her submissive natural self. Good does not create evil, as pure good and therefore holy, the sacramental marriage is not an abuse in its nature. The evil that man brings in the marriage is not the definition of the marriage. Every sin is forgiven so there is no need for me to have opinions about marriage and what happens in them, it is not for me or any man to change.
BabyWitch said:
So you believe what the Church believes even if you either don’t understand it or can’t properly defend it?
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yes, that is called faith, and faith is a mystery. Apologetics is the explanation of the faith. What I quoted was from the Apostles Creed. “I believe”…it’s an instrumental prayer of proclamation and a prayer for faith that is recited everyday by faithful Catholics.
BabyWitch said:
So you believe that childbearing is a vocation and not a requirement for all women? I’m not arguing against men and women getting together and starting families. I’m saying that a woman is valuable despite all that.
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Yes, marriage is a vocation making motherhood a vocation. As children of God we are to be guided by Him in all things. Woman’s value comes from her service to God and All Man, there is no definition outside of that.

I believe Catholicism is the one and True Faith. If and when man does wrong, which is to commit actions and thoughts against God’s commandments, that is considered sin. I believe in the forgiveness of sins, which means sin is for its end which is repentance/forgiveness through the sacraments of confession and Holy Eucharist, a divine meal of Grace from Christ, His body crucified for man’s sins.

To not believe this is to be outside of faith and to search for it is to want to know God and His Church through His sacraments. As a Catholic you have true divine rights, none of them contradict each other or logic.
 
AdamP88 said:
My issue is that people seem to focus a huge amount on the submission bit but don’t really discuss what it means for a man to be like Christ for his wife.
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I wouldn’t find it as big of an issue if the same guys who write post after post on how women need to submit to their husbands and how we’re at fault for the downfall of modern society, would write equally as much on how they need to die for their wives like Christ did the Church, and how they too are at fault for the downfall of modern society. There seems to be a lot of clamoring for telling me what I need to do, but not on what they will do.
 
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Woman’s nature is submissive. Especially in regard to her biology, which allows her to uniquely receive an infant in her womb and then release it into the world. This very act places her in an intimate and unique relationship with God and All Man.

Submittere, which is the latin root of submit, means to put under, to receive. Being submissive means to put the desires of others before your own.

In the Holy Garden Woman was created out of the need for both Mankind and God. There is no contradiction as far as the logic is concerned; considering woman to be naturally submissive. Issues arise from the political interpretations and we are in a time where Christian tradition is subject to secular law and interpretation. A mother naturally has to put the needs of the child in her womb ahead of hers. In her diet, daily activities, etc. This is a constant theme throughout the life of a woman; constant sacrifice. Faithful who are women submit to Holy Mother Church as they are not priests and vicars of Christ but diligent Mother Superiors, Sisters, Daughters, and sometimes tertiary members.
 
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Annie said:
22 Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: 23 Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things.
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Go back a verse to verse 21 and the context changes dramatically:
Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
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WingedHussar said:
There is no circumstance in which Christ places himself under the authority of the Church
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True. But the passage from Paul doesn’t say “put yourself under the authority of your husband.” It says “be submissive to your husband,” and prior to saying this it affirms that spouses should “be submissive to one another…” Paul himself then goes on to compare the relationship of spouses to the relationship between Christ and the Church. “This is a great mystery…” he says. The Greek word for “mystery” here is translated into Latin as “sacramentum” and is where we get the word “sacrament.” The relationship between husband and wife, therefore, is meant to be an external sign that points to the inner reality of Christ’s relationship to the Church. And just as Christ “submits himself” to the Church by sacrificing himself for her (and also now by remaining present to us in the vulnerability of the Sacrament of the Eucharist) so too are husbands called to submit themselves to their wives by sacrificing themselves for their brides.
 
I too admit to getting irked when hearing someone bash the whole Catholic Church (not saying op is doing this) when they don’t bother to read the whole passage and try to understand its entire meaning.

So instead I just quote the other bible, “My Big Fat Greek Wedding,” which taught us " “The man may be the head of the household. But the woman is the neck, and she can turn the head whichever way she pleases.”
 
Sorry, but that’s a very wrong way of looking at it.

The “two” Popes you refer to (Benedict XVI and Francis) have not changed any Church teaching. They were sent by God to lead us in our times. Your rejection of their leadership is wrong.
 
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As a sacrament, marriage requires that both parties involved submit to the Church, putting the needs of Holy Mother Church ahead of their inner desires. Where those needs meet in reality are keeping God’s Commandments and involvement in the parish community.

As a virtue, charity, which would be the best way to explain submission within a marriage; as both spouses are being submissive to the Church and therefore each other as faithful, becomes universal when the couple is blessed with children as this in turn creates a society and leads to a civilization. Sin against this charity is not to be tolerated. I do not endorse selfish control over individuals, that is satanic. Every man must be submissive, to his family, God, and the Catholic Church. Woman is especially called to this duty in her unique nature. Satan is trying in desperation to convince the world otherwise. Mutilation of the body in the form of transsexualism and abortion are very clear examples of the rejection of Man’s understanding of woman to be uniquely submissive to God and His Nature.
 
Holy Virgin Mother Mary gave birth to Christ. She is universally and eternally unique in being the Theotokos.
 
Claims of insult aside.

When someone has the handle “baby witch” with a pentagram am I supposed to not believe this person is a neopagan or would like to have a persona as such?

Holy Mother Church does not preach modern political tolerance to satanic influences and their foot soldiers. I have no ill will against baby witch and consider claims otherwise a misread. As a Catholic I do not believe in violence or false claims against another. Considering I received no feedback of such from the poster your charity in their defense is misplaced. I am bringing truth, not trivial niceties.
 
So you don’t have a sacramental marriage?

What I am saying only applies if the person reading is living or interested in living a full life in Christ’s Church. Anyone in error can repair that but this is not essentially for those not paired with another Catholic or without interest in having a fully unified Catholic family.

I know Catholics who have married non Catholics. Those without dispensation lived outside of the Church and Her Sacraments a few without even knowing it. Those who knew and wanted to do something about it have and are living a full life in the Church with their spouse.

Marriage is arranged by God. He pairs us with those who need our charity most. When we deny God His natural right to bless us and make a mockery of His sacrament horror and destruction takes place. Millions and millions of marriages in the world are in fundamental error to God and His plan for us, that will never stop Him from granting us grace and charity unto one another. God is merciful and loves deeper and wiser than any human can. Like I said, any marriage in error can correct itself. We cannot dictate society on our failures and sins but only on that which pleases God.
 
so you want me to lie and not tell the truth? Is the word witch and the image of a pentagram an indication of pagan worship or isn’t it?
 
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