Why shouldn't Catholics learn Latin?

[1way]

yes, it useful to compare apples to oranges. much can be learned.

one way, or another, you’ll make your feelings clear, 1way. I’m sure of it!

I tried to edit the post above … but it timed out.
This is the edit/continuation…

Dear friend … I do know how to stand up for what I believe in. If I didnt I would have been a skinny, bruised Irish kid.
…I could not help noticing that you have fairly strong opinions as well …

The point of my response was that the heart is the only focus of the Lord and his Blessed Mother in every instance of surpernatural intervention in history. Every time … no exception.

The Samaritan Woman at the well was given a revelation that I believe can be applied to the Latin question.

A similar controversy existed then as well … about the correct way to worship God …

Perceiving that Jesus had an understanding of spiritual things she posed the dilemma in the hope of clearing up the matter.
His response to her question was not what she wanted or expected … so she deferred to a higher authority…
To which Jesus responded …“the buck stops here”. (paraphrased)

…

“Sir,” the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet.

20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

…23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.”

My point.
Man is concerned with the externals. God’s sole focus is the heart. True worship has nothing in the slightest to do with the language of the worshiper.

 

[maurin]

I tried to edit the post above … but it timed out.
This is the edit/continuation…

Dear friend … I do know how to stand up for what I believe in. If I didnt I would have been a skinny, bruised Irish kid.
…I could not help noticing that you have fairly strong opinions as well …

The point of my response was that the heart is the only focus of the Lord and his Blessed Mother in every instance of surpernatural intervention in history. Every time … no exception.

My point.
Man is concerned with the externals. God’s sole focus is the heart. True worship has nothing in the slightest to do with the language of the worshiper.

I don’t agree with you (and here I refer ONLY to the Language of the Liturgy and your claim, not your talk about the heart), and neither am I saying you are wrong, 1way. God is also concerned with the externals, 1way, or why would He have become Incarnate? However my tack on the conversation revolves only around the following:

I also opted in for 2 years of Latin in school. I had a similar experience to yours. I was an altar boy and learned all of the responses in Latin. Immediately following my training the Latin was replaced by English.
The change was contreversial but the overwhelming response was a sense that the Church was listening to the people. There had been a growing sense among the Catholic community that I grew up in that those in authority had become distant, defensive, authoritarian, uncaring. The change to the vernacular was received as a breath of fresh air. It felt like open arms that embraced those who were growing weary of wrote meaningless ritual.

so overnight those same authorities who were yesterday distant, defensive, authoritarian and uncaring became close, non-defensive, collegial and caring? all because the Mass was in the vernacular?

Is anyone else confused by the above post?

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

Ego operor ignoro tamen quoque scisco quidne quoque perceptum Cupiditas?
Maranantha, Erchomai Kyrios

 

[1way]

I don’t agree with you (and here I refer ONLY to the Language of the Liturgy and your claim, not your talk about the heart), and neither am I saying you are wrong, 1way. God is also concerned with the externals, 1way, or why would He have become Incarnate? However my tack on the conversation revolves only around the following:

One of Jesus goals in becoming a man was to bring clarity.
Externals are important when they are in agreement with the truth …but often they distract from the point… and are made to be more important than the purpose they are intended to serve.
Jesus picked grain on the Sabbath. He healed on the Sabbath. He did it to illustrate that the Sabbath was made for man and not the opposite.

I think V2 made the right decision when they gave people the freedom to worship in the vernacular. …Any man made external that becomes a hindrance to true worship should be open to change …IMHO.
… and, as I said previously, There is ample opportunity for Catholics to participate in either form. I believe that God accepts both with the same respect and joy.​

Originally Posted by maurin:
" so overnight those same authorities who were yesterday distant, defensive, authoritarian and uncaring became close, non-defensive, collegial and caring? all because the Mass was in the vernacular? "

This was my response:

Originally Posted by 1way:
“The change to the vernacular was not the Holy Grail any more than sticking with Latin would be.
The response to the change was simply a pleasant surprise to most of the Catholics in the Pittsburgh community that I grew up in. It was evaluated as a step in the right direction at a time when people were needing some sign of humanity from what was precieved to be a very stiff and judgemental Clergy.
I attended Mass in several parishes during those years. The main topic of discussion was how the Homily was always devoted in part to humiliating the people in the back of the church ready to scoot ASAP.
The joke was … the beatings will continue until morale improves. Obviously the strategy never worked … an in fact the Priests simply contributed to an atmosphere that made “solemn joy” … more solemn … not so much joy for the rest of us people who would not get caught dead in the back of the church.
The multitude of my Irish Catholic uncles and aunts and family friends would repeat the same mantra …no matter which parish they attended.
" The Priests just seems to have no experience in the real world to draw from.”
People need to first trust in order to have the right heart for obedience.
They need to feel cared for and about.
Changing to the vernacular was only one step but that step was huge in an environment where there were a lot of rules but no human bond.

The Catholic Church Is a fine old institution.
… but the reality back then was that most people I was acquainted with were feeling that they were just stuck in an old institution … with a cranky old headmaster."

 

[maurin]

1way,

to point #1 in your above post: ok.

to point #2: you still haven’t answered my question. repeating verbatim the same answer which gave rise to my question, still doesn’t answer my question, which of course has everything to do with point #1 to which I refer in this post.

thank you, though, for your gentlemanly response. In a way you have given your answer, so we need not continue this particular conversation if it pleases you not to continue it.

 

[Joannm]

On the serious side to. Muslims are required to know Arabic as well as their native tongue, and since Islam is growing at a rapid rate. Those who were once Roman Catholics who are converting to Islam, are learning compulsory Arabic just to read the and pray the Quran. So shouldn’t Rome make it compulsory that Catholics learn Latin to pray and celebrate Mass in Latin. Are the Muslims whining that they shouldn’t have to learn Arabic. I seriously doubt it.

Muslims are not required to know Arabic, the just have to be able to pray in it, with or without understanding. I have had several Muslims in RCIA. The two most recent were from Iran, where they speak Persian. We had a great discussion one day about how the Quran could only be read in Arabic and most people in Iran cannot speak it. They spoke how Christitianity is so wonderful that the Scriptures are translated into native languages. They said they never knew what they were reading in the Quran or what the prayers meant. They now love praying in English and were both looking for copies of the Scriptures in Persian.

 

[maurin]

… and, as I said previously, There is ample opportunity for Catholics to participate in either form. ."

ummmmm, no, 1way, there is not. Within the 5 hour drive between 2 Dioceses, north to south and east to west, 1 of them being an Archdiocese, if it weren’t for the SSPX, there would only be one Holy Traditional Mass celebrated in each Diocese: I wouldn’t call that ample, or convenient for many who desire the Holy Mass of the ages. According to the District Superior of the FSSP, in a letter I received from him last year enquiring why the FSSP is not active in my diocese or the Archdiocese, the FSSP has not been invited by either my Bishop or the Archbishop.

 

[1way]

ummmmm, no, 1way, there is not. Within the 5 hour drive between 2 Dioceses, north to south and east to west, 1 of them being an Archdiocese, if it weren’t for the SSPX, there would only be one Holy Traditional Mass celebrated in each Diocese: I wouldn’t call that ample, or convenient for many who desire the Holy Mass of the ages. According to the District Superior of the FSSP, in a letter I received from him last year enquiring why the FSSP is not active in my diocese or the Archdiocese, the FSSP has not been invited by either my Bishop or the Archbishop.

I realize that this is only a substitute for a live celebration. But I located this Mass in Latin online.
Hope it helps.

latinmass-ctm.org/mass/online.htm

 

[maurin]

I realize that this is only a substitute for a live celebration. But I located this Mass in Latin online.
Hope it helps.

latinmass-ctm.org/mass/online.htm

I don’t intend any malevolence here, 1way, please believe me. But how exactly does an online Mass posted on a CA thread satisfy one’s desire to be at the Holy Mass of the ages, when one’s bishop ignores the Pope’s request in his MP?

 

[1way]

I don’t intend any malevolence here, 1way, please believe me. But how exactly does an online Mass posted on a CA thread satisfy one’s desire to be at the Holy Mass of the ages, when one’s bishop ignores the Pope’s request in his MP?

Simply tried to give an alternative in a frustrating situation.
I honestly didnt think it would do you much good … but it was the only thing I could think of on short notice.

I pray that there is a quick and satisfactory solution to the dilemma.

Mea Culpa …

 

[1way]

Simply tried to give an alternative in a frustrating situation.
I honestly didnt think it would do you much good … but it was the only thing I could think of on short notice.

I pray that there is a quick and satisfactory solution to the dilemma.

Mea Culpa …

perhaps someone out there has a better suggestion.

 

[maurin]

Simply tried to give an alternative in a frustrating situation.
I honestly didnt think it would do you much good … but it was the only thing I could think of on short notice.

I pray that there is a quick and satisfactory solution to the dilemma.

Mea Culpa …

ahh. actually, that is kind of you, and the gesture, I’m sure, is appreciated. no ‘mea culpa’ necessary. pardon me, if I caused you to feel ‘put off.’

 

[maurin]

perhaps someone out there has a better suggestion.

this is wishful thinking, but if only the Bishops in Communion with the Holy Father would just take seriously the MP Summorum Pontificum.

We can only pray. And thank God for the SSPX, and other Societies who take up the Bishops’ slack.

 

[Cranch]

Really? Henry VIII, Luther, Calvin and that huge percentage of the Christians of their day who followed them into Protestantism, having each and every one been well-brought up Catholics, KNEW that it was a mortal sin to leave the Church, did they? Gimme a break.

I just wanted to say that, in England at least, the history can be seen more like an increasingly harder shoving into Protestantism with monasteries confiscated, churches defaced and the people coerced through injunctions and laws. This story is told in Eamon Duffy’s The Stripping of the Altars of which the London Review of Books wrote:

“Duffy wants to show the vitality and appeal of late medieval Catholicism and to prove that it exerted a diverse and vigorous hold over the imagination and loyalty of the people up to the very moment of Reformation. He succeeds triumphantly.”

 

[sparkielee]

That would be great for everyone with average and above average learning abilities, but what about those that are considered “mentally-challenged”, or “learning disabled”? They have a difficult enough time trying to learn their own spoken language, let alone a new one like Latin. Not everyone has the capacity to learn a new language and we should not exclude “the least of these”…

The “challenged” and whoever is trying to instruct them should just do their best; that’s all that can be asked. Learning disabled people may have a different way of learning and may need to be taught in a different way. Maybe the educable type of “mentally challenged” can be told that we’re there to pray and don’t need to speak Latin to attend the Mass. In fact the priest who says our Latin Mass told us that at the beginning of Mass. Maybe the individual may be taught a few words such as “Dominus vobiscum” and that the priest wishes us all that the Lord be with us.

I myself haven’t started talking until I was about 2 years old-so it took me a while just to learn English. I don’t know if I have any learning disabilities but I have been diagnosed with ADD (or attention deficit disorder) and have an above average IQ. I do have a little bit of trouble reading (in English)-I sometimes have to read the same paragraph over and over again until I understand what it says. But that didn’t keep me from getting good grades in Spanish and Latin (but I never became fluent in either one.)

As I said, with the learning “challenges” just do what you can. Even if the person just can’t learn a 2nd language, there’s no reason not to take him/her to the Latin Mass. You can always pray for that person and trust that the Lord knows what’s best. Some people’s disabilities may be severe enough that they don’t have the capacity to sin.

I had a brother who was like that. He was unable to talk and was limited mentally in other ways. He was baptised and didn’t seem to be any more capable of sinning than a toddler. He died when he was 13 years old and I believe he went straight to Heaven.

-sparkie:thumbsup:

 

[RobbyS]

I have never head anyone say they “can’t” learn Latin but most certainly did not even when the Mass was only in Latin.

In the end it probably comes down to time. People would rather pray, read the Bible, etc. etc. etc. than learn to read Latin when the benefits of doing so are rather limited for most people.

One problem is that by totally abandoning Latin, pastors at the same time, make it almost impossible to use the treasure of Latin hymns etc. at our disposal. Instead, we have
the pop-tune-ish music that few people sing anyway. Our choir directors don’t even use the great(Anglican) English hymns as much as they ought. Plus we have the problem of what language to use if the population of the congregation is ethnically mixed. Shall we use, English, or Spanish, or Vietnamese? Latin is, at least neutral.

 

[malachi3]

Again, that’s great! If they can read the English…

I agree.

A pink collar worker here: I have friends who have trouble with English and don’t read anything but the sports pages. They like the mass in English just fine. I love the Latin.