Why shouldn't praise and worship music be in the Mass?

[ReConverted]

Calling someone’s prayer garbage. sure…

you answer for that

I’m not judging their hearts.

I detest the music.

That’s a big difference.

 

[agapewolf]

YOU CALLED THEIR PRAYER GARBAGE!!! that IS judgemental

(by the way, I edited, you were too quick)

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I follow this debate with much interest. And how heated things have become!

Let’s all calm down for a minute and stop taking shots at each other.

I will have to agree that, regrettably, OCP has been putting music out, especially as of late, that does not seem to be of the greatest quality. In my own parish I scrutinize it quite well and use only selected pieces. As the director of music, it is my job, per church documents, to make these determinations - because the Church tells us that music for liturgy must be truly “beautiful”, with a high level of compositional integrity and sound text.

With that being said … We would all agree, as would the Church itself (and she has conceded this in documents) that the measure of what is “beautiful” and fits the defintions of these high standards can be highly subjective. Music composition, and publishing, therefore is not an exact science; it certainly is market driven as well.

So to the composers I say “Give it your best”. To the publishers, “Put out the best of the best”. I will then judge it to be worthy or unworthy of my parish - as will each person with this responsibility in each parish. And what’s not appropriate in one parish might be great for another as well, by the way …

It is one thing to say that a company has not put out the greatest of things lately. But lets make our judgements with charity; let’s make an effort to not be demeaning and offensive when doing so.

 

[ReConverted]

ever heard of a song called little drummer boy? The hearts of the writers IS an issue when you label it as garbage. but I’m sure you will criticize the musical quality of that song too.

Can you give any intellectual comments as to the musical quality itself and why it is garbage? I mean real,tactile conversation, not just “its garbage”

Cadence? chord structure? melodic lines? do you know what you are talking about besides your own tastes?

you called someone’s prayer garbage. that is wrong. no question.

I’m not talking about appropriateness for Mass…I’m talking about it objectively…its someone’s prayer.

Struck a nerve, did I?

By chance, are you a cradle Catholic who thinks the last 40 years have been hunky-dory?

Well, I converted to the Catholic faith in '94.

I’m a professional musician, I’m also involved in sales management, product development, and artist relations for several major companies. Mostly worked in the Bay Area and L.A.
Some of the products I’ve designed are quite well known.

I used to play drums at the Charismatic Mass in San Jose. (I was a new Catholic back then. Great people, but I’ll take the TLM or a reverent Novus Ordo these days, thanks much)

So, I know a thing or two about music.

OK, as a former evangelical, let me tell you, if you want to do MODERN music…they do it far better! Myself and lots of other converts can’t believe how bad the music is in many parishes. Sorry if you don’t like hearing that, but most of the stuff that passes for liturgical music these days is flat out lame. As Michael Davies put it “Music which purports to be a folk idiom of almost heroic banality”…that’s what is going on in many parishes.

And spare me the argument that I’m stereotyping.

We are forced to endure awful music. And they have the nerve to wonder why Catholics don’t sing…

*Cadence? *

WHAT cadence? Good Lord, Steve Martin’s character in “The Jerk” had better cadence!

*chord structure? *

Not exactly Stirring. When is the last time you heard people saying "Boy oh boy, “Gift of finest wheat”, what a classic! Right up there with “Ave Maria”. Suuuuuuuuuuuuure…
melodic lines?

do you know what you are talking about besides your own tastes?

Yes, I do.
The real issue is I struck a nerve. How about praying for me, OK?

 

[ReConverted]

I follow this debate with much interest. And how heated things have become!

Let’s all calm down for a minute and stop taking shots at each other.

I will have to agree that, regrettably, OCP has been putting music out, especially as of late, that does not seem to be of the greatest quality. In my own parish I scrutinize it quite well and use only selected pieces. As the director of music, it is my job, per church documents, to make these determinations - because the Church tells us that music for liturgy must be truly “beautiful”, with a high level of compositional integrity and sound text.

With that being said … We would all agree, as would the Church itself (and she has conceded this in documents) that the measure of what is “beautiful” and fits the defintions of these high standards can be highly subjective. Music composition, and publishing, therefore is not an exact science; it certainly is market driven as well.

So to the composers I say “Give it your best”. To the publishers, “Put out the best of the best”. I will then judge it to be worthy or unworthy of my parish - as will each person with this responsibility in each parish. And what’s not appropriate in one parish might be great for another as well, by the way …

It is one thing to say that a company has not put out the greatest of things lately. But lets make our judgements with charity; let’s make an effort to not be demeaning and offensive when doing so.

Good points. Thanks!

 

[agapewolf]

Your reference to cadence doesn’t make sense to me, but perhaps I don’t understand the analogy.

Cadence is the chord progression to finish a phrase.

No, I don’t think its been hunky dory. Perhaps you do not know the composers I am speaking about.

I’m talking about the composers…the NEWEST ones, that compose like the evangelical writers do. Praise and worship style.

Not the hippie stuff, I can’t stand it either.

Seems we may agree on this point actually.

This is what I’m talking about. Matt Maher’s music is praise and worship…its the most basic prayer with beautiful Catholic lyrics and singable, simple, and scriptural. Not hippie in the least.

You calling THAT garbage definately struck a nerve, but that itself is not the issue.

I am a music director at my parish and am very careful about what I pick…I pick some of this stuff you called garbage, and people DO sing. Louder than most places

You were wrong to call someone’s prayer garbage.

 

[ReConverted]

YOU CALLED THEIR PRAYER GARBAGE!!! that IS judgemental

(by the way, I edited, you were too quick)

We all have to make judgements.

Your use of the term “judgemental” in this instance is imprecise and quite typical of the mindset that defends a lot of nonsense and banality in the Church these days.

I wish you the best, and I will pray for God’s continued blessing on you.

With that, I’m done battling back and forth with you as I don’t think it will serve a Holy purpose to continue.

Dominus Vobiscum,

Johnny

 

[agapewolf]

Perhaps I used the word incorrectly, but don’t lump me in with such a group.

That itself is nonesense.

 

[ReConverted]

Your reference to cadence doesn’t make sense to me, but perhaps I don’t understand the analogy.

Cadence is the chord progression to finish a phrase.

No, I don’t think its been hunky dory. Perhaps you do not know the composers I am speaking about.

I’m talking about the composers…the NEWEST ones, that compose like the evangelical writers do. Praise and worship style.

Not the hippie stuff, I can’t stand it either.

Seems we may agree on this point actually.

This is what I’m talking about. Matt Maher’s music is praise and worship…its the most basic prayer with beautiful Catholic lyrics and singable, simple, and scriptural. Not hippie in the least.

You calling THAT garbage definately struck a nerve, but that itself is not the issue.

I am a music director at my parish and am very careful about what I pick…I pick some of this stuff you called garbage, and people DO sing. Louder than most places

You were wrong to call someone’s prayer garbage.

I was referring to “Cadence” in terms of rhythm. (I’m a percussionist and a guitarist.)

If some writers are getting closer to P&W stylings, then that’s a good thing, but in Mass…no thanks. I still prefer Chant to have primacy (as does the Church, and that’s been clarified by the Vatican lately) or failing that, something along the lines of JMT.

Thank you for your service to our Lord and his Church!

 

[ReConverted]

Perhaps I used the word incorrectly, but don’t lump me in with such a group.

That itself is nonesense.

That’s pretty much the stock retort when a comparison is made.

Again, God bless you, and if you want the last word it’s yours.

 

[agapewolf]

Except the fact that you are labeling what our “modern music” is is incorrect. Your actual grouping of people is incorrect.

That is from 70’s and 80s…unfortunately its still used.

I was talking about REAL modern music. Music written today. I write it myself. I played and sung with numerous different OCP composers, all of them not hippie, but more of the PW stuff.

You apparently like to play the backwards approach by fighting with the terms and words, rather than concepts and message.

Nothing can be discussed when basic vocabulary isn’t working anyway. (for both of us).

and when you start out with calling someone’s prayer garbage. I’m just trying to stick with the original point I was trying to make

 

[ReConverted]

Except the fact that you are labeling what our “modern music” is is incorrect. Your actual grouping of people is incorrect.

That is from 70’s and 80s…unfortunately its still used.

I was talking about REAL modern music. Music written today. I write it myself. I played and sung with numerous different OCP composers, all of them not hippie, but more of the PW stuff.

You apparently like to play the backwards approach by fighting with the terms and words, rather than concepts and message.

Nothing can be discussed when basic vocabulary isn’t working anyway. (for both of us).

and when you start out with calling someone’s prayer garbage. I’m just trying to stick with the original point I was trying to make

I could go on and on, but as I said, the last word is yours.

 

[proud2bcatholic]

Your reference to cadence doesn’t make sense to me, but perhaps I don’t understand the analogy.

Cadence is the chord progression to finish a phrase.

No, I don’t think its been hunky dory. Perhaps you do not know the composers I am speaking about.

I’m talking about the composers…the NEWEST ones, that compose like the evangelical writers do. Praise and worship style.

Not the hippie stuff, I can’t stand it either.

Seems we may agree on this point actually.

This is what I’m talking about. Matt Maher’s music is praise and worship…its the most basic prayer with beautiful Catholic lyrics and singable, simple, and scriptural. Not hippie in the least.

You calling THAT garbage definately struck a nerve, but that itself is not the issue.

I am a music director at my parish and am very careful about what I pick…I pick some of this stuff you called garbage, and people DO sing. Louder than most places

You were wrong to call someone’s prayer garbage.

I personally know Matt Maher, and to a lesser extent I know Tom Booth (I grew up at St. Timothy’s in Mesa, where they were both associate music minsters), I would agree that they are very talented musicians, and they don’t put out garbage, especially Matt Maher.

Having said that, the vast majority of their music is not appropriate for Mass.

A youth gathering, a praise and worship concert, heck yeah, totally appropriate (I must say that Matt Maher does put on some of the most prayerful and praiseful concerts), Mass, no way.

 

[proud2bcatholic]

I was referring to “Cadence” in terms of rhythm. (I’m a percussionist and a guitarist.)

If some writers are getting closer to P&W stylings, then that’s a good thing, but in Mass…no thanks. I still prefer Chant to have primacy (as does the Church, and that’s been clarified by the Vatican lately) or failing that, something along the lines of JMT.

Thank you for your service to our Lord and his Church!

I think you will find that there are a few excellent P&W Catholic musicians out there, especially Matt Maher’s stuff. So if you like to listen to P&W outside of Mass I would recommend his stuff. I personally like his two first albums better than the last one that came out (1st - The End and the Beginning, 2nd-Welcome to Life, 3rd - Overflow) mattmahermusic.com/

Having said that I agree with you on music for liturgy.

 

[VociMike]

BTW, now is as good a time as any to point out that by their very nature, “songs” (whether hymns or more modern pieces) are not as suitable in the Mass as are the actual parts of the Mass set to music. This is summed up by the phrase “We should not sing at Mass, we should sing the Mass”.

At the very least, we should sing all the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass before we sing any hymns/songs. It is indefensible, for example, to have an opening song and then recite (not sing) the Lord have Mercy or the Creed. And we should be singing the Introit, Gradual, Offertory and Communion Propers instead of hymns/songs, but even after 40 years there are still no official translations of them from the hierarchy so that lets out singing them in the vernacular (something I would support if they would give us the translations).

So entirely aside from the quality of the hymns/songs, there is the matter that in most churches they are having the people sing at Mass rather than having them sing the Mass. Just one more thing that needs to be fixed.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

VociMike

my post was incorrect, corrected is in bold letters.

The majority of the music in American Catholic Churches today, which the Bishops approve of, **none **is close to Gregorian Chant.

As I’ve said long ago, if not in this thread but one of the hundreds of other threads complaining about liturgical music, most of the criticism is subjective according to taste in music.

That being said, this subject is off to one of its own marathons, which I’m departing from.

Peace
Jim

 

[Michael_Welter]

At the very least, we should sing all the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass before we sing any hymns/songs. It is indefensible, for example, to have an opening song and then recite (not sing) the Lord have Mercy or the Creed. And we should be singing the Introit, Gradual, Offertory and Communion Propers instead of hymns/songs, but even after 40 years there are still no official translations of them from the hierarchy so that lets out singing them in the vernacular (something I would support if they would give us the translations).

This is absolutely correct (Imagine that, I’m agreeing with you ). I read this years ago in a book on liturgical music, and, as a musician, have lived by it. However, I can’t find the book anymore. Can you point me to a book, or document, that spells this out? I know some other musicians that should read this.

 

[JButky]

Can you point me to a book, or document, that spells this out? I know some other musicians that should read this.

It’s from the Musicam Sacram

1. The distinction between solemn, sung and read Mass, sanctioned by the Instruction of 1958 (n. 3), is retained, according to the traditional liturgical laws at present in force. However, for the sung Mass (Missa cantata), different degrees of participation are put forward here for reasons of pastoral usefulness, so that it may become easier to make the celebration of Mass more beautiful by singing, according to the capabilities of each congregation.

These degrees are so arranged that the first may be used even by itself, but the second and third, wholly or partially, may never be used without the first. In this way the faithful will be continually led toward an ever greater participation in the singing.

1. The following belong to the first degree:

(a) In the entrance rites: the greeting of the priest together with the reply of the people; the prayer.

(b) In the Liturgy of the Word: the acclamations at the Gospel.

(c) In the Eucharistic Liturgy: the prayer over the offerings; the preface with its dialogue and the Sanctus; the final doxology of the Canon, the Lord's Prayer with its introduction and embolism; the Pax Domini; the prayer after the Communion; the formulas of dismissal.

1. The following belong to the second degree:

(a) the Kyrie, Gloria and Agnus Dei;

(b) the Creed;

(c) the prayer of the faithful.

1. The following belong to the third degree:

(a) the songs at the Entrance and Communion processions;

(b) the songs after the Lesson or Epistle;

(c) the Alleluia before the Gospel;

(d) the song at the Offertory;

(e) the readings of Sacred Scripture, unless it seems more suitable to proclaim them without singing.

Joe B

 

[VociMike]

This is absolutely correct (Imagine that, I’m agreeing with you ).

Well I do try to be agreeable.

I read this years ago in a book on liturgical music, and, as a musician, have lived by it. However, I can’t find the book anymore. Can you point me to a book, or document, that spells this out? I know some other musicians that should read this.

Musicam Sacram (1967) states the order starting in section 28.

28…These degrees are so arranged that the first may be used even by itself, but the second and third, wholly or partially, may never be used without the first. In this way the faithful will be continually led toward an ever greater participation in the singing.

1. The following belong to the first degree:

(a) In the entrance rites: the greeting of the priest together with the reply of the people; the prayer.

(b) In the Liturgy of the Word: the acclamations at the Gospel.

(c) In the Eucharistic Liturgy: the prayer over the offerings; the preface with its dialogue and the Sanctus; the final doxology of the Canon, the Lord’s Prayer with its introduction and embolism; the Pax Domini; the prayer after the Communion; the formulas of dismissal.

1. The following belong to the second degree:

(a) the Kyrie, Gloria and Agnus Dei;

(b) the Creed;

(c) the prayer of the faithful.

1. The following belong to the third degree:

(a) the songs at the Entrance and Communion processions;

(b) the songs after the Lesson or Epistle;

(c) the Alleluia before the Gospel;

(d) the song at the Offertory;

(e) the readings of Sacred Scripture, unless it seems more suitable to proclaim them without singing.

 

[jc-servant]

To quote John Paul II:

With regard to compositions of liturgical music, I make my own the “general rule” that St Pius X formulated in these words: “The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple”. It is not, of course, a question of imitating Gregorian chant but rather of ensuring that new compositions are imbued with the same spirit that inspired and little by little came to shape it. Only an artist who is profoundly steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae can attempt to perceive and express in melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy.(edited to add) This is the Magisterium speaking. Taught by one pope, re-affirmed by another pope (and also by Pope Benedict XVI when he was Cardinal Ratzinger). We have no right to ignore or minimize this teaching.

This quote does not say that only Gregorian chant or other old Eurocentric music is the only appropriate liturgical music, but that appears to be the interpretation that you and some others have given it. It says the music should have the same “spirit” which leaves a range of interpretation. It is not dogma.

Since none of you speak with infallibility in your interpretations of the writings, I believe the rest of us who don’t agree can feel free to read and discern the meaning of writings for ourselves. I think there is an element of pride in thinking that we have the only correct reading of something.

I wonder if everyone arguing here even realizes how much some of these arguments about music that someone does not feel meets their interpretation of the rules can push away people who could be Catholic?

I cannot tell you how many times I have been questioned about my “white man’s” church pushing “white man’s” music and values. It is hard to evangelize and explain how we are a universal church while watching people try to pound down everyone until we only use the European music that they desire in the type of mass that they desire. The church did not begin in Europe and quite frankly the majority of us in it today are not of European roots. Jesus didn’t have Gregorian chant in His culture and I doubt He will keep us out of Heaven for singing something else in praise of Him. Music changed after Jesus went to Heaven and chant was one phase of that evolution which has continued for many more centuries.

I’m seriously glad that I didn’t stumble onto these forums until after I converted or I might have run the other way. At the very least I might have avoided the Latin rite of the church altogether in favor of another rite. I think we might all be surprised to find out just how many non-Catholics are lurking in these forums and forming their view of our church.