Why shouldn't praise and worship music be in the Mass?

[E.E.N.S]

Liturgiam Authenticam

“ON THE USE OF VERNACULAR LANGUAGES
IN THE PUBLICATION OF
THE BOOKS OF THE ROMAN LITURGY”

That alone is indisputable proof that “Roman Liturgy” refers to the vernacular as well as the Latin texts.

I’ll take a look, thanks. It may not be until next week that I can read it though as I’m leaving town this afternoon for the weekend and I’m fairly buried getting things ready at work before I go.

I assume you’re not implying that the title alone makes something clear, as the only thing I would read from the title is how vernacular was to be incorporated into a primarily Latin Mass, which was all that existed at that time, absent something in the document that states differently.

Though I amazed that you still have doubts regarding this issue, I am sure that once you read Liturgicam Authenticam all doubts will be cleared up.

(In fact, if you still have doubts after reading even the first few paragraphs I think you should pummel yourself with your keyboard until you start thinking straight again. Of course I mean this in jest. )

 

[VociMike]

Though I amazed that you still have doubts regarding this issue, I am sure that once you read Liturgicam Authenticam all doubts will be cleared up.

Yes, I’m a bit amazed myself. I would ask ncjohn, if the Novus Ordo Mass in the vernacular is not the Roman liturgy, what liturgy is it? The answer is, there is no other answer. Nowhere will he find reference to another liturgy in the Roman Rite. The Novus Ordo Mass in the vernacular is, quite simply, the Roman liturgy and nothing else.

 

[LumenGentium]

The Church says otherwise. She says that Gregorian Chant is the music proper for the Latin Rite (of which most of us are).

If music in the Liturgy was a matter of personal taste and preferences, then what’s to stop the people from using Megadeth - if that’s what the majority wants to hear?

if a guy doesn’t sound like bocelli i don’t want to hear gregorian chant. if he can’t sing, he won’t do the music justice. that is the real issue with music at mass. if it doesn’t sound good it shouldn’t be sung. or to be more specific that person should not be permitted to be a cantor.

guitar mass music is proper in my book. gregorian chant is B-O-R-I-N-G

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

yawnsville

seriously

also you are mistaken if you think the majority wants to attend latin mass or have megadeth tunes. the majority are turned off by latin mass. or to be more specific it is b-o-r-i-n-g. snoresville
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

gregorian chant music will just make latin mass that much more sleepy

 

[VociMike]

if a guy doesn’t sound like bocelli i don’t want to hear gregorian chant. if he can’t sing, he won’t do the music justice. that is the real issue with music at mass. if it doesn’t sound good it shouldn’t be sung. or to be more specific that person should not be permitted to be a cantor.

guitar mass music is proper in my book. gregorian chant is B-O-R-I-N-G

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

yawnsville

seriously

also you are mistaken if you think the majority wants to attend latin mass or have megadeth tunes. the majority are turned off by latin mass. or to be more specific it is b-o-r-i-n-g. snoresville
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

gregorian chant music will just make latin mass that much more sleepy

Is your ‘Z’ key stuck? I hope so.

Anyway, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. However…

The Church has made it clear that she holds Gregorian chant in much higher esteem than you do, and that it is the music proper to the Roman liturgy. Vatican II said so, and all the popes since Vatican II have said so. So faced with this unavoidable fact, what will you do? Will you re-examine your opinion in light of the expressly-stated mind of the Church? Or will you simply ignore the expressly-stated mind of the Church?

 

[LumenGentium]

The Church has made it clear that she holds Gregorian chant in much higher esteem than you do, and that it is the music proper to the Roman liturgy. Vatican II said so, and all the popes since Vatican II have said so. So faced with this unavoidable fact, what will you do? Will you re-examine your opinion in light of the expressly-stated mind of the Church? Or will you simply ignore the expressly-stated mind of the Church?

this matter is not a matter of faith

it is a matter of preferences.

the latin rite is NOT preferred by a majority of catholics. the novus ordo IS preferred by the majority of catholics…for obvious reasons.

this is a statement of fact. to say that the majority of catholics prefer latin is a bald-faced lie. the lie is a bigger whopper than a burger king whopper.

the gregorian chant is on the level of opera music. if the pope thinks its superior because it is considered classical, it does not mean it really IS superior. nor does the whole church nor even the majority of the catholic church agree that it is superior. only certain people who like classical music consider it superior. that does not mean it IS superior. it is a musical preference. most people do not get excited about going to hear opera music nor does it sell off the shelves as pop music does. so like i said, it is a matter of taste and preferences. this is not a matter of faith and morals. it is a matter of preference and it is also a matter of skill and ability. which a majority do not have.

i can assure you that those who do consider it superior will not think so if it is poorly executed.

i do not regard gregorian chant in high regard and it is not binding that i should. nor is it binding on the various cultures in the world.

 

[E.E.N.S]

this matter is not a matter of faith

it is a matter of preferences.

the latin rite is NOT preferred by a majority of catholics. the novus ordo IS preferred by the majority of catholics…for obvious reasons.

this is a statement of fact. to say that the majority of catholics prefer latin is a bald-faced lie. the lie is a bigger whopper than a burger king whopper.

the gregorian chant is on the level of opera music. if the pope thinks its superior because it is considered classical, it does not mean it really IS superior. nor does the whole church nor even the majority of the catholic church agree that it is superior. only certain people who like classical music consider it superior. that does not mean it IS superior. it is a musical preference. most people do not get excited about going to hear opera music nor does it sell off the shelves as pop music does. so like i said, it is a matter of taste and preferences. this is not a matter of faith and morals. it is a matter of preference and it is also a matter of skill and ability. which a majority do not have.

i can assure you that those who do consider it superior will not think so if it is poorly executed.

i do not regard gregorian chant in high regard and it is not binding that i should. nor is it binding on the various cultures in the world.

Please show me in any document of the Church where she says that Liturgical music is purely personal taste? You won’t be able to because the Church says otherwise. Remember this isn’t about getting excited to go see an opera, this isn’t about entertainment in the least, and if you think it is you are sorely mistaken.

But seriously, please read all the documents that the Church has issued on this topic and let me know when you find what you believe to be true.

 

[LumenGentium]

Please show me in any document of the Church where she says that Liturgical music is purely personal taste? You won’t be able to because the Church says otherwise. Remember this isn’t about getting excited to go see an opera, this isn’t about entertainment in the least, and if you think it is you are sorely mistaken.

But seriously, please read all the documents that the Church has issued on this topic and let me know when you find what you believe to be true.

your preference for gregorian chant shows that you see this as entertainment…
the documents do not require gregorian chant. it is a preference. a prideful preference.

furthermore, it is a big fat lie to state that ‘a majority of catholics prefer latin mass.’

 

[VociMike]

this matter is not a matter of faith

it is a matter of preferences.

the latin rite is NOT preferred by a majority of catholics. the novus ordo IS preferred by the majority of catholics…for obvious reasons.

this is a statement of fact. to say that the majority of catholics prefer latin is a bald-faced lie. the lie is a bigger whopper than a burger king whopper.

the gregorian chant is on the level of opera music. if the pope thinks its superior because it is considered classical, it does not mean it really IS superior. nor does the whole church nor even the majority of the catholic church agree that it is superior. only certain people who like classical music consider it superior. that does not mean it IS superior. it is a musical preference. most people do not get excited about going to hear opera music nor does it sell off the shelves as pop music does. so like i said, it is a matter of taste and preferences. this is not a matter of faith and morals. it is a matter of preference and it is also a matter of skill and ability. which a majority do not have.

i can assure you that those who do consider it superior will not think so if it is poorly executed.

i do not regard gregorian chant in high regard and it is not binding that i should. nor is it binding on the various cultures in the world.

So you reject Vatican II and subsequent popes on this matter in preference to your own opinion.

 

[LumenGentium]

So you reject Vatican II and subsequent popes on this matter in preference to your own opinion.

i reject your misinterpretation of vatican 2.

ps: if you really want to split hairs, jesus is jewish, not latin

 

[VociMike]

i reject your misinterpretation of vatican 2.

What misinterpretation would that be?

 

[LumenGentium]

What misinterpretation would that be?

you have made the false claim that mass must be latin and it must use gregorian chant in order to be a valid mass.

 

[VociMike]

you have made the false claim that mass must be latin and it must use gregorian chant in order to be a valid mass.

Excuse me? I have most certainly never made such a claim, either on this forum or anywhere else. And furthermore, I would reject such a claim as utterly false.

Good grief!

 

[Sarabande]

I wouldn’t want to hear Bocelli or a Dramatic soprano sing chant. They wouldn’t be the right voices to do it and would just sound horrible. Also, although opera isn’t as popular as pop music, it certainly hasn’t lost listeners or new singers. It’s extremely more competitive today than it was 50 years ago and there are tons of opera companies in this country today, whereas 25 years ago, a young American singer would have to go to Germany in order to get his/her performing experience. Today they can stay in the states and still be able to have a career because of all the companies and Young Artists Programs offered to them.

Anyway, comparing opera and sacred music, especially chant and early music, isn’t the best comparison. Although they both fall under the classical genre, they are of a different style of singing. Opera is for entertainment purposes and because it is an art form can and does bring a certain level of spiritual joy, but not in the same way as music composed specifically for the sacred. Also, opera is sometimes looked at in the “classical” world as the meat and potatoes area of classical music. It’s drama overload, very earthy and much of it, especially during the Bel Canto era was composed for the masses - meaning the average Giuseppie, Joseph or Joe because Rossini, Verdi, Puccini and the like were the favored composers of the day for everyone. So, you really can’t liken chant to opera. They wrote those works to entertain not to bring spiritual ecstasy. Whereas the sacred works of other composers who also wrote operas are performed differently than if they were singing an opera. In those days as well, the common man enjoyed both, plus even their versions of popular/folk music. Opera is definitely not on the same level as chant or polyphony.

I’m not putting down opera because I am actually a young, opera singer and will be performing Mozart’s “Die Zauberflote” literally in four hours (BTW - a singspiel that was also composed poking fun at everyone and everything for the common man - it wasn’t first performed at the emperor’s theater but for the average man’s theater). I also used to sing chant and early music - and believe me - It is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT way of singing and a different outlook on the music in general especially when you learn the history behind it and how western music developed due in part to the use of chant and then later on to polyphony, etc. Since I am a musician I do receive spiritual fulfillment whenever I sing or hear someone perform whether sacred or secular, but still in opera I’m there to entertain. For sacred music that’s not the case. Perhaps there to inspire, but not to entertain.

I’m not saying that every mass should have an overdose of only gregorian chant, especially since throughout the centuries there have been further developments in music to create even more spiritual inspiring and beautiful music. And yes, chant can be boring is not done correctly or if I’m not in the right state of spiritual mind. When my mind is quiet that’s when I get the most out of it.

I also believe that the pope is a little more intelligent than to just believe that chant is “superior” because it’s considered “classical”. In some way, chant really isn’t in the classical genre either - it’s in a realm of it’s own - even different from polyphony. Quite honestly, I never actually placed chant in the classical realm. The Pope is a trained musician and knows his music/church history and theory to have a deeper reason than to think it’s good because it’s classical. That outlook is for those who don’t know much about any genre of music in general.

At the Cathedral where I work at as a musician, we do two Latin NO masses a month there where chant, polyphony and motets from various centuries in Latin is employed. The majority of people who attend the Cathedral are visitors from around the country and the world. Although most do not have music programs like ours, many times do they approach the music director, priest or musician thanking them for the music and how spiritual and uplifting it was. Granted, perhaps they wouldn’t want that at every mass they attend, but it’s not like they were “bored” by it or totally turned off. If the musicianship is good and there is sincerity in the prayer of performing, it will inspire people.

 

[E.E.N.S]

your preference for gregorian chant shows that you see this as entertainment…
the documents do not require gregorian chant. it is a preference. a prideful preference.

furthermore, it is a big fat lie to state that ‘a majority of catholics prefer latin mass.’

you have made the false claim that mass must be latin and it must use gregorian chant in order to be a valid mass.

You are creating quite the strawman, LG, and I think it’s about time you stop. Neither of us, nor the Church, is saying what you are saying we are saying.

When did we say that our preference was Gregorian Chant? (or anythig for that matter?)

When did we say that the documents require Gregorian Chant?

When did we say that the majority of Catholics prefer the Latin Mass?

When did we say that the Mass be in Latin and use Gregorian Chant to be valid?

When did we say Jesus was Latin?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Here are a few documents on this topic that many will find helpful.

Sacrosanctum Concilium
Musicae Sacrae
Liturgiam Authenticam
Sacramentum Caritatis

There are more, but these should be good enough for this particular thread.

If anyone can find in any of these documents put forth by the Church herself that states that all music is equally qualified for use within her Liturgy and that it is just a matter of preference I will eat my keyboard.

Okay, now start reading! If someone is able to do what I stated above, I will post a video of me eating my keyboard.

 

[po18guy]

The Mass is a sacrifice. It makes present the timeless and eternal sacrifice of the Son. Christ’s body on the cross. I think reverence is warranted here. Praise could be used for the recessional, as the Mass is concluded at that time.

 

[LumenGentium]

You are creating quite the strawman, LG, and I think it’s about time you stop. Neither of us, nor the Church, is saying what you are saying we are saying.

When did we say that our preference was Gregorian Chant? (or anythig for that matter?)

When did we say that the documents require Gregorian Chant?

When did we say that the majority of Catholics prefer the Latin Mass?

When did we say that the Mass be in Latin and use Gregorian Chant to be valid?

When did we say Jesus was Latin?

yes you did. all of your denials are false.

by eens:

She {meaning mother church} says that Gregorian Chant is the music proper for the Latin Rite (of which most of us are).

If music in the Liturgy was a matter of personal taste and preferences, then what’s to stop the people from using Megadeth - if that’s what the majority wants to hear?

1. when you said that most catholics are latin rite catholics, you lied. most catholics hear mass in the vernacular.
2. when you quoted a text that said gregorian chant is supposed to be sung at mass on sunday you quoted it because that is your preference, but it is not a requirement. you are implying that since some document says gregorian chant is to be given pride of place that it means it is a requirement. and furthermore, according to you, most catholics are latin rite and therefore they are RIGHT. hence, another misrepresentation, misinterpretation and false teaching on your part.
3. you are intimidating posters into agreeing with you by insisting that your chosen quoted texts are absolute law, when they are in fact, not binding.
4. your arguments have developed to the point that you are saying if the mass is not in latin and is not gregorian chant then it is not valid…it is pretty evident on this thread that you are trying to make people believe that your way is the right way and everyone else is wrong… when, in fact, you are wrong and putting forth false teaching.
5. you are trying to legislate people’s musical preference to be solely gregorian chant within the confines of the latin mass by arguing with people who do not agree with your false interpretations, which are not binding, but you are making it sound like it is binding. you are trying to make them believe it is binding so that you can have your way, which is that, all masses must absolutely be celebrated in latin and use gregorian chant to be considered valid.
6. latin absolutism is a false theology.
   7, jesus is jewish. not latin.

 

[StephenB]

I admit, I haven’t read all 260+ posts on the subject, but what exactly are we defining as Praise and Worship? “Look Beyond” perhaps, or “Ashes” or perhaps “Gifts of Finest Wheat.” Maybe the tune popularly known as “Morning Has Broken” (incidentally sung by my public high school choir EVERY Spring concert) is off linits, too…

Where do we draw the line on what is suitable and what isn’t? And who on this forum is going to draw that line?

Don’t want an argument, but couldn’t you classify all the music (like gregorian chants) as praise and worship? Is there a specific form of music we want to get away from? Or perhaps it is a specific set of writers associated with a specific publishing company in a specifc area of the NW USA…

What about the stuff I hear on the local Christian Radio station - would it ever be appropriate? (I’ve not been listening long, but haven’t heard anything in latin or vaguely resembling a gregorian chant.) I have heard some BEAUTIFUL music pointing to our complete dependence on God, or taking Psalm 91 and putting to a wonderful melody…?

Where do we draw the line on appropriate or inappropriate music to praise God, the author of all the talents being poured forth in an effort to praise him?

I’ll admit, I am not nearly as orthodox as I used to think I was (after visiting CAF) and yet I embrace our faith as deeply as I know how and seek to learn even more. But a voice lifted in praise of God’s presence and work in our life hardly ever seems inappropriate.

 

[StephenB]

yes you did. all of your denials are false.

by eens:

1. when you said that most catholics are latin rite catholics, you lied. most catholics hear mass in the vernacular.

Um…I don’t think being Latin rite and hearing mass in the vernacular are opposing viewpoints. And I think the majority of Catholics, as pointed out on the Q&A are Latin Rite hearing the mass in their native tongue.

 

[Hegesippus]

There is no venecular rite within the Church, depsite your preference for the venecular you are still in the Latin rite.