Why so much fear about Christianity?

[SteveVH]

And why do you think this is possible?

Because you believe that…[the truth /is/ written on every man and woman’s heart].

?

Yep. And denying it is much easier than practicing it.

 

[Mystophilus]

I’d suggest that what many people may fear is the idea of returning to Christianity being entrenched in political power.

A fear shared by many Christians.

 

[SteveVH]

It’s not clear how Christians can be so conveniently separated from Christianity as you suggest.

In fact, some non-Christians believe that Christians are Christianity; or that Christians are the ones who create Christianity; that there is no Christianity without Christians.

Your objection holds only if we take for granted that Christianity somehow exists apart from Christians.

Well, the truth that exists within Christianity is always true whether or not anyone is practicing it. No religion or philosophy should be judged by those who fail to live what it teaches.

On the other hand, you make an important point. St. Pope John Paul, II said that the greatest threat to Christianity is Christians. Through poor examples we, as Christians, can stop many people from even desiring to explore it in the first place.

 

[Mystophilus]

I think it is quite possible that those who do not accept Christianity nevertheless know within themselves that what it espouses is, in fact, relevant. Knowing this, it is also possible to still reject it, which entails rejecting the truth written on every man and woman’s heart as well.

It also rather begs the question as to whether they are rejecting Christianity alone, or also rejecting every other belief system which promotes similar ideas.

It’s much easier to justify the claim “A desire for justice and compassion is written on everyone’s heart” than it is to justify the claim “A desire for there to be one God who incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth is written on everyone’s heart”.

 

[Sarcelle]

It’s not clear how Christians can be so conveniently separated from Christianity as you suggest.

In fact, some non-Christians believe that Christians are Christianity; or that Christians are the ones who create Christianity; that there is no Christianity without Christians.

Your objection holds only if we take for granted that Christianity somehow exists apart from Christians.

The idea of monogamy will always be there regardless of how many people subscribe to the idea. The idea of justice, honesty, and others will still be there no matter how many people believe in it. There is such a thing as objective reality.

 

[MaryT777]

The duplicity of so many Christians - they say one thing, and do the opposite.
Such duplicity does not inspire trust for Christianity in non-Christians.

A good read is Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis. He writes that it’s a trick of the devil to say Christians don’t behave any better

We are sinners in need of a savior. That is the crux of the matter. Hopefully that leads to better behavior but no one knows the heart and mind of another and what sins they struggle with.

Also no one knows that one does when no person is “there” so to speak so it’s hard to judge behavior. Plus what do you judge when judging behavior? There are so many aspects of it?

Mary.

 

[Lucy107]

Yep. And denying it is much easier than practicing it.

Then you’ve proven my point then, and you are an example of someone who believes that everyone believes that Christianity is right, but that some merely pretend not to believe it.

Well, the truth that exists within Christianity is always true whether or not anyone is practicing it. No religion or philosophy should be judged by those who fail to live what it teaches.

By what should a religion or philosophy be judged, if not by the behavior of those who claim to be its proponents?

 

[Lucy107]

The idea of monogamy will always be there regardless of how many people subscribe to the idea. The idea of justice, honesty, and others will still be there no matter how many people believe in it. There is such a thing as objective reality.

A good read is Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis. He writes that it’s a trick of the devil to say Christians don’t behave any better

We are sinners in need of a savior. That is the crux of the matter. Hopefully that leads to better behavior but no one knows the heart and mind of another and what sins they struggle with.

Also no one knows that one does when no person is “there” so to speak so it’s hard to judge behavior. Plus what do you judge when judging behavior? There are so many aspects of it?

I think you are just trying to downplay the responsibility of a theist.

As if someone could claim to know the truth about God, and then freely behave “like everyone else.”

Theists are not ordinary people anymore.

It is justified to hold theists to the highest possible standard. Because they themselves are the ones claiming to know what that highest possible standard is.

 

[MaryT777]

I think you are just trying to downplay the responsibility of a theist.

As if someone could claim to know the truth about God, and then freely behave “like everyone else.”

Theists are not ordinary people anymore.

It is justified to hold theists to the highest possible standard. Because they themselves are the ones claiming to know what that highest possible standard is.

So non theists have no standards? If they do what are they based upon?
Are you stating non theists hold themselves to a lower standard of behavior because they are not theists?

Mary.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

By what should a religion or philosophy be judged, if not by the behavior of those who claim to be its proponents?

I agree. If you don’t live it, you don’t believe it.

 

[meltzerboy]

Christianity also calls people to live according to certain moral guidelines that - in the view of some - limit personal freedom.

As sinners, we want to do what we want to do when we want to do it, and we take issue with anyone who stands in our way of getting what we want.

Putting a different spin on this, some people see Christianity as too “nosy” a religion (that is, nosy, though not necessarily noisy); in other words, too concerned with others’ welfare, particularly their spiritual welfare in the afterlife, with too much of a busybody attitude, overly zealous, self-righteous and arrogant in wishing to persuade, sometimes not so nicely, others to believe exactly what Christians believe, as though other people and cultures don’t have their own reason, intellect, or faith.

 

[rinnie]

Except that whatever one has ever heard on the topic of “God”, one has heard from people, not from God himself.

So even as one thinks one is trusting God, one is actually still trusting people.

So So wrong. Jesus left us the Church and send the Advocate the Holy Spirit to bring us to the truth.

The Holy Spirit is not people, the Holy Spirit is God who speaks through his Priests in the RCC.

And the Apostles got it straight from the mouth of God. It is what he told them that they teach us. We don’t trust people, we trust God and his word in sending the Holy Spirit to protect his Church.

 

[Mystophilus]

So So wrong. Jesus left us the Church and send the Advocate the Holy Spirit to bring us to the truth.

And so do we hear this truth *directly *from the Holy Spirit, without *any *human medium, or do we, as Lucy107 said, hear it via people?

Unfortunately, the Church has included many different voices pretty much since its inception, and we are thus obliged to decide which of those voices we consider to be the ones speaking God’s truth, i.e., we have to decide which people to trust.

 

[SteveVH]

It also rather begs the question as to whether they are rejecting Christianity alone, or also rejecting every other belief system which promotes similar ideas.

I would not say Christianity alone by any means.

It’s much easier to justify the claim “A desire for justice and compassion is written on everyone’s heart” than it is to justify the claim “A desire for there to be one God who incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth is written on everyone’s heart”.

I am not making the claim that there is “A desire for there to be one God who incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth [which] is written on everyone’s heart”. I think there is an interior desire to know the One who made us, even by those who deny His existence. There is a desire to understand the meaning of our own existence.

Christianity did not grow out of any human desire. It was revealed to us. While it answers the questions of our origin, the meaning of our existence and our ultimate destiny, it also requires self denial and submission. That is a difficult demand and goes against our fallen human nature.

 

[SteveVH]

By what should a religion or philosophy be judged, if not by the behavior of those who claim to be its proponents?

My point is that it cannot be judged solely by those who violate the very principles it espouses. There are hypocrites in every walk of life.

If you want to judge Christianity by the behavior of those who claim to be its proponents then look also to those who do live according to its teachings. Look at the many incredible martyrs and saints throughout Christianity. Look at what Christianity has brought to the world in terms of charity, health care, education, art, music, law, science… It has changed the world forever. At least look at these things along with those who fail miserably in living it out.

 

[Mystophilus]

I think there is an interior desire to know the One who made us, even by those who deny His existence. There is a desire to understand the meaning of our own existence.

There is some good research to back you up on that one, although the cause of such desire is still under fierce debate.

it also requires self denial and submission. That is a difficult demand

Well, for me, certainly, but not for everyone. For certain personality types, self-denial and submission is easier than autonomy.

 

[spedteacherita]

And so do we hear this truth *directly *from the Holy Spirit, without *any *human medium, or do we, as Lucy107 said, hear it via people?

Unfortunately, the Church has included many different voices pretty much since its inception, and we are thus obliged to decide which of those voices we consider to be the ones speaking God’s truth, i.e., we have to decide which people to trust.

Remember that Jesus is the Word of God and therefore it’s the Word of God that the Holy Spirit is sent to help us. God will use both to bring people to salvation. His people then should stay in the Word through Bible Study and the Sacraments. We who know the Good News should be the ones sharing the Word.

If we are in the Word as well as availing ourselves of the sacraments we will produce naturally the fruits of the Spirit.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.…

John 14:15-17
15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.…

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

We have to realize as well that all who live on this Earth are sinful - it is inevitable that we will sin - our Perfection will not be until we are taken with Jesus into heaven when He returns. As others have said in this thread, we don’t know what issues others are dealing with and what we see may not always be what you think it is.

When I was in college I became a member of a singing group that traveled around sharing God thru song and skits. There was another young woman on the team with me that I had always thought she didn’t like me…when we talked she said the same thing about me. It wasn’t that we didn’t like each other - we were just shy and uncertain in each other’s presence. We became the best of friends after that…

 

[Reuben_J]

So what are the reasons you hear that people have a negative view of the faith?

The behavior of Christians. A Christian can hurt as much as non-Christians. We see that in our parish.

As far as your neighbor or a colleague is concerned, you are Christianity! Have you been different from any other people? Have you commanded respect from them? How attractive is your life and behavior compared to a non-Christian?

If they feel and see that there are good Christians and bad Christians, what difference is that to non-Christians (who perhaps do not make it a point to be good)? Then they will see what a nuisance Christians can be especially when they try to evangelize. That to a non-Christian is crossing his boundary.

Remember, we not talking about non-Christians who can rationalize that Christianity may not be necessarily being represented by its adherents. These people do not fear Christianity except perhaps when the religion is being used as a political platform.

 

[Reuben_J]

Mystophilus:

Agreed, especially when the hypocrites are media figures.

Since the church sets out to make people better, it has to face the fact that people can reasonably expect it to be better and can object when it fails to be so. One of the interesting figures which came out during the Catholic priests’ sex abuse scandal (and please don’t anyone derail this discussion into claims about how many things others did wrong, too) was that the rate of sexual abuse was higher in US high schools than in US Catholic churches. People were still more upset with the priests because they had expected more from them, and were thus more disappointed.

I concur. It may be unfair but the bad that a Christian figure does will be amplified more. It is a matter of perception.

Again, if there are bad Christians as well as good Christians, what difference is that to those within non-Christianity? The only difference perhaps is that non-Christians do not make a pretense of it and do not preach to you.

 

[Lucy107]

So So wrong. Jesus left us the Church and send the Advocate the Holy Spirit to bring us to the truth.

The Holy Spirit is not people, the Holy Spirit is God who speaks through his Priests in the RCC.

And the Apostles got it straight from the mouth of God. It is what he told them that they teach us. We don’t trust people, we trust God and his word in sending the Holy Spirit to protect his Church.

And you have heard about this from whom?

So non theists have no standards? If they do what are they based upon?
Are you stating non theists hold themselves to a lower standard of behavior because they are not theists?

Awww. Don’t try to twist this.

If you want to claim that you are a representative of God – fine. But don’t think that you can get away with it. Those pesky non-theists will remind you!

It appears God has some say in who gets to call themselves His representative.