why st peter ?

[ahimsaman72]

vern humphrey:

But when Protestants broke away from that unified command, they managed to create some 33,000 competing and quarreling churches in just the US.

For the record, please cite your source for your 33,000 competing and quarreling churches (in just the U.S.). This has been rolled around this forum numerous times and gets sillier by the post.
Thanks.

Peace…

 

[vern_humphrey]

ahimsaman72:

For the record, please cite your source for your 33,000 competing and quarreling churches (in just the U.S.). This has been rolled around this forum numerous times and gets sillier by the post.
Thanks.

Peace…

The source is the United States Internal Revenue Service. That’s the number of independent entities which have filed for tax-exempt status as churches.

Now, before quibbling, can we agree that truth is unity? That there is one and only one truth?

So regardless if there are 33,000, 30,000, 3,000 or 300 separate churches all proclaiming the “truth” the principle holds – all oc them cannot be teaching the truth. Without a single authoritative head, Protestantism is hopelessly fragmented.

 

[ahimsaman72]

vern humphrey:

The source is the United States Internal Revenue Service. That’s the number of independent entities which have filed for tax-exempt status as churches.

vern humphrey quote:
“But when Protestants broke away from that unified command, they managed to create some 33,000 competing and quarreling churches in just the US.”

First, you say “churches”, now you are saying “independent entities”. If you would use the same designation throughout, then there would be less confusion on the part of the readers.

So, when you quote this number and label them as “churches”, are you talking about denominations or individual churches with their own independent charters of government?

Because the sense I get when I see this ridiculous number thrown around the forum is that it is supposedly proof-positive of warring factions of protestantism that can’t agree on one iota of doctrine, which is simply not true and deceptive.

If you are referring to individual churches then I agree with the number. If you are referring to denominations, then you are misleading people.

Now, before quibbling, can we agree that truth is unity? That there is one and only one truth?

No, you are switching the subject to make up for your slanderous errors.

So regardless if there are 33,000, 30,000, 3,000 or 300 separate churches all proclaiming the “truth” the principle holds – all oc them cannot be teaching the truth. Without a single authoritative head, Protestantism is hopelessly fragmented.

There is a huge difference between 33,000 and 300. Not all “proclaim” they hold the only source of truth, which is another deceptive philosophy used by people such as yourself based on degenerating your brothers and sisters in Christ.

Most hold the Scripture as their sole source of doctrine. While they may differ about interpretation (as early church fathers also did), they still hold the same certain standard of doctrine. Your truth is narrow as defined by your denomination.

And, by the way, since when did the IRS become an authoritative and valid source of religious entities and discerner of truth?

Peace…

 

[adnauseum]

We see in John 20 that Peter and the other apostle ran toward the empty tomb, but Peter lagged behind.

When they got to the tomb, the other apostle deferred to Peter’s status and allowed him to enter the tomb first.

Peter was given the keys.

Nolite timere!

 

[michael777]

MariaG:

Hi Michael,

Not that I truly think you will read it, but for those who may read this and not ask, here are some Christians of the Early Church whom the Holy Spirit revealed to them the truth of Peter. You can find it here.

catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp

You assume that Catholics here do not have a personal relationship with Christ and have no idea what it means to be led by the Holy Spirit. You are quite simply wrong. If you ever choose to actually look into not only Scripture, but how the early church interpreted it, you will see that the heretics are not Catholics.

Scripture tells us to be careful of those who will come along and preach false doctrines. Catholic Christians have been here since the beginning. Protestants came along after. So who is teaching the false doctrine? What did the Bible warn us about? Those who come along. Those who have come along are certainly not Catholic but all Protestant denominations. Try studying history along with Scripture and ask the Holy Spirit to lead you to all truth no matter where that will be. By the way, by history of the Church, I mean 100, 200, 300ad. Here is a good place to start: catholic.com/library.asp

or here newadvent.org/

or even here star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/overview.html

or here ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM
God Bless,
Maria

Hi Maria,

Seeing your the only person who takes time to correspond with any glint of earnest defence rather than sheer hostilty, i am replying to your post.
However i have to make it clear, i am only looking at what Jesus himself said and what the early church wrote in the new testament about this subject ( including st peter himself.)
As to my charge of “heretic” . it was directly aimed at the present popes declaration of muslims and christians worshipping the same God.
As i know even allah disagrees on this, that is allah specifically says in the koran "FAR be it for him to have A Son "and allah (moon god- pagan) also clearly and directly states that Jesus the son of mary is not the christ. Also he and his followers mock the death of christ by claiming Christ Jesus did not die on the Cross.

So my heart is for the truth on this matter and my intention on the subject is only for the truth and is Good.
As to the subject of leadership in the church and just what jesus was saying to Peter , i believe the case i put forward speaks for itself in light of ALL scripture.
This is how you understand scripture and dont take things out of context.

I conclude that when the pope states that christians and muslims adore and worship the same God, HE IS MOST DEFINITLY WRONG AND SINCE HE IS MEANT TO BE INSPIRED, HE MOST DEFINITLY IS NOT INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THEREFORE IS A FALSE TEACHER. OR HERETIC WHICH IS THE SAME THING.
So i do not trust his interpretation on any spiritual matter, and quite easily see the decptive nature of most of his relgious teachings on various aspects of Christian truth.

As to me being able to judge anyone. That is not possible but im not judging anyone, i m just judging the facts.

Jesus himself said stop judging by apearances and make a right judgement.

i believe im am doing so and am not impressed by either tradition or religious history or flowing robes and high titles.
im making a correct judgement based upon the truth that is in Christ Jesus thorugh his Spirit of Truth and his Word!.

Yours in Christ
Michael

 

[MariaG]

Michael,

I certainly understand not wishing to study anything but God’s inspired word. In fact, I came to the Catholic church from a Bible alone Church. It was through the leading of the Holy Spirit and His Sacred Scripture that I was shown the truth. **I did not study anything else but Scripture. **

I pointed it out to you because once I was shown the truth, I could then look at what the early church taught. It is consistent with the teaching of the Catholic Church.

But okay, for you, let’s stick with just Scripture since we both know it is God’s inspired word.

First off, you are confusing two different issues, the infallibility of the pope and the primacy of the Pope. As this thread is dealing with the primacy, I would encourage you to start a new thread dealing with infallibility. Bring up your statement just as you already posted, it would be a great discussion starter.

As for taking things in context, I 100% agree. So lets take Matthew 16:13-19 in context of the Bible. What in the Bible does it say about keys? In the OT (I’ll find it if you wish, or I know others know the exact spot, sorry) it does speak of keys. Keys in the Bible are always given to the one in authority over all others. In history this is also reflected, but since we need to stick to the Bible, we can say that the understanding of keys and the authority they imparted was well understood by the apostles from the OT. So in context, they all understood what Jesus was doing and saying.

How do you reconcile the meaning of keys and authority and the words of Jesus directly to Peter? Explain your interpretation and context of the keys and how that did not mean Peter would be in charge.

God Bless,

Maria

 

[vern_humphrey]

michael777:

As to my charge of “heretic” . it was directly aimed at the present popes declaration of muslims and christians worshipping the same God.
As i know even allah disagrees on this, that is allah specifically says in the koran "FAR be it for him to have A Son "and allah (moon god- pagan) also clearly and directly states that Jesus the son of mary is not the christ. Also he and his followers mock the death of christ by claiming Christ Jesus did not die on the Cross.

Okaaay, Michael, answer us this:

Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Son of God, and they claim while He died on the cross, He did not rise. Do JEWS worship the same God we Christians worship?

 

[Ignatius]

michael777:

hi, im new here this is my first question too.

first
why was st peter chosen and given more than others?
and is the pope related to st peter ?

before you answer me i know that popes get st peters position but did st peter get more power than other believers and if he did why do think he did and what does the popes think it was because of ,i mean what officialy is the answer?

thanks

from michael

I thank the Holy Spirit for guiding you here and ask Him to open your heart and eyes that you may know the Fullness of Truth.
Ephphatha!

In answere to your question, it comes from the Bible in Matthew 16 when Jesus said to Peter: “And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall have been bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall have been loosed in heaven.”

In ancient times the “Keys to the Kingdom” was an expression granting full governing authority to the person given it. The Hebrews of the time (which all of the Apostles were) would have understood this perfectly.

May the love of God the Father, the peace of His Son Our Lord Jesus Christ, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m still waiting for him to answer my question. If the Pope is a “heretic” and a “false teacher” for saying the Muslims worship the same God as we do, do the Jews worship the same God we worship?

After all, the Jews don’t accept Jesus as the Messiah, nor do they believe he rose from the dead.

So answer up, Michael – do the Jews worship the same God we worship?

 

[ahimsaman72]

No anwer yet from vern - I’m still waiting.

 

[BOBKAT]

Steve Andersen:

St Peter was always one of my favorites

The prototypical everyman

Capable of great insight and great failings

Was told he was the Rock and then called Satan
Promised to stand and defend but denied 3 times

It seems appropriate that Jesus, being sent here to save all men, would choose someone who, on the surface at least, was an average Joe

After watching a show on him the other day I would say he has become one of my favorites. It seems Jesus saw humainty through Peter and that is why he was chosen to be the leader. It is said that Peter made many promises to Jesus that he didn’t keep yet Jesus never gave up on him. How many promises have we made and kept? I know I made a few or more. I think by selecting Peter our Lord was giving us hope and showing us mercy.

God Bless
Kathleen

 

[jimmy]

michael777:

hi, im new here this is my first question too.

first
why was st peter chosen and given more than others?
and is the pope related to st peter ?

before you answer me i know that popes get st peters position but did st peter get more power than other believers and if he did why do think he did and what does the popes think it was because of ,i mean what officialy is the answer?

thanks

from michael

He got authority because he was the natural leader among the apostles. He was always the one to speak up, like in Matt. 16 where he is the one to come forward and to confess the faith. The early Church looked at him as the leader also, for example John Chrysostom in the 4th century called him the leader of the world.

 

[vern_humphrey]

ahimsaman72:

First, you say “churches”, now you are saying “independent entities”. If you would use the same designation throughout, then there would be less confusion on the part of the readers.

So, when you quote this number and label them as “churches”, are you talking about denominations or individual churches with their own independent charters of government?.

I’m talking about separate, independent organizations claiming to be churches, and applying for tax exemption.

Is that clear enough for you?

ahimsaman72:

Because the sense I get when I see this ridiculous number thrown around the forum is that it is supposedly proof-positive of warring factions of protestantism that can’t agree on one iota of doctrine, which is simply not true and deceptive. .

If the difference between one demonimation and another for them to form separate, independent organizations, then the difference is as real as it gets.

I

ahimsaman72:

f you are referring to individual churches then I agree with the number. If you are referring to denominations, then you are misleading people.

According to the papers they file, each one of them is an independent entity, calling itself a church. If THEY call themselves churches, who are you to disagree?

I

ahimsaman72:

No, you are switching the subject to make up for your slanderous errors…

“Slanderous?” Have you run out of logic and resorted to name calling?

In reasoned debate, that’s usually the sign one has lost the argument.

ahimsaman72:

There is a huge difference between 33,000 and 300. Not all “proclaim” they hold the only source of truth, which is another deceptive philosophy used by people such as yourself based on degenerating your brothers and sisters in Christ…

Is there a church that proclaims it teaches falsely? Can there be more than one truth?

When a church splits, the off-shoots must of necessity either proclaim their version of the truth, or admit they are not in possession of the truth.

From that standpoint, a half-dozen competing “truths” would be enough and more than enough to prove my point. So 300 would be far more then I need, let alone 33,000.

ahimsaman72:

Most hold the Scripture as their sole source of doctrine. While they may differ about interpretation (as early church fathers also did), they still hold the same certain standard of doctrine. Your truth is narrow as defined by your denomination.

If the difference is enough to have one denomination split from another, it’s a serious difference, no matter what you say.

ahimsaman72:

And, by the way, since when did the IRS become an authoritative and valid source of religious entities and discerner of truth?

The IRS doesn’t – the 33,000 separate churches say it. They say it by filing documents with the IRS claiming to be separate, independent churches.

 

[michael777]

MariaG:

Michael,

I certainly understand not wishing to study anything but God’s inspired word. In fact, I came to the Catholic church from a Bible alone Church. It was through the leading of the Holy Spirit and His Sacred Scripture that I was shown the truth. **I did not study anything else but Scripture. **

I pointed it out to you because once I was shown the truth, I could then look at what the early church taught. It is consistent with the teaching of the Catholic Church.

But okay, for you, let’s stick with just Scripture since we both know it is God’s inspired word.

First off, you are confusing two different issues, the infallibility of the pope and the primacy of the Pope. As this thread is dealing with the primacy, I would encourage you to start a new thread dealing with infallibility. Bring up your statement just as you already posted, it would be a great discussion starter.

As for taking things in context, I 100% agree. So lets take Matthew 16:13-19 in context of the Bible. What in the Bible does it say about keys? In the OT (I’ll find it if you wish, or I know others know the exact spot, sorry) it does speak of keys. Keys in the Bible are always given to the one in authority over all others. In history this is also reflected, but since we need to stick to the Bible, we can say that the understanding of keys and the authority they imparted was well understood by the apostles from the OT. So in context, they all understood what Jesus was doing and saying.

How do you reconcile the meaning of keys and authority and the words of Jesus directly to Peter? Explain your interpretation and context of the keys and how that did not mean Peter would be in charge.

God Bless,

Maria

Oik
for a start man is not in charge of the kingdom.

Also keys unlock things

Which is simlar to what jesus said to his followers and the many in the crwod WHO LISTENED AND RECIEVED WHAT HE WAS SAYING
WHEN HE SAID to you the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given.

As to authority yes the keys mean authority but peter had no greater authority where the kingdom of heaven was concerned
for anyone who had faith could ask and be given anything in line with Gods will.

Peter had no more authorotiy than others on teaching for example
Partly because he had no greater knowledge and partly because Jesus made no distinction where teaching was concerned he also chose others before peter in regards to revelations that would aid in teaching.

And now for another more obvious reason

what actually is the kingdom of heaven?

the answer is this.

it is peace joy and rightiousness in the Holy Spirit.

was peter more rightious
was peter more joyous?
did peter have more peace?

 

[Mickey]

vern humphrey:

From that standpoint, a half-dozen competing “truths” would be enough and more than enough to prove my point. So 300 would be far more then I need, let alone 33,000.

It’s been about one hour since you posted this Vern, so I believe the number now stands at 33,005. Sorry to be so detail oriented, but there are new splits hourly.

 

[vern_humphrey]

michael777:

Oik
for a start man is not in charge of the kingdom.

So you believe Jesus lied when he said;

17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Peter is given the keys – that is the symbol of stewardship. A steward was a person appointed to take care of the master’s business in the master’s absense. Which describes Peter’s role exactly – and that of every Pope since.

 

[jimmy]

michael777:

Oik
for a start man is not in charge of the kingdom.

Also keys unlock things

Which is simlar to what jesus said to his followers and the many in the crwod WHO LISTENNED AND RECOEVED WHAT HE WAS SAYING
WHEN HE SAID to you the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given.

As to authority yes the keys mean authority but peter had no greater authority where the kingdom of heaven was concerned
for anyone who had faith could ask and be given anything in line with Gods will.

Peter had no authorotiy on teaching for example
Partly because he ahd no greater knowledge and partly because Jesus made no distinction where teaching was concerned he chose others before peter in regards to revealtions that would aid in teaching.

That is false, the keys were given to Peter alone, and can be proven from the Greek. No one else was given this authority. You have the burden of proof to prove that Christ gave this authority to others.

The early Church recognized that Peter had the authority of all the apostles put together. In fact, Chrysostom says pretty much exactly that. No one had the authority that was given to Peter, other than him who gave it.

 

[michael777]

I never believe Jesus ever lied!!!

Oik
for a start man is not in charge of the kingdom.

Also keys unlock things

Which is simlar to what jesus said to his followers and the many in the crwod WHO LISTENED AND RECIEVED WHAT HE WAS SAYING
WHEN HE SAID to you the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given.

As to authority yes the keys mean authority but peter had no greater authority where the kingdom of heaven was concerned
for anyone who had faith could ask and be given anything in line with Gods will.

Peter had no more authorotiy than others on teaching for example
Partly because he had no greater knowledge and partly because Jesus made no distinction where teaching was concerned he also chose others before peter in regards to revelations that would aid in teaching.

And now for another more obvious reason

what actually is the kingdom of heaven?

the answer is this.

it is peace joy and rightiousness in the Holy Spirit.

was peter more rightious
was peter more joyous?
did peter have more peace?
or put it this way
could peter damn someone so they could not recieve the kingdom of heaven?
was that how is authoritiy was greater than all others?
i dont think so only we ourselves can do that.
ultimately via our own free will through our own refusal to hear Gods offer of salvation.

 

[jimmy]

michael777:

Oik
for a start man is not in charge of the kingdom.

Also keys unlock things

Which is simlar to what jesus said to his followers and the many in the crwod WHO LISTENED AND RECIEVED WHAT HE WAS SAYING
WHEN HE SAID to you the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given.

As to authority yes the keys mean authority but peter had no greater authority where the kingdom of heaven was concerned
for anyone who had faith could ask and be given anything in line with Gods will.

Peter had no more authorotiy than others on teaching for example
Partly because he had no greater knowledge and partly because Jesus made no distinction where teaching was concerned he also chose others before peter in regards to revelations that would aid in teaching.

And now for another more obvious reason

what actually is the kingdom of heaven?

the answer is this.

it is peace joy and rightiousness in the Holy Spirit.

was peter more rightious
was peter more joyous?
did peter have more peace?

Correct, Peter was not in charge of the kingdom of heaven, but he was in charge of the kingdom on earth. He could bind and loose, and no one could unbind what he had bound, or unloose what he had loosed. He had authority over all the world to teach. Christ promised him that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church, and I trust him.

 

[jimmy]

michael777:

I never believe Jesus ever lied!!!

I agree, Jesus never lied.