Why the American Catholic Church have to be patriotic

[Jozefo]

I think the flags should go away, sort of degrades the idea of universality, the “catholicism,” of Catholicism. I think you can be a “bad american” and a good Catholic.

But I’m not at all opposed to singing a hymn asking God to bless our nation.

QFT

Pardon my ignorance, but what is QFT?

 

[Stella_Matutina]

This thread is similar to a conversation I was having with someone earlier about the Knights of Columbus. When you join the Knights (a Catholic men’s organization) there are four degrees of membership. Charity, Unity, Fraternity and the fourth and final degree is Patriotism. Yeah, I know: Patriotism. It is the highest degree and highest honor in the organization.

Why???

 

[Lawrence178]

Can you be a “bad son” to your parents and be a good Catholic?

Notice the quotation marks. I will be as good an american as I can, but that won’t interfere with my faith, even if that means being seen as a bad american.

In the same way, I constantly endeavor to honor my father and make him happy. But he is unhappy that I am becoming a priest when he wants me to be an engineer and give him many grandchildren. So in that way I am a “bad son,” do you see what I am getting at now?

Pardon my ignorance, but what is QFT?

Sorry, QFT=Quoted for truth

 

[Linux]

Unless each Mass is started off with the national anthem and there are flags up front on the altar, then why would it be an issue.

We can be proud of our countries (mostly) and signing Oh Canada or the Star Spangled Banner after Mass has concluded is probably okay.

But if your priest wears a red/white/blue stole or robe, then you’re in trouble.

So if there was a Catholic church in oh lets say Iraq, then it would be okay to put the iraq flag on the alters yes? Even better, can people from other countries put their flags in an American church on the forth of July, or is that particular day about glorifying a secular American holiday in the name of God? Is it exclusively American christianity for Americans.

 

[Linux]

I’m not sure why but personally I believe that churches can go too far with the Patriotism on July 4th. This is coming from a person who really isn’t overly Patriotic (which is weird because I used to be very), but I go to one of those Evangelical Bible churches that just go way overboard the Sunday before the 4th; giant American flags everywhere, American flag pins given out to every person, choir and orchestra wearing red, white and blue, every song one of those patriotic songs including like those military dillies whatever they’re called (sorry mind is blank right now) and people of different branches standing during the singing, and finally the pastor giving a sermon devoted to how great and wonderful America is. That I believe is an example of going too far, and if it happened in a Catholic Church then I would probably be very uncomfortable. Too me, doing something that is way too hyper-nationalistic and borders on idolatry, if a church wants to put a flag up here and there (but not those giant ones) and maybe have some 4th of July party or picnic or whatever then that would be fine. But I don’t think during the church is the best place to do those things, we’re supposed to be praising God not a secular country.

 

[Mumbles140]

I think the flags should go away, sort of degrades the idea of universality, the “catholicism,” of Catholicism.

QFT

Not sure about where you live, but we have the American flag on one flag pole and the Vatican Flag on a higher flag pole. I’ve also seen the state flag flown outside of Churches. However, in all those instances of flags, I’ve never seen one that excluded the Vatican flag.

 

[Mumbles140]

So if there was a Catholic church in oh lets say Iraq, then it would be okay to put the iraq flag on the alters yes? Even better, can people from other countries put their flags in an American church on the forth of July, or is that particular day about glorifying a secular American holiday in the name of God? Is it exclusively American christianity for Americans.

So long as the display does not take away from the Mass and is in accordance with the GIRM, I certainly believe it is OK. As for other countries, I’m not sure that is appropriate, especially if the American display is specifically for the 4th. Would it be appropriate to fly the Union Jack at a Cathedral in Dublin on St. Patrick’s Day? No, it would create a distraction that would draw away from the Mass, and that is not ok.

Also, I’m troubled by your phrasing “glorifying a secular American holiday in the name of God”. We aren’t glorifying a secular holiday, we are celebrating it. And that holiday marks the day we broke away from a foreign ruler and became our own nation. So, for those of us who care to, Mass is typically offered with a theme of God protecting our nation, watching over us, hearing our prayers, and protecting our leaders. God is glorified, and His Providence and protection are prayed for. No one is offering up prayers to George, John, or Thomas.

 

[Lawrence178]

Not sure about where you live, but we have the American flag on one flag pole and the Vatican Flag on a higher flag pole. I’ve also seen the state flag flown outside of Churches. However, in all those instances of flags, I’ve never seen one that excluded the Vatican flag.

The Vatican flag is above the American flag? I completely agree with that, the Church is infinitely more important than the nation. But it makes you a “bad american” in the sense that you are not in compliance with Title 4 of the United States Code. The Boy Scouts taught me flag etiquette, that it is essential to be a good patriot.

“No other flag should be placed above it. The flag of the United States is always the first flag raised and the last to be lowered.
When flown with the national banner of other countries, each flag must be displayed from a separate pole of the same height.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code#Displaying_the_flag_outdoors

But I’m talking more about inside the churches, in the sanctuary where we worship God. Flags just don’t belong there IMO.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13teste.htm and did Leo XIII agree that he misunderstood ?

I do not know whether Leo XIII was convinced by the American bishops’ arguments that they and their flock did not hold the errors they were accused of [edit: or warned against if not actually accused]. I do know that there has been (or at least so it is often argued) a long history of the Vatican or ecumenical councils badly misunderstanding people or groups and wrongly condemning them. In such cases we are to accept the doctrinal content of such documents even if there is good reason to believe that the people the criticisms or anathemas were directed to did not believe the heresies in question.

In any case the whole Americanism issue was prompted in large part by developments in France, which the Pope presumably had a better grasp on. What he was reacting to was, perhaps, more the French misunderstanding or misrepresentation of American ideals than anything which actually existed in America.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Notice the quotation marks. I will be as good an american as I can, but that won’t interfere with my faith, even if that means being seen as a bad american.

In the same way, I constantly endeavor to honor my father and make him happy. But he is unhappy that I am becoming a priest when he wants me to be an engineer and give him many grandchildren. So in that way I am a “bad son,” do you see what I am getting at now?

Sorry, QFT=Quoted for truth

Fair enough, though you can see how such a statement could easily be taken as a repudiation of authentic patriotism.

 

[Mumbles140]

The Vatican flag is above the American flag? I completely agree with that, the Church is infinitely more important than the nation. But it makes you a “bad american” in the sense that you are not in compliance with Title 4 of the United States Code. The Boy Scouts taught me flag etiquette, that it is essential to be a good patriot.

“No other flag should be placed above it. The flag of the United States is always the first flag raised and the last to be lowered.
When flown with the national banner of other countries, each flag must be displayed from a separate pole of the same height.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code#Displaying_the_flag_outdoors

But I’m talking more about inside the churches, in the sanctuary where we worship God. Flags just don’t belong there IMO.

Maybe they are the same height outside? Was not aware of Title 4 of the US Code, but interesting fact

As for inside, I don’t mind if it is off to the side (as you would expect in a courtroom or school auditorium), but only on special days (i.e. 4th of July, Thanksgiving, etc) important to our nation’s history, not necessarily as an ‘all the time’ thing.

 

[Linux]

So long as the display does not take away from the Mass and is in accordance with the GIRM, I certainly believe it is OK. As for other countries, I’m not sure that is appropriate, especially if the American display is specifically for the 4th. Would it be appropriate to fly the Union Jack at a Cathedral in Dublin on St. Patrick’s Day? No, it would create a distraction that would draw away from the Mass, and that is not ok…

If a person from another country happens to have a celebration that falls on that day, why should the Catholic Church place your celebration above someone else’s celebration?

So you are saying that the Catholic church on the forth of July in America excludes all other flags? I think any flag in the church is a distraction from why we are coming to church in the first place. Its not the American Catholic Church, it is just the Catholic Church.

Also, I’m troubled by your phrasing “glorifying a secular American holiday in the name of God”. We aren’t glorifying a secular holiday, we are celebrating it. .

Is it appropriate to use the Catholic church as a celebration of that day?

And that holiday marks the day we broke away from a foreign ruler and became our own nation. So, for those of us who care to, Mass is typically offered with a theme of God protecting our nation, watching over us, hearing our prayers, and protecting our leaders. God is glorified, and His Providence and protection are prayed for. No one is offering up prayers to George, John, or Thomas.

Is it not the case that God protects and values all nations, or is America Gods nation on earth? It seems inappropriate to me to use the Catholic church to glorify an American holiday which you are doing if you are excluding other flags on that day…

 

[RayonGama]

In chuch lobby, the American Flag is higher than the Vatican flag.

 

[Mumbles140]

If a person from another country happens to have a celebration that falls on that day, why should the Catholic Church place your celebration above someone else’s celebration?

So you are saying that the Catholic church on the forth of July in America excludes all other flags? I think any flag in the church is a distraction from why we are coming to church in the first place. Its not the American Catholic Church, it is just the Catholic Church.

Is it appropriate to use the Catholic church as a celebration of that day?

Is it not the case that God protects and values all nations, or is America Gods nation on earth? It seems inappropriate to me to use the Catholic church to glorify an American holiday which you are doing if you are excluding other flags on that day…

1. The Catholic Church in America only - we have different holy days, fasting requirements, etc - the universal Church doesn’t have to celebrate the 4th.
2. If you are against the use of flags personally, then understood. But if it is not against the GIRM and the Pastor approves, would you attempt to block it?
3. Again, the Church in America is under the rule of the USCCB, and they submit to the authority of the Pope. But your argument would also mean all American Catholics would be in mortal sin for not attending Mass on holy days observed in other countries.
4. God respects all of His people, so should I not offer God prayers of thanksgiving and petition for myself?
5. You have it backwards - we are not using the Church to glorify America - while celebrating America, we bring her needs to God and offer our thanks to Him for blessing us, as He blesses all nations.

 

[Zachary]

Much ado about nothing!!!

If you notice a church overdoing it, report it to the bishop. Otherwise, there’s nothing wrong with celebrating the land in which you live “in front” of God.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am from another country. When I came here I was shocked on how much importance there is for patriotism in the catholic church.

Maybe it is just something you never realized, part of life. There is so much emphasis when it’s 4th of July. American Flag outside the church, Flag inside, flag behind or hooked to the altar. Ribbons of red blue, white around the crucifix.

What is it all about?

Please don’t be offended by my post…

Other than singing God Bless America or the Battle Hymn of the Republic (grrrr!) on the 4th of July, my parish has none of the trappings of Patriotism you describe, and I don’t ever recall a parish which did come to think of it.