Why the bible is most assuredly not a Catholic book,

[Zooey]

Do you honestly believe that when one becomes Born Again that in heaven they say oh this one is born again Baptist this one born again Catholic this one born again Methodist?

In Heaven? Are you asking me?? No.
Are you asking my Baptist relatives?http://www.policeexplorers.us/forums/images/smilies/1smilies2/sad.gif I mean, I have been introduced to some of their friends, as “My niece, [Zooey], who actually is a Christian ,** even though she’s still a Methodist**”.
(Yes, they ask me. I love them & forgive them…but I have to grind my teeth a lot ).

Christians have been grafted in. God gave Abraham an everlasting covenant. Can you define everlasting?

So, let me get this straight: Karl Marx…is in Heaven?? And St Francis of Assisi went to hell?? 'Cause that’s pretty much what you just said…

I think you may want to re-think your premise…(At least, I certainly hope so).
Sheesh.

Agreed…

Mary was venerated before Christ was born - most notably by the angel Gabriel, and her cousin Elizabeth. The “Hail Mary” is a Biblical prayer.

Which would make veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary part of --Wait for it!–part of the Gospel!!

Reminder to self: “Self, don’t forget to pray your rosary tonight!”

PS to self: “Self, tomorrow will be too hot to go out. Why not make some rosaries, instead of spending the day grouching about the heat?”

[SIGN]

[/SIGN]

 

[corkybob]

The Bible (new testiment) was written by the Catholic Churches bishops and priests. Peter was the patriarch of Rome and may be for a time Antioch. Thus when Peter died he was a Roman Catholic, its principle bishop. Mark was the bishop of the Egyption church. At this time the Eglyption Church was Catholic. Matthew, being an Apostle was a bishop. Luke was a Greek Priest of the Catholic Church. John was the principle bishop in Ephisus which was Catholic at the time. Paul was a missionary bishop who spread the faith and that faith was Catholic. James was James the less, also knowned as James the son of Alpheus, and was also known as James the son of Cloephes. He was the principle Catholic bishop of Jerusalem. Jude was his brother who was a Catholic bishop.

Secondary proofs come from the fact that all that we know of those Apostles lives that were not written as part of scripture comes from Catholic oral tradition. The Church in India told missionaries of the early Church that a man by the name of THomas came and thought them the gosple of Matthew. The Chlurch realized that the Apostle Thomas did indeed go east. This there teachings the church realized that they were indeed Catholic teachings. Thus this is the oral tradition that says that Thomas went to India, established a Church and he remained until his martyrdom at the hands of the hindus. Thus the Patriarch of the Caldians sits on the chair (authority of) Thomas.

Thus the Catholic Church, having the authority, the history, and the teachings of the Apostles, makes the Catholic Church the Christian Church from whom all others are judged on how much orthodoxy exsists.

The bible teaches Christian doctrine. It reflects the teachings that Christ gave and the Apostles taught. In other words the bible is Catholic teaching.

Those teachings that you disagree with the Catholic Church because of biblical basis are errors not in the Catholic Church but those that you teach. There are some teachings that we both agree on but we do not communicate between each other.

Pax
John

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Jesus diddnt want any non-jew having a part of his teachings. He said that you should not throw dogs food. Divinely correct as he was, he was shamed by the woman begging him to heal into doing so simply by her admitting her tribe were dogs and that they ate the crumbs from the table.
He cant have been too convinced by his own commands.

To reinforce his xenophobia, he also said “I have been sent but to the children of israel”. Not the* children of Leeds*, the children of Israel.

Straight from the gaffer.

Yet he commanded the apostles to go an spread the Gospel to all the world. Yes he was sent to be the primarily the Savior of Zion. but also for the world.

 

[Hisalone]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=258291

maybe you’d join us and tell us about the 1st cent. Church.

Catholic fallicy is that they insist on defining Community so that they are the only members of the Community or Congregation. They have done this in response to those who have rejected some of their claims. Thus Catolics assert they are thhe only "true congregation/or only true community. Which is of couse false. Any Chrisitian who has Christ—many , many Catholics do not, for that matter many Protestants do not either, but any Christian who has Christ is part of Christs Community or Christs Congregation.

 

[Pro_Domina]

Catholic fallicy is that they insist on defining Community so that they are the only members of the Community or Congregation. They have done this in response to those who have rejected some of their claims. Thus Catolics assert they are thhe only "true congregation/or only true community. Which is of couse false. Any Chrisitian who has Christ—many , many Catholics do not, for that matter many Protestants do not either, but any Christian who has Christ is part of Christs Community or Christs Congregation.

I agree. If a Catholic does not practice virtue than he does not have Christ.

Now I know that a person who disobeys God and does whatever he wants, like making up some religion, cannot have Christ either.

 

[Hisalone]

Actually, I’ve been studying this quite a bit lately and historical evidence does appear to support that veneration of Mary and submission to the authority of Rome are very early doctrines (first few hundred years of the Church). As to satues and icons, those appeared in practice somewhat later - but the key issue there is whether they are objects of worship (they are not) or representations to assist in worship of Christ and the Father (which they are). The earliest examples of these are actually in the Hebrew scriptures (Cheribim on the Ark of the Covenant) and the brass serpant Moses created and had the Israelites look to at the command of God.

Blessings,

Brian

The cult of the virgin predated Mary. Even in the New Testament Jesus had to rebuke those that would place their focus on Mary rather than Him. Do not get me wrong Mary was mighty in her faith and deserving of admiration but not adoration.
The Cheribum and the serpent were commanded by God. God did not give liscence by these commands for us to decide that we would go hog wild and make.

 

[Hisalone]

What about Catholic Jews? One doesn’t cease to be a Jew because he converts to the true faith.

As many Jewish converts would say is that becoming a Christian has completed them as Jews.
There have been books written about “The one new man” when Jewish and Christian beleivers come together in fullness of faith.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Catholic fallicy is that they insist on defining Community so that they are the only members of the Community or Congregation. They have done this in response to those who have rejected some of their claims. Thus Catolics assert they are thhe only "true congregation/or only true community. Which is of couse false. Any Chrisitian who has Christ—many , many Catholics do not, for that matter many Protestants do not either, but any Christian who has Christ is part of Christs Community or Christs Congregation.

this is what you have been tought to believe. no one not even the umbelievers have done to so much damage to the Body of Christ as your religious groups have.

remember this. Jesus said whoever rejects you rejects me and whoever rejects me rejects the One who sent me. if you are not included in this category i dont know who is.

you have decided to join the haters of the Body of Christ instead of follow and obey His Church. this you are guilty of.

Jesus warnings. not every one who says Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but those who do the Will of my Father.
if the Will of the Father is the we be One, One faith, One baptism, One Spirit, One Lord, why do you follow divisionists who broke away from His Body? arent you just as guilt as they are who broke away from His True teachings?

St. Thomas Aquinas
**“According to the promise of the Lord, the Apostolic Church of Peter remains free from all taint of heresy or deceit in its pontiffs, the Popes, and in the full faith and authority of Peter, and while other churches are shamed by errors, she reigns the solitary Church, unshakably established, imposing silence and closing the mouths of heretics and we, of necessity for our salvation, proclaim and confess this as the pattern of holy, apostolic tradition.”

**

 

[Hisalone]

Mary was venerated from the first century

John rebuked in Revelations 6of the 7 churches.BTW 7 churches not ONE.
There was a falling out very quickly from The Way.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Catholic fallicy is that they insist on defining Community so that they are the only members of the Community or Congregation. They have done this in response to those who have rejected some of their claims. Thus Catolics assert they are thhe only "true congregation/or only true community. Which is of couse false. Any Chrisitian who has Christ—many , many Catholics do not, for that matter many Protestants do not either, but any Christian who has Christ is part of Christs Community or Christs Congregation.

sorry. The Church is the Body of Christ.

And He’s not the Invisble Man.

The Fathers show us that there is someone who would be able to commune in our Church today because they believed the same Faith (I’m speaking for the Orthodox now, but for much of the Vatican versus Protestant debate, it also applies) from the Apostles, every generation, up until and including the present day. For the principle behind this, consult Joshua 22:10-34. The Fathers are a witness between us and you, not another Bible.

 

[wisdomseeker]

John rebuked in Revelations 6of the 7 churches.BTW 7 churches not ONE.
There was a falling out very quickly from The Way.

what is the rebuke about? and why do you think St John had authority to rebuke all of them?

were these churches independent, were they allowed to teach a Gospel different from that of the Apostles?

i dont think so.

nice try though. continue the digging.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The cult of the virgin predated Mary.

You’re right. Honor Thy Father and Thy mother. Compare I Kings 1:15-6 and 2:19-20. Psalm 45:8-9 and Hebrews 1:8-9

Even in the New Testament Jesus had to rebuke those that would place their focus on Mary rather than Him.

Luke 11:28? Try Luke 2:51, 1:38, 41-3, 45, 48 (and the corroboration of Acts 1:14 and John 19:25).

Do not get me wrong Mary was mighty in her faith and deserving of admiration but not adoration.

Not adoration, but veneration.

As one of our hymns says:

It is not meet that man should see God,
Upon whom the ranks of Angels dare not glance.
But through you, O Virgin Theotokos [she who gave birth to God]
did the Word take Flesh and become manifest to men.
Therefore together with the angels, we call you blessed.

As the beginning line of a Coptic hymn sums it up:
Let us praise the pure Virgin
Who held within her
Him whom the Heavens could not contain.

The Cheribum and the serpent were commanded by God. God did not give liscence by these commands for us to decide that we would go hog wild and make.

God explained the prohibition of the second commandment (of which you admit, He cited exceptions even in the OT): “you saw nothing…therefore make no image.” John 1:14, 14:9 changes everything.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

John rebuked in Revelations 6of the 7 churches.BTW 7 churches not ONE.
There was a falling out very quickly from The Way.

So the gages of Hell prevailed, He was not with them unto the end of the age, and so He was a liar , Who claimed to be “the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life.”

He rebuked the disciples while He walked with them, so your point?

Btw, read Revelation again. You might see
“you tested those who claim to be Apostles and are not,”
“but you are rich”
“and you hold fast to My Name”
“as for your works, the last are more than the first”
“you have a few names you have not defiled their garments”
“I make them come and worship down at your feet (!) and to know that I have loved you”
“as many as I love, I rebuke and chastise”

That’s 7 for 7.

 

[Hisalone]

sorry. The Church is the Body of Christ.

And He’s not the Invisble Man.

The Fathers show us that there is someone who would be able to commune in our Church today because they believed the same Faith (I’m speaking for the Orthodox now, but for much of the Vatican versus Protestant debate, it also applies) from the Apostles, every generation, up until and including the present day. For the principle behind this, consult Joshua 22:10-34. The Fathers are a witness between us and you, not another Bible.

Protestants who are reborn and are Children of God are not seperated from God nor are they seperated from the Body of Christ. They have been united by the Holy Ghost and no man can seperate them. Those who are reborn children of God and mdmber of the Body of Christ are and always have been members of His congreagation.

 

[Hisalone]

what is the rebuke about? and why do you think St John had authority to rebuke all of them?

were these churches independent, were they allowed to teach a Gospel different from that of the Apostles?

i dont think so.

nice try though. continue the digging.

They were in fact independent.
Were te Ethiopians under Rome? No.
Again you fail.

 

[Hisalone]

Not adoration, but veneration.

As one of our hymns says:

It is not meet that man should see God,
Upon whom the ranks of Angels dare not glance.
But through you, O Virgin Theotokos [she who gave birth to God]
did the Word take Flesh and become manifest to men.
Therefore together with the angels, we call you blessed.

As the beginning line of a Coptic hymn sums it up:
Let us praise the pure Virgin
Who held within her
Him whom the Heavens could not contain.

God explained the prohibition of the second commandment (of which you admit, He cited exceptions even in the OT): “you saw nothing…therefore make no image.” John 1:14, 14:9 changes everything.

Vereration has led to adoration

“or of anything on the earth”

Certainly the Isrealites saw what was on the earth.
It is mans tendancy to cling to idols. That is much of the OT is about. A departure of the true God to embrace idols to be chastised to repent return to the true God only to go back to idols.

Put away your idols!

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Protestants who are reborn and are Children of God are not seperated from God nor are they seperated from the Body of Christ. They have been united by the Holy Ghost and no man can seperate them.

And were do you get that rebirth from? Who baptizes you? (Consult the parting words of the Lord in Matthew, and Romans 10:13-18, Luke 10:16).

And St. I Clement reiterates what the Lord (John 20:19-23) said (XLII-XLIV):

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the command of the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from the command of God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture in a certain place, “I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.” [Isaiah 60:17, LXX].

And what wonder is it if those in Christ who were entrusted with such a duty by God, appointed those [ministers] before mentioned, when the blessed Moses also, “a faithful servant in all his house,” [Num. xii. 7; Heb. iii. 5]. noted down in the sacred books all the injunctions which were given him, and when the other prophets also followed him, bearing witness with one consent to the ordinances which he had appointed? For, when rivalry arose concerning the priesthood, and the tribes were contending among themselves as to which of them should be adorned with that glorious title, he commanded the twelve princes of the tribes to bring him their rods, every tribe being written according to its name. And he took them and bound them [together], and sealed them with the rings of the princes of the tribes, and laid them up in the tabernacle of witness on the table of God. And having shut the doors of the tabernacle, he sealed the keys, as he had done the rods, and said to them, Men and brethren, the tribe whose rod shall blossom has God chosen to fulfil the office of the priesthood, and to minister unto Him. And when the morning was come, he assembled all Israel, six hundred thousand men, and showed the seals to the princes of the tribes, and opened the tabernacle of witness, and brought forth the rods. And the rod of Aaron was found not only to have blossomed, but to bear fruit upon it. [See Num. xvii]. What think ye, beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would happen? Undoubtedly he knew; but he acted thus, that there might be no sedition in Israel, and that the name of the true and only God might be glorified; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the title of bishop. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, . or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties/presented the offerings. Blessed are those presbyters/elders/priests who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them.

Those who are reborn children of God and mdmber of the Body of Christ are and always have been members of His congreagation.

 

[wisdomseeker]

They were in fact independent.
Were te Ethiopians under Rome? No.
Again you fail.

and how do you explain that St John had authority over them?

were they preaching different gospel?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Vereration has led to adoration

Yes. Like veneration of the Bible has led to sola scriptura.

“or of anything on the earth”

Certainly the Isrealites saw what was on the earth.
It is mans tendancy to cling to idols. That is much of the OT is about.

and Christ brought the NT.

A departure of the true God to embrace idols to be chastised to repent return to the true God only to go back to idols.

Put away your idols!

I have. I went from Protestantism and embraced Orthodoxy.

 

[redrosetea]

Only someone so blinded by their own lack of knowing about Church practices would ever mix veneration and adoration

You can have you own opinion, but not your own facts