Why the bible is most assuredly not a Catholic book,

[po18guy]

That’s the problem. “Venerating” anything but God is a violation of the first commandment.

It bans having a God other than the One True God. Nothing we choose to venerate is, or will ever become a god. Never mind what it looks like. Understanding will open eyes to the truth. What you personally believe at this time makes not one whit of difference to the truth.

I understand that Catholics do not believe they are in an act of worship when venerating an image. Whether it’s a crucifix or a statue of Christ or Mary. The Israelites did not think so either with that whole golden calf affair.

Please do not draw false connections, or keep referring to the old covenant. We are under the new covenant, subject to the binding and loosing of the church authority. Because you disagree makes not one whit of difference to the truth.

Again, you cannot simply overlay a Protestant template on Catholicism and then begin to point out the misfit. It may sound uncharitable, but you, in essence, have been blinded by theological error and speak out against that which you do not understand. You will not understand Catholicism without the illumination of the Holy Spirit. This has been shown innumerable times in Christian history.

Of course, we sincerely invite you to keep inquiring, as we have come to this faith after much searching, often from the very tradition which you now observe.

Just allow the very slight possibility that the Catholic church may be the One True Church, and see what eventually happens.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

So I should believe this theology of veneration simply on the word of a bishop rather than simply taking the first commandment to mean what it means?

Again, recent, simplified theology makes no distinction between veneration and worship. A 1,975 year old faith clearly has, and does. Did you read the definition link?

Anyway, what does this have to do with the 100% Catholic bible? What if the ever-fracturing Protestant world had attempted to canonize scripture? 35,000 bibles?

Christ’s peace.

 

[mercygate]

Well, not always, since you also have the tradition of venerating relics as sacred objects. As for venerating the person, that would equally be wrong.

Ya gadda problem wid relics, TU?

What about the bones of Elisha?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Ya gadda problem wid relics, TU?

What about the bones of Elisha?

What about them?

 

[jmcrae]

What about them?

They are relics that were venerated by the Apostles, and they had healing powers. (Someone was raised to life from the dead when his dead body touched the bones of Elisha.)

 

[TriuneUnity]

They are relics that were venerated by the Apostles, and they had healing powers. (Someone was raised to life from the dead when his dead body touched the bones of Elisha.)

Can you provide the reference that shows the Apostles venerated Elisha’s bones?

The miracle that was performed was done by God through the means of Elisha’s bones. This has nothing to do with relic veneration.

 

[po18guy]

The miracle that was performed was done by God through the means of Elisha’s bones. This has nothing to do with relic veneration.

Huh? This was the very cause of the veneration. The Lord, knowing our limitations, appeals to our human senses. Such supernatural power given by God to a created object clearly and reasonably lead to veneration of those bones.

How about the bronze serpent that God commanded Moses to create? Do you suppose that those who looked upon it and were healed then venerated it? They were forbidden to worship it, and Moses himself held it at the Lord’s command.

 

[mercygate]

Can you provide the reference that shows the Apostles venerated Elisha’s bones?

The miracle that was performed was done by God through the means of Elisha’s bones. This has nothing to do with relic veneration.

The miracle of Elisha’s bones has everything to do with the veneration of relics. It is clear scriptural warrant that God can work a miracle via the bones of His holy ones.

People are forever telling Catholics that the veneration of relics is unbiblical, yet 400 years after Joseph told his brothers to take his bones with him when they left Egypt, Moses and the gang carefully took them up and carried them out along when they left on the Passover. "for Joseph had solemnly sworn the people of Israel, saying, “God will visit you; then you must carry mybones with you from here.” [Ex. 13:19] and Joshua buried them at Shechem over the Jordan [Josh. 24:13], and Sirach 49:15 tells us: “And no man like Joseph has been born, and hisbones are cared for.”

Sounds like veneration to me.

 

[Mickey]

The miracle of Elisha’s bones has everything to do with the veneration of relics. It is clear scriptural warrant that God can work a miracle via the bones of His holy ones.

People are forever telling Catholics that the veneration of relics is unbiblical, yet 400 years after Joseph told his brothers to take his bones with him when they left Egypt, Moses and the gang carefully took them up and carried them out along when they left on the Passover. "for Joseph had solemnly sworn the people of Israel, saying, “God will visit you; then you must carry mybones with you from here.” [Ex. 13:19] and Joshua buried them at Shechem over the Jordan [Josh. 24:13], and Sirach 49:15 tells us: “And no man like Joseph has been born, and hisbones are cared for.”

Sounds like veneration to me.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Douay-Rheims:
Act 19:11 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles.
Act 19:12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons: and the diseases departed from them: and the wicked spirits went out of them.

New Jerusalem Bible:
Act 19:11 So remarkable were the miracles worked by God at Paul’s hands
Act 19:12 that handkerchiefs or aprons which had touched him were taken to the sick, and they were cured of their illnesses, and the evil spirits came out of them.

King James Version:
Act 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
Act 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

God Bless,
Prodigal Son1

 

[ChildofEden]

I had the understanding that the Bible is a universal book used by many different religions. What the bible not written by Jews and Christians? The bible has been revised many different times most protesants use the King James bible(66 books if I am correct) , the Jews use the Tanakh which only consists of the Old Testament, I being Catholic use St. Joseph or the Douay Rheims which consist of 76 books.

ChildofEden

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

That’s the problem. “Venerating” anything but God is a violation of the first commandment.

I understand that Catholics do not believe they are in an act of worship when venerating an image. Whether it’s a crucifix or a statue of Christ or Mary. The Israelites did not think so either with that whole golden calf affair.

Oh yes they did, they knew quite well that they were making an idol to worship as a god.

Exodus 32 >>
Douay-Rheims Bible
1 And the people seeing that Moses delayed to come down from the mount, gathering together against Aaron, said:** Arise, make us gods, that may go before us**: for as to this Moses, the man that brought us out of the land of Egypt, we know not what has befallen him.

 

[jmcrae]

Oh yes they did, they knew quite well that they were making an idol to worship as a god.

Exodus 32 >>
Douay-Rheims Bible
1 And the people seeing that Moses delayed to come down from the mount, gathering together against Aaron, said:** Arise, make us gods, that may go before us**: for as to this Moses, the man that brought us out of the land of Egypt, we know not what has befallen him.

Yes, and the reason was that they wanted to take up the worship of the Egyptian gods instead of God the Creator, because they thought that the Egyptian gods were more likely to help them - after all, Moses had apparently disappeared, and it didn’t seem like he was coming back.

 

[Gamera]

That’s the problem. “Venerating” anything but God is a violation of the first commandment.

When I venerate (show respect for) a judge by calling him “Your Honor,” is that a violation of the First Commandment? Suppose I don’t even like the judge, let alone worship him; I’m just following the custom of my profession as an attorney. How does my calling him “Your Honor” violate the First Commandment?

 

[wisdomseeker]

**Quote:
Originally Posted by TriuneUnity
That’s the problem. “Venerating” anything but God is a violation of the first commandment.

I understand that Catholics do not believe they are in an act of worship when venerating an image. Whether it’s a crucifix or a statue of Christ or Mary. The Israelites did not think so either with that whole golden calf affair. **

TU
this is all in your head.

yet the Lord never abandoned His people. He dealt with those in sin but never abandoned His Covenant with His people and He will never break His Covenant with His Church. you can look everywhere trying to find fault withing the CC to prove her wrong but you cant.

anybody who does wrong to our Lord within the Church will be dealt with by our God but His Church will remain pure and umblamished.

TU, go find another church to pick on. leave the CC alone. She is Holy.

you maybe the one commiting a gravy sin when you come against our Lord’s Church.

 

[TriuneUnity]

When I venerate (show respect for) a judge by calling him “Your Honor,” is that a violation of the First Commandment? Suppose I don’t even like the judge, let alone worship him; I’m just following the custom of my profession as an attorney. How does my calling him “Your Honor” violate the First Commandment?

Again, it is outside of a religious context, and you’re not asking the judge to intercede for you to the Father.

 

[TriuneUnity]

The miracle of Elisha’s bones has everything to do with the veneration of relics. It is clear scriptural warrant that God can work a miracle via the bones of His holy ones.

There isn’t any argument that God can do just about whatever He wants, using the means He chooses. There is, however, no evidence outside specific miracles recorded in Scripture that this has continued and every indication that it stopped with the death of the last apostle. But miracles being wrought by objects is not an argument from my end.

People are forever telling Catholics that the veneration of relics is unbiblical, yet 400 years after Joseph told his brothers to take his bones with him when they left Egypt, Moses and the gang carefully took them up and carried them out along when they left on the Passover. "for Joseph had solemnly sworn the people of Israel, saying, “God will visit you; then you must carry mybones with you from here.” [Ex. 13:19] and Joshua buried them at Shechem over the Jordan [Josh. 24:13], and Sirach 49:15 tells us: “And no man like Joseph has been born, and hisbones are cared for.”

Sounds like veneration to me.

And the Israelites set up an altar there, with candles around his skull and made daily pilgrimages to it for the intercession of St. Joseph? hehe

I am not arguing an issue of respect for the dead’s remains.

 

[Gamera]

Again, it is outside of a religious context, and you’re not asking the judge to intercede for you to the Father.

Again, everything has a religious context. Nothing in my life lacks a religious context, because my whole life belongs to Christ. My job has a religious context. My daily work has a religious context. My relationship with the judge and all other co-workers has a religious context.

No, I am not asking the judge to pray for me, but you are jumping back and forth between veneration and intercession. As far as intercession goes, why would my my asking another Christian to pray for me be a violation of the First Commandment?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Again, everything has a religious context. Nothing in my life lacks a religious context, because my whole life belongs to Christ. My job has a religious context. My daily work has a religious context. My relationship with the judge and all other co-workers has a religious context.

Then you’re mistaking what I am meaning by religious context. You are not including the judge as part of your religious liturgy and do not ring him with candles, incense, and prayers (at least, I hope you don’t).

No, I am not asking the judge to pray for me, but you are jumping back and forth between veneration and intercession. As far as intercession goes, why would my my asking another Christian to pray for me be a violation of the First Commandment?

Because God has instructed us to ask those among us in the Church Militant to pray for us. He has not done so with the Church Triumphant.

Intercession and veneration both share the same error; veneration not only brings the error of offering religious service to something other than God into it, it also adds the graven image prohibition.

 

[Gamera]

Then you’re mistaking what I am meaning by religious context. You are not including the judge as part of your religious liturgy and do not ring him with candles, incense, and prayers (at least, I hope you don’t). .

So, you think it’s acceptable to honor another person as long as it isn’t “religous honor.” Pretty subjective stuff. What differentiates “religious honor” from any other honor? Where can I find a list of criteria which tells me which honor is “religious honor” and which isn’t?

And what ever happened to, “…if one member is honored, all rejoice together,” 1 Cor 12:26? Shouldn’t we all be mourning the terrible sin of one member having been honored?

Because God has instructed us to ask those among us in the Church Militant to pray for us. He has not done so with the Church Triumphant…

“Instructed?” I’m not sure when God “instructed” us to ask members of the Church Militant to pray for us. He certainly permits it, just as He also permits us to ask members of the Church Triumphant to pray for us.

Intercession and veneration both share the same error; veneration not only brings the error of offering religious service to something other than God into it, it also adds the graven image prohibition.

You’re using the vague phrase “religious service” to gloss over a crucial distinction. The Hebrews offered “religious service” to the Ark of the Lord. That doesn’t mean they were worshipping the Ark. A Sunday School teacher offers “religious service” to children by educating them in the faith, but that doesn’t mean he worships the children.

A graven image is an image which is thought to be alive. I don’t think my religious pictures are alive. Therefore, they are not “graven images.”

Wouldn’t my showing respect for a photograph of my wife violate the First Commandment under your definition? After all, it has a “religious context” (marriage is a sacrament) and I treat my pictures of my wife with honor out of respect for the person depicted therein. Why isn’t that wrong, under your definition?