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GladTidings
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If the Mass has ended, and people clap, is it part of the liturgy at that point?
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0331
Guest
No, since the Mass is ended right after the dismissal.
However, it would be courteous to people who want to stay and pray more if everyone left quietly and reverently. And even if people aren’t visibly praying, it would still be respectful of the church as house of God if people left quietly.
However, it would be courteous to people who want to stay and pray more if everyone left quietly and reverently. And even if people aren’t visibly praying, it would still be respectful of the church as house of God if people left quietly.
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GladTidings
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I agree. I don’t know what the point was with these people. I feel they were trying to add to Mass. Or like when someone makes a good point, and the person next to them says, “yeah, what he said.” It seemed cheap somehow. Unless they were deeply moved and wanted to show their appreciation, I don’t get it.
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Roguish
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Orthodox as in Oriental Orthodox (e.g. Tewahedo), or do you mean “orthodox” as in “pretty strict RCC”? (I’ve attended OO Masses plenty; RCC Masses with African communities not so much.)
True as concerns the many different cultures throughout Africa. But as for the rest of the world, my own “experience sample” is pretty wide-ranging and I’ve never encountered it. Anyway, as I said I haven’t covered the entire globe so it could be that in it’s done in some places.
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Roseeurekacross
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Mass had ended. You are interpreting it as if
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Roseeurekacross
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And those who wrote the Psalms in Sacred Scripture don’t agree with your POV.
In fact they tell us to clap our hands and acclaim God with shouts of joy.
In fact they tell us to clap our hands and acclaim God with shouts of joy.
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Roseeurekacross
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Would you consider BC Psalmists of the Middle East a western culture? It has been a sign of worship of God and appreciation for at least 6 thousand years.
Africa is a continent, we cannot generalise and say oh in East Africa. we must name specific countries , such as Uganda.
Africa is a continent, we cannot generalise and say oh in East Africa. we must name specific countries , such as Uganda.
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Cor_ad_Cor
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This kind.
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0331
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It doesn’t seem as if the clapping cited by the original poster was worshipful, in line with the Psalm you quoted.
And even if it was, I can’t think of a place in the liturgy now where clapping would really be appropriate as worship. Sacrosanctum Concilium calls for silence, above all, to allow for contemplation of the mystery occurring during Mass.
In the words of Cardinal Sarah:
‘We must ensure that adoration is at the heart of our liturgical celebrations. The heart of our liturgy is the adoration of God. Too often we do not move from celebration to adoration, but if we do not do that I worry that we may not have always participated in the liturgy fully, internally. Two bodily dispositions are helpful, indeed indispensible here. The first is silence. If I am never silent, if the liturgy gives me no space for silent prayer and contemplation, how can I adore Christ, how can I connect with him in my heart and soul? Silence is very important, and not only before and after the liturgy. It is the foundation of any deep spiritual life.’
Cardinal Sarah, an African, also addresses inculturization in that same article.
And even if it was, I can’t think of a place in the liturgy now where clapping would really be appropriate as worship. Sacrosanctum Concilium calls for silence, above all, to allow for contemplation of the mystery occurring during Mass.
In the words of Cardinal Sarah:
‘We must ensure that adoration is at the heart of our liturgical celebrations. The heart of our liturgy is the adoration of God. Too often we do not move from celebration to adoration, but if we do not do that I worry that we may not have always participated in the liturgy fully, internally. Two bodily dispositions are helpful, indeed indispensible here. The first is silence. If I am never silent, if the liturgy gives me no space for silent prayer and contemplation, how can I adore Christ, how can I connect with him in my heart and soul? Silence is very important, and not only before and after the liturgy. It is the foundation of any deep spiritual life.’
Cardinal Sarah, an African, also addresses inculturization in that same article.
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Roseeurekacross
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The OP doesn’t seem to know why these people were clapping. So any comment on our part is absolutely useless conjecture.
Thats strange because i have been reading links on this thread about clapping during liturgy in some cultures.
The Second Vatican Council calls for worship in the Vernacular in specific local cultural settings. And there are rich traditions where liturgy is celebrated within cultural settings.
Adoration is internal, not external. I can hardly imagine one of the early martyrs, the first martyr whose feast day is tomorrow, saying nah, can’t worship God right now because I am in a prison cold hungry, noisy, etc etc etc.
We must learn to worship regardless of the surroundings. If we are distracted by the surroundings, we must work on pushing all those distractions aside, whether they come from internal or external sources.
This is the fundamental thing with Contemplative Prayer and the Jesus Prayer. How can you connect? How do you stop all the street sounds? You can’t. How do you stop the sound of babies and children and people coughing in Mass, you can’t. Silence is internal.
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0331
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The links to clapping in other cultures are hardly significant. In the article I cited, Cardinal Sarah—an African himself—addresses cultural additions to the Mass. And even if some small groups of people clap during the consecration or other places, it’s not a ‘thing’ in the vast tradition of the Church’s liturgy.
We can guess that the clapping the OP cited, since it came after the Mass ended, was probably intended as thanks to the choir. I see this weekly in my own parish. In fact, last Sunday there were several times people clapped during and after Mass, and none of them were worshipful. In all instances people clapped for human achievements.
Regarding silence and contemplation: Yes, we should be able to pray no matter what is going on around us. Silence is internal. But during Mass, the baseline should be exernal silence, to better allow for internal silence. You can’t help your baby crying or having a cough, or the rustling of missal pages. But clapping, talking, all that other stuff can be helped. External silence is the baseline for Mass, for the inside of the church.
We can guess that the clapping the OP cited, since it came after the Mass ended, was probably intended as thanks to the choir. I see this weekly in my own parish. In fact, last Sunday there were several times people clapped during and after Mass, and none of them were worshipful. In all instances people clapped for human achievements.
Regarding silence and contemplation: Yes, we should be able to pray no matter what is going on around us. Silence is internal. But during Mass, the baseline should be exernal silence, to better allow for internal silence. You can’t help your baby crying or having a cough, or the rustling of missal pages. But clapping, talking, all that other stuff can be helped. External silence is the baseline for Mass, for the inside of the church.
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ricmat
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There is a correct time and place (and an incorrect time and place) for everything.
Genesis 1 tells us to “go forth and multiply.” Does that mean we should do it during Mass?
Some other posters have mentioned that in their cultures, clapping “for God” is acceptable, and is therefore part of the Mass. OK (maybe). But in the US, clapping is associated with “giving one’s approval (with a big dose of glory included)” and I don’t think that we should be the ones to make that decision about the details of the Mass.
In any case, Merry Christmas to all!!
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Shasta-Rose
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Went to 10:00 p.m. Mass. Very crowded. Very joyous crowd. The music was great, as we had extra musicians. At the end, Father said how much we appreciated the extra musicians and how they added to our enjoyment of the Mass, and he invited us all to applaud them, which we did with great enthusiasm. Seems appropriate to me.
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Cor_ad_Cor
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It’s great that you have respect and admiration for Cardinal Sarah, but his opinions don’t necessarily outweigh the other points raised on this thread. After all, the liturgy is of the people, and that should explicitly (as previously stated and referenced in Vatican II documents) give room for different cultures and people. I agree with you that silence is of critical importance to our liturgy. So is this leeway for expression, if for no other reasons than good pastoral sense. My main point though is in response to this statement:
It IS a “thing” — now. It has been for them for a while, and you’re learning about it perhaps, but please don’t be dismissive of it simply because it’s not familiar to you. The “vast tradition of the Church’s liturgy” is inclusive of many things, including things the Church as a worldwide whole has abandoned for lack of relevant sensibilities (no one’s brought their chicken, sheep, or cow in lately for a donation around here - currency suffices), and that vast tradition includes things that are not the Western European norms and observances of the last 5 centuries as well.
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Sirach2
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I suspect you are making the leap from SC and Cdl. Sarah’s words on silence to infer that one is irreverent if he claps. This is commonly known as “out of context.” Sola scripturas have been known to do this, making the text fit their own predisposition.
It is somewhat well known that Cdl. Sarah is highly conservative in many ways, and as such, he is not in conformity with many of the Hierarchy who guide us. We cannot take the words from one Shepherd and make them a universal standard to be followed by all.
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Allegra
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I think it’s a little convoluted to suggest that because some people choose to clap for musicians and servers, that means that the musicians and servers are there for the wrong reason. Do you believe that the musicians and servers asked to be clapped for?
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ricmat
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I just got home from a Mass in which this sort of thing happened. Before the final blessing, the priest asked everybody to give a round of applause for [list of just about everybody in the parish].
- I think it’s wrong for the priest to do this during Mass. Rather, he could have said something like “When you run into the [list of just about everybody in the parish] outside of Mass, please tell them that you appreciate their service…” or something like that. But note that some people prefer not to be thanked.
- I suggest that if people choose to clap at inappropriate times (e.g. during Mass) , then the people doing the clapping are missing the point of Mass - which is to give glory and praise to God, not the choir, etc. They always have the option of talking to the choir members, etc. after Mass and tell them their music was beautiful…
- If people choose to clap at inappropriate times, then it is certainly not the fault of the choir, etc. IMHO the priest should remind people why they come to Mass, and quash the clapping. The Mass is about God, not us.
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Sirach2
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Joy is contagious, and it is contrary to nature to keep it silent and hidden. When a special occasion presents itself, folks come across like humbugs when they insist things be done their way. Why not swallow your negativity and simply rejoice?
Our new priest was just installed by our Bishop on 12/22, and the joy of our people was ecstatic. There was a lot of clapping, and some of it was even initiated by our Bishop! No way was it a good idea to keep it to oneself in silence. Our pastor was so overwhelmed by joy it was obvious he couldn’t control his tears.
Our new priest was just installed by our Bishop on 12/22, and the joy of our people was ecstatic. There was a lot of clapping, and some of it was even initiated by our Bishop! No way was it a good idea to keep it to oneself in silence. Our pastor was so overwhelmed by joy it was obvious he couldn’t control his tears.
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0331
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What Cardinal Sarah has said is in line with Pope Benedict (and what he wrote as Card. Ratzinger) and in line with Sacrosanctum Concilium, and the previous teaching about liturgical norms. Read the quote from Ratzinger in my first post on this thread.
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ricmat
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Just out of curiosity, did this happen during Mass? Or some other event?
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