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Kaliaa
Guest
Is that because you are thinking that He did it for her; He could have done it for me?
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goout
Guest
Christ did not choose crucifixion, we did, collectively as human beings. Crucifixion was the method of state execution du jour. How much better it may be, if we simply choose the kingdom of God and follow God’s will.
But we don’t. We reject God.
We make Christ’s death the price of redemption , not God. Christ’s love consist of going all the way to bottom of the human pit, and enduring everything that is human, including cruelty, suffering, and death, and redeeming it for good.
Some of us may have seen a parent with a suffering child, and that parent says “I would do anything to take my child’s place and take away the sting of his illness”. That expresses God’s love for us.
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rosejmj
Guest
I guess. If he did it for Mary he could have done it for all humanity. And it is not as if it would have lessened our free will. We could still choose sin if we wanted.
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EZweber
Guest
Mary still suffered because of the Fall. Individual cases are also different because if an individual case is removed, our action still has a consequence. If God did the same thing with the entire race, it would nullify the consequences. You should also note that the Blessed Mother still needed a Redeemer.
Yes, Mary was “pre-redeemed” by Jesus. He died for her just like He did for everyone else. It’s just that she had to be without sin so she could be the Mother of God.
God is perfect Love. Once you understand what perfect Love is, everything will make a lot more sense.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Are you suggesting that we–meaning Adam and Eve–did not have free will before the Fall? If so, that is, if they had not disobeyed Gd, does that mean mankind would not have had free will and Gd would have indeed treated us like robots? Was the latter Gd’s original plan? If that is so, would Jesus’ sacrifice not have been necessary? I suppose Gd must have known the Fall would occur and so original sin would enter the world. So, in that sense, I also suppose Adam and Eve did not really have free will in disobeying Gd, or did they? If they did, then did they not make the right choice in disobeying Gd, because otherwise, none of us would have free will? Please clarify some of this for me as much as you can.
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EZweber
Guest
No, I am not in any way suggesting that. What part of my posts did you get that impression from? If they did not, the Fall is impossible since the nature of the Fall was a free rejection of God.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
You stated that concupiscence is the result of the Fall. In other words, before the Fall, there was no concupiscence. Therefore, I inferred there was no free will for Adam and Eve to sin. Or does this lack of free will before the Fall apply only to concupiscence and nothing else?
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EZweber
Guest
Concupiscence is a limitation of our free will. It gives the body a degree of coercion over the will. Man was less limited in his free will without concupiscence.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
OK then, I misunderstood the meaning of concupiscence. Thank you.
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EZweber
Guest
As I stated before, for God to remove the effects of our actions would be disrespectful of our free will. Original Sin is the effect of the Fall, so for God to remove it would be disrespectful of our free will.
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knightfall
Guest
Hello Rosejmj,
Let’s say this were true. Should the fact that Jesus freely chose to accept such a horrific death mean something to us?
When my son was 5 months old, he was diagnosed with cancer. The treatment he received over the next few years involved chemotherapy, radiation treatment and multiple surgeries. He lost much of his hair and would be frequently nauseous. We had to draw blood every month and eventually had to have a port installed in his chest to make that process easier for him. He was isolated in hospital during radiation treatment and we had to wear lead vests to be in the same room as him. I hated all the treatment, but praise God, he’s now 10 years old and in remission.
My point is, if the treatment for cancer is so awful, how awful must the disease be? Sin is a cancer in our lives. I think Jesus freely chose to accept such a horrible death in order to show us the horror of sin. If He accomplished the Atonement by merely snapping His finger, would we truly grasp the gravity of sin?
He can do any thing. And it’s fine for us to wonder why He chose to accept the cross. I just think we can come up with a more thoughtful reason than “masochistic”.
Maybe take a look at the writings of Anselm, especially Cur Deus Homo. I found it helpful.
Yours in Christ
po18guy
Well-known member
You seem stuck in a limited train of thought. Concupiscence you say? Why do we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation? Is it hate that offers us reconciliation, or love?
Love, to be pure, must be freely chosen. God most certainly knows this, as He is love itself. Those who love God alter or change their lives by His grace - another gift of love. Since we love Him, we strive to be as much like Him as we can, but we fall short or we would be God
Since we cannot climb to Him, He condescends to us so that we might, by His grace, attain to His Kingdom - proof positive of love.
It is all love.
Love, to be pure, must be freely chosen. God most certainly knows this, as He is love itself. Those who love God alter or change their lives by His grace - another gift of love. Since we love Him, we strive to be as much like Him as we can, but we fall short or we would be God
Since we cannot climb to Him, He condescends to us so that we might, by His grace, attain to His Kingdom - proof positive of love.
It is all love.
Hmmmm, not quite. Being without sin doesn’t make a person God, or equal to God. Mary was sinless but she isn’t God. Angels presumably do not sin, but they aren’t God. Animals don’t sin, but they aren’t God.
The difference between us and God isn’t that He is without sin and we are with sin. Though it’s true that He is sinless and we are sinful, even if we were without sin we wouldn’t be God or equal to God because He is the Creator and we are the creation.
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Hoosier-Daddy
Guest
No matter how Jesus died, there would he those who say “how could an all powerful immortal God die?” So honestly the question becomes why did he have to die. And that has everything to do with atonement, offering, sacrifice, justice, and prophecy.
po18guy
Well-known member
Not seeing your point.
Was not talking about being sinless.
Was not speaking of the Blessed Mother.
Was not addressing Creator versus creation.
Was speaking of our concupiscence.
Was addressing these scriptures and concepts as they relate to the necessity of the crucifixion:
Was not talking about being sinless.
Was not speaking of the Blessed Mother.
Was not addressing Creator versus creation.
Was speaking of our concupiscence.
Was addressing these scriptures and concepts as they relate to the necessity of the crucifixion:
And even if not for our concupiscence, we still wouldn’t be God because He would still be the Creator and we would still be the creation.
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Aquinas11
Guest
What we want or need is secondary.
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Convert3
Guest
What astonishes me is that He willingly went to a horrible death for us out of pure love, then rose from the dead, yet there there are still those who didn’t believe. There are so many who don’t believe.
“ Fot the sake of His suffering passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”
“ Fot the sake of His suffering passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”
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