Why the hostility toward Mary?

[FidesSpesCarita]

You are continuing to offer arguments as to why Mary was sinless.

You need not do that, rinnie.

I loudly and proudly proclaim the dogma of the IC.

I am simply saying that some ways to defend this dogma do not work. The one example of this is: Mary HAD to be sinless otherwise Jesus could not have entered her womb.

This is a poor argument and should not be used, else the NCC will say, “Then how could Mary enter into a sinful vessel herself? Why could Mary do what Jesus can’t?”

This was the argument that made me dig into this. I found the best thing by accident when I was listening to Father Corapi. He said something along the lines of “God could, He should, so He did” make her sinless. It was not a question of necessity since Christ obviously lived, moved, touched, interacted in a sinful world and with sinners, but it was fitting.

I suppose the way to think about it is if you were God, would you require a sinless mother? Or would you WANT your mother to never be a slave to sin, since everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin? Would you protect your mother, who you are called to love, respect, and obey above all except the Lord from the filth of sin?

It was not necessary, but since God could do this, and He should do this, He did make her sinless.

At least thats my opinion of it and I know it has been stated before… I just like to take $.02 out of my pocket and pass them around.

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[FidesSpesCarita]

PR, Listen to what I am saying. Mary was sinless BECAUSE she was saved from Original Sin from God at the second of her conception, we agree on that. But why did she need to be saved from OS at her conception by God?

Simple PR BECAUSE she was not born of that Perfect SINLESS VESSEL like Jesus was. Do you see what I am saying?

Mary needed JESUS to save her, It is only because the merits of Jesus that she was perserved without sin. It never touched her because at the second of her conception she was saved. Being that GOD saved her, she COULD BE the perfect vessel to be the New Ark made pure.

If God would have saved Anna at her conception then Mary would not have inherited Original Sin either. Do you see what I am saying. Then if she did not have OS when would not have needed a Savior either.

So what you are saying is that Mary had to be IC’ed in order to protect Jesus from Original Sin?

Your assumption, essentially, is that since Jesus took 100% of His humanity from His mother, then SHE had to be without sin in order that HE might also be sinless?

Just trying to find out the different points of view here…

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[Born_Warrior]

The Bible states that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. The Bible also states that Jesus had brothers and sisters. I know people say they could have been step-siblings or even cousins, but those interpretations are done by man. They are not Biblical.

(Mark 6:1-3 KJV)* And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. And when the Sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, from whence hath this man these things? And what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. *

(Mat 13:54-56 KJV) *And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? *

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Mary was sinless, that again is an interpretation from man. Only Jesus was born without sin, a fact that is mentioned several times in the Bible. Also, it states nowhere that you are to pray to Mary, and there is no need to. (1 Tim 2:5 KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

I was raised and baptized Greek Orthodox. I always questioned why we prayed to Mary. When my father was dying my uncle, who was a deacon, said a prayer asking Mary to heal my father. I questioned him later where it was in the Bible that we where suppose to pray to Mary. Of course, no where in the Bible does it say that.

I don’t care if someone reveres Mary or not. Whatever your thoughts are on Mary have nothing to do at all to do with Salvation. I think the biggest disagreements between Catholics and most non-Catholics about Mary is that all the reverence given to Mary is not by anything that is said in the Bible but what was written by man after she died. If she was a Perpetual Virgin, why was it not mentioned in the Bible? If she was sinless like Jesus, why is it not in the Bible? Why does the Bible not tell us that we can pray to Mary too?

Even though I think that Maryshould not be prayed to, she is still the mother of Jesus. She was pregnant at a time when unmarried pregnant women where shunned or even killed. People didn’t believe she was a virgin and thus was label a lair and far worse. She had the responsibility of raising the son of God (no small feat)! She then had to see him tortured, mutilated and be executed. She deserves respect and admiration for all of that. How many people are that strong that you know?

But there is no reason to pray to her.

 

[SnakeMauler]

The Bible states that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. The Bible also states that Jesus had brothers and sisters. I know people say they could have been step-siblings or even cousins, but those interpretations are done by man. They are not Biblical.

(Mark 6:1-3 KJV)* And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. And when the Sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, from whence hath this man these things? And what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. *

(Mat 13:54-56 KJV) *And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? *

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Mary was sinless, that again is an interpretation from man. Only Jesus was born without sin, a fact that is mentioned several times in the Bible. Also, it states nowhere that you are to pray to Mary, and there is no need to. (1 Tim 2:5 KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

I was raised and baptized Greek Orthodox. I always questioned why we prayed to Mary. When my father was dying my uncle, who was a deacon, said a prayer asking Mary to heal my father. I questioned him later where it was in the Bible that we where suppose to pray to Mary. Of course, no where in the Bible does it say that.

I don’t care if someone reveres Mary or not. Whatever your thoughts are on Mary have nothing to do at all to do with Salvation. I think the biggest disagreements between Catholics and most non-Catholics about Mary is that all the reverence given to Mary is not by anything that is said in the Bible but what was written by man after she died. If she was a Perpetual Virgin, why was it not mentioned in the Bible? If she was sinless like Jesus, why is it not in the Bible? Why does the Bible not tell us that we can pray to Mary too?

Even though I think that Maryshould not be prayed to, she is still the mother of Jesus. She was pregnant at a time when unmarried pregnant women where shunned or even killed. People didn’t believe she was a virgin and thus was label a lair and far worse. She had the responsibility of raising the son of God (no small feat)! She then had to see him tortured, mutilated and be executed. She deserves respect and admiration for all of that. How many people are that strong that you know?

But there is no reason to pray to her.

You’re wrong in saying “those interpretations” are done by man because the ancient language that it was written in uses terms which could be interpreted as being a few different relations. It’s irrelevent what your “New International Version” or whatever bible you use claims.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The Mary of Catholics is simply not viewed as the Mary of the Scriptures. We see you as trying to displace Jesus with your Mary of tradition.

Well, you don’t know the Mary of the Scriptures.

 

[rinnie]

So what you are saying is that Mary had to be IC’ed in order to protect Jesus from Original Sin?

Your assumption, essentially, is that since Jesus took 100% of His humanity from His mother, then SHE had to be without sin in order that HE might also be sinless?

Just trying to find out the different points of view here…

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Let me show this to you another way. Okay Protestants do not believe that a baby can sin and has to be Baptised right away because of Original sin. (now, not all, but many believe this,)

Now back to the point, a baby has to be baptised right away. We as Catholics believe that Baby has original sin and must be free from it, via Baptism. So we do it right away.

See we are born into sin that we got from our parents, why simple our parents were not born sinless either. Original Sin. Now Original sin is the URGE to sin that we all have in us,

That is what we call tainted by sin. IT is there, it exists.

Now the Blessed Mother was never tainted because the urge never was in her soul because it was wiped clean the second of her conception. Even a baby in the womb has original sin, the urge is there and the devil can destroy souls and temp them. Okay.

Now the Devil would never get a chance at her. God promised us that. She would be completely pure. Now think about this, if she was even the smallest tainted then God would get it from her. But he saved her from it.

Now she is completely free from sin. Now in order for the Savior to be born he had to be completely free from Sin. That means ALL SIN. Completely means what it says Complete. No chance.

Now in order for Baptism to work we needed someone completely SINLESS of any kind of sin OS or Actual sin to die for OUR SINS. There you Go!! Jesus Christ!!

She had to be saved from ALL SIN from her CONCEPTION so she the devil could never ever even tempt her. What I mean by tempt her is she would not even THINK to betray God ever. Just Like Jesus. No matter what the Devil did or tried worked.

Think about it. 2 people who the devil could never touch. God and the Blessed Mother.Why because NO SIN what so ever.

 

[Born_Warrior]

You’re wrong in saying “those interpretations” are done by man because the ancient language that it was written in uses terms which could be interpreted as being a few different relations. It’s irrelevent what your “New International Version” or whatever bible you use claims.

Show me in any version of the Bible where it states we are to pray to Mary, or that she remained a virgin.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Let me show this to you another way. Okay Protestants do not believe that a baby can sin and has to be Baptised right away because of Original sin. (now, not all, but many believe this,)

Now back to the point, a baby has to be baptised right away. We as Catholics believe that Baby has original sin and must be free from it, via Baptism. So we do it right away.

See we are born into sin that we got from our parents, why simple our parents were not born sinless either. Original Sin. Now Original sin is the URGE to sin that we all have in us,

That is what we call tainted by sin. IT is there, it exists.

Now the Blessed Mother was never tainted because the urge never was in her soul because it was wiped clean the second of her conception. Even a baby in the womb has original sin, the urge is there and the devil can destroy souls and temp them. Okay.

Now the Devil would never get a chance at her. God promised us that. She would be completely pure. Now think about this, if she was even the smallest tainted then God would get it from her. But he saved her from it.

Now she is completely free from sin. Now in order for the Savior to be born he had to be completely free from Sin. That means ALL SIN. Completely means what it says Complete. No chance.

Now in order for Baptism to work we needed someone completely SINLESS of any kind of sin OS or Actual sin to die for OUR SINS. There you Go!! Jesus Christ!!

She had to be saved from ALL SIN from her CONCEPTION so she the devil could never ever even tempt her. What I mean by tempt her is she would not even THINK to betray God ever. Just Like Jesus. No matter what the Devil did or tried worked.

Think about it. 2 people who the devil could never touch. God and the Blessed Mother.Why because NO SIN what so ever.

I dont disagree with any of this, with one slight modification. The Blessed Mother was sinless FROM the moment of her conception, not made sinless AT the moment of her conception. I think that is what you are getting at anyway, just a bit of a semantic difference.

My question was more along the lines of “Do you feel that it was NECESSARY for her to be immaculately conceived or was it fitting (i.e. proper)?”

Again, just trying to figure out your stance so I dont interject my idea of what your opinion is into what you actually say.

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[FidesSpesCarita]

Show me in any version of the Bible where it states we are to pray to Mary, or that she remained a virgin.

Show me in any version of the Bible where it states that God is three divine persons in one God and I will show you where it states that we are to pray to Mary.

You are also reading FAR too much into the word pray. Pray, fundamentally, means a request. Yes, some people take this too far, but it is simply what the Hail Mary states “Pray for us sinners”. We are asking her to join us in our supplications before the Lord.

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[rinnie]

The Bible states that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. The Bible also states that Jesus had brothers and sisters. I know people say they could have been step-siblings or even cousins, but those interpretations are done by man. They are not Biblical.

(Mark 6:1-3 KJV)* And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. And when the Sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, from whence hath this man these things? And what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. *

(Mat 13:54-56 KJV) *And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? *

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Mary was sinless, that again is an interpretation from man. Only Jesus was born without sin, a fact that is mentioned several times in the Bible. Also, it states nowhere that you are to pray to Mary, and there is no need to. (1 Tim 2:5 KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

I was raised and baptized Greek Orthodox. I always questioned why we prayed to Mary. When my father was dying my uncle, who was a deacon, said a prayer asking Mary to heal my father. I questioned him later where it was in the Bible that we where suppose to pray to Mary. Of course, no where in the Bible does it say that.

I don’t care if someone reveres Mary or not. Whatever your thoughts are on Mary have nothing to do at all to do with Salvation. I think the biggest disagreements between Catholics and most non-Catholics about Mary is that all the reverence given to Mary is not by anything that is said in the Bible but what was written by man after she died. If she was a Perpetual Virgin, why was it not mentioned in the Bible? If she was sinless like Jesus, why is it not in the Bible? Why does the Bible not tell us that we can pray to Mary too?

Even though I think that Maryshould not be prayed to, she is still the mother of Jesus. She was pregnant at a time when unmarried pregnant women where shunned or even killed. People didn’t believe she was a virgin and thus was label a lair and far worse. She had the responsibility of raising the son of God (no small feat)! She then had to see him tortured, mutilated and be executed. She deserves respect and admiration for all of that. How many people are that strong that you know?

But there is no reason to pray to her.

Well I am sorry but I cannot speak for what the Greek Orth. teach, but I have talked to alot of them on here, and I have never heard them say that they prayed to Mary either.

None of us ever said that, So maybe you should go back to the Greek Orth. Church and find out what they really preach, before you teach what you think they Teach.

We believe in the intercession of Saints as we are taught in the book Of Rev. We are told by the word that they can take our prayers to God and are with God to pray with us and for us. We never said to pray to them ever. IT was with them, and for us. never too them.

We like the Blessed Mother give ALL GLORY TO HER SON, JESUS CHRIST.

 

[Born_Warrior]

Let me show this to you another way. Okay Protestants do not believe that a baby can sin and has to be Baptised right away because of Original sin. (now, not all, but many believe this,)

Now the Blessed Mother was never tainted because the urge never was in her soul because it was wiped clean the second of her conception. Where does it say that in the Bible? The Bible states that only Jesus was born without sin.

Now the Devil would never get a chance at her. God promised us that. She would be completely pure. Now think about this, if she was even the smallest tainted then God would get it from her. But he saved her from it.

Now she is completely free from sin. Now in order for the Savior to be born he had to be completely free from Sin. That means ALL SIN. Completely means what it says Complete. No chance. Again, where in the Bible does it state that?

Now in order for Baptism to work we needed someone completely SINLESS of any kind of sin OS or Actual sin to die for OUR SINS. There you Go!! Jesus Christ!!

She had to be saved from ALL SIN from her CONCEPTION so she the devil could never ever even tempt her. Where does the Bible say that?

Think about it. 2 people who the devil could never touch. God and the Blessed Mother.Why because NO SIN what so ever. **Where does the Bible say that? **

 

[PRmerger]

PR, Listen to what I am saying. Mary was sinless BECAUSE she was saved from Original Sin from God at the second of her conception, we agree on that. But why did she need to be saved from OS at her conception by God?

Simple PR BECAUSE she was not born of that Perfect SINLESS VESSEL like Jesus was. Do you see what I am saying?

Mary needed JESUS to save her, It is only because the merits of Jesus that she was perserved without sin. It never touched her because at the second of her conception she was saved. Being that GOD saved her, she COULD BE the perfect vessel to be the New Ark made pure.

I agree with everything you said above.

If God would have saved Anna at her conception then Mary would not have inherited Original Sin either. Do you see what I am saying. Then if she did not have OS when would not have needed a Savior either.

Yes, she needed a Savior because she was born into a sinful vessel. I see what you’re saying.

Now, when I say God did NOT NEED MARY TO BE SINLESS, do you see what I am saying? He could have entered her, as he entered a sinful earth, completely sanctified.

He made her sinless because it was FITTING. Jesus did not NEED Mary to be sinless so that HE could be sinless. That’s, quite frankly, preposterous.

 

[PRmerger]

This was the argument that made me dig into this. I found the best thing by accident when I was listening to Father Corapi. He said something along the lines of “God could, He should, so He did” make her sinless. It was not a question of necessity since Christ obviously lived, moved, touched, interacted in a sinful world and with sinners, but it was fitting.

I suppose the way to think about it is if you were God, would you require a sinless mother? Or would you WANT your mother to never be a slave to sin, since everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin? Would you protect your mother, who you are called to love, respect, and obey above all except the Lord from the filth of sin?

It was not necessary, but since God could do this, and He should do this, He did make her sinless.

'zactly!!

At least thats my opinion of it and I know it has been stated before… I just like to take $.02 out of my pocket and pass them around.

LOVE that you used the correct mathematical symbol for 2 cents.

Pet peeve: use of this:** .02 cents** to mean 2 cents. Grrrr!! Learn your decimal points, people!

 

[rinnie]

But I do have a quick question for you.

You claim that your Uncle prayed for Mary to offer healing. Do you deny that The Apostles had the Power from God to heal? So when Peter healed people that was not the word of God,

Now here is my question, why would you deny the Blessed Mother the power to heal in the name of God if you would accept Peters power to heal in the name of God. If of course you do accept this scripture?

Do I believe that the Blessed Mother can heal in the Name of God??? Heck yeah I do. I believe that all the Angels and Saints, and Pope and Bishops and anyone who is righeous and one in Christ can heal in his name.

But I do not believe that we know if It is Gods will or not. But I believe that myself a sinner if I pray for someone sick and ask God to heal them, if its his will, he will do it. And yes I believe my prayers can work.

 

[Born_Warrior]

I agree with everything you said above.

Yes, she needed a Savior because she was born into a sinful vessel. I see what you’re saying.

Now, when I say God did NOT NEED MARY TO BE SINLESS, do you see what I am saying? He could have entered her, as he entered a sinful earth, completely sanctified.

He made her sinless because it was FITTING. Jesus did not NEED Mary to be sinless so that HE could be sinless. That’s, quite frankly, preposterous.

How do you know Mary was sinless? Where is that written? Does that not conflict with the Bible where it states that only Jesus was sinless?

 

[Cat_Herder]

The Bible states that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. The Bible also states that Jesus had brothers and sisters. I know people say they could have been step-siblings or even cousins, but those interpretations are done by man. They are not Biblical.

Actually the Bible says they are cousins.

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 27:56[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Jn 19:25[/BIBLEDRB]

I was raised and baptized Greek Orthodox. I always questioned why we prayed to Mary. When my father was dying my uncle, who was a deacon, said a prayer asking Mary to heal my father. *I questioned him later where it was in the Bible that we where suppose to pray to Mary. Of course, no where in the Bible does it say that.

[BIBLEDRB]Mk 12:25[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 5:8[/BIBLEDRB]

I don’t care if someone reveres Mary or not. Whatever your thoughts are on Mary have nothing to do at all to do with Salvation. I think the biggest disagreements between Catholics and most non-Catholics about Mary is that all the reverence given to Mary is not by anything that is said in the Bible but what was written by man after she died. If she was a Perpetual Virgin, why was it not mentioned in the Bible? If she was sinless like Jesus, why is it not in the Bible?*Why does the Bible not tell us that we can pray to Mary too?

Because you haven’t bothered to look.

Even though I think that Maryshould not be prayed to, she is still the mother of Jesus. She was pregnant at a time when unmarried pregnant women where shunned or even killed. People didn’t believe she was a virgin and thus was label a lair and far worse. She had the responsibility of raising the son of God (no small feat)! She then had to see him tortured, mutilated and be executed. She deserves respect and admiration for all of that. How many people are that strong that you know?

You seemed to have strained to avoid calling Her the Mother of GOD. So is She or isn’t She?

 

[JustaServant]

How do you know Mary was sinless? Where is that written? Does that not **conflict **with the Bible **where it states **that only Jesus was sinless?

Where does it state ONLY Jesus was sinless in the Bible?

 

[Cat_Herder]

How do you know Mary was sinless? Where is that written? Does that not conflict with the Bible where it states that only Jesus was sinless?

It does not say that only Jesus was sinless. It says:

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 3:11-23[/BIBLEDRB]

If all means all, that includes Jesus. You will turn the page to get an exception for Him but not for His Mother even though the Bible says they were both at complete enmity with satan.

If all means all, then no one seeks the Lord, including you.

 

[rinnie]

I dont disagree with any of this, with one slight modification. The Blessed Mother was sinless FROM the moment of her conception, not made sinless AT the moment of her conception. I think that is what you are getting at anyway, just a bit of a semantic difference.

My question was more along the lines of “Do you feel that it was NECESSARY for her to be immaculately conceived or was it fitting (i.e. proper)?”

Again, just trying to figure out your stance so I dont interject my idea of what your opinion is into what you actually say.

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Okay, now this is what I feel now okay. I do feel it was necessary for her to be immaculately conceived so that she would be sinless to be the perfect Mother of Christ.

God would expect nothing less of his Mother. Because if she was not sinless, then people could say that Jesus was not sinless because of Original Sin, Then how could we argue that really? I mean I know we could say God is God. And God is perfect, don’t get me wrong. BUt GOD is who made it possible for us to see that she was saved at her conception.

That is why we get accused of putting her right UP THERE with God. Sure we Do. Where she belongs. Now we never said she was GOD, or equal to God, but she would be the best second place. She was the only sinless person besides God.

But we also know she LIke us still needs God and would also be nothing without God. Only God needs noone.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Okay, now this is what I feel now okay. I do feel it was necessary for her to be immaculately conceived so that she would be sinless to be the perfect Mother of Christ.

God would expect nothing less of his Mother. Because if she was not sinless, then people could say that Jesus was not sinless because of Original Sin, Then how could we argue that really? I mean I know we could say God is God. And God is perfect, don’t get me wrong. BUt GOD is who made it possible for us to see that she was saved at her conception.

That is why we get accused of putting her right UP THERE with God. Sure we Do. Where she belongs. Now we never said she was GOD, or equal to God, but she would be the best second place. She was the only sinless person besides God.

But we also know she LIke us still needs God and would also be nothing without God. Only God needs noone.

Weeeellllll, I guess I can respond like this:

I disagree with the “necessary” portion, I feel that it was fitting but not necessary. I, however, dont think that either of our divergent opinions really make a lick of difference in this topic since we both hold to the one faith of Christ and accept that our Blessed Mother was perpetually sinless, perpetual virgin, and was assumed into heaven to sit beside our Lord as the Queen Mother prefigured by the queen mothers of the old testament.

So, my disagreement comes down to semantics and is really of no consequence in the grand scheme of things.

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