Why the Lack of Support & Exodus from the Church

[RandomAlias]

@Erikaspirit16, I just finished reading Strangers in a Strange Land: Living the Catholic Faith in a Post-Christian World, by Charles J. Chaput (Archbishop of Philadelphia). It has a lot to say about how to live the Catholic faith in the US today. I recommend it.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

You may want to read this a few times…

Your quotation is from a Ray Sullivan, a retired engineer from Texas. Yes. That’s exactly where I go for my theological eduction.

Well, I’ve repeated myself multiple times, so I’m out. Argue among yourselves, or agree if you like. Send me a note when you succeed in making abortion illegal in the US.

 

[Elf01]

There is NO such consensus that other drugs–cocaine, heroin, etc.–should be legal. In fact, there is a consensus the other way–that they should be illegal. Only 8-18% think various other drugs should be legal; so 82-92% think they should be illegal. So they are. The laws reflect the consensus opinion, as they should.

If there was would you support legalizing them?

What about murder ? rape? slavery? pedophilia?

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

You may want to read this a few times…

Your quotation is from a Ray Sullivan, a retired engineer from Texas. Yes. That’s exactly where I go for my theological eduction.

And your post is a great example of the genetic fallacy couched in the language of theological snobbery.

Besides the fact that you chose to ignore all of the actual points he made, on the pretext that he lacks authority. That isn’t surprising, however, since you even ignored the authority of Jesus Christ, the Apostles and the Magisterium in an earlier post.

Legion it is, then.

Not sure that Ray Sullivan is any less a source for theological education than, say, Erikaspirit16. At least he is forthcoming about his background credentials.

 

[Jimbo]

“They are single-issue voters, despite the USCCB instructions that you shouldn’t be. If you criticize their position, you are supporting abortion and intrinsic evil. End of argument.”

I’ll field this only because I have been accused of being a single issue voter. I currently am a person without a party, and mainly because neither party seems to care much about social justice beyond the narrow confines of their voter base. In my opinion there is no ‘Left’ or ‘Right’ Catholic. There is just Catholicism and it should challenge ardent adherents of both parties.

You put up an example candidate of a person who supports many wonderful things, but is pro choice. That’s nice. But the pro-choice part of that candidate, the active decision to dehumanize and allow the death of an entire class of people, disqualifies that candidate.

It would be the same if you had a candidate as you described who was also 100% pro segregation. Or who thought women should be chattel. Sure, the candidate might have alot of good to them (support of the poor, support of peace, etc.) but they have one glaring flaw which makes them unelectable. I doubt anyone beyond a lunatic fringe would argue for that candidate if at their campaign rally that candidate had ‘White’ and ‘Colored’ drinking fountains.

Yet, I’m supposed to ignore ‘pro-choice’ because of the other things a candidate might support that I agree with.

That’s not single issue voting. It’s prudent voting. I don’t trigger my vote on a single issue (I won’t vote for a pro-life person if they are reprehensible elsewhere). But a single issue, if serious enough, can take my vote away.

 

[GrandPaRay]

Harry, the Nuns taught me to be truthful and honest and I always question everything. I have some ideas as to why young people are leaving the church in such numbers and I thought catholic answers would be the place to start. I try not to discuss facts that turn out to be verified. Grand Pa Ray

 

[GrandPaRay]

Hi NoelFitz this is GrandPaRay about third para. I guess I fall into the group of lapsed or ex in my thinking. I have no ill feelings about being educated by the nun’s and had a great experience in my life involved with the church, but i have grown up and left childish thinking to children. Theology explains nothing. The catholic people are great, its the clergy who try to make claims they can not explain and say you have go have faith in their mystery. Young are educated and do not accept BS any more. Catholic means universal. We should be getting ready for the future that the young people can see. Magic has no place in a catholic’s life.

 

[davidv]

Theology explains nothing. The catholic people are great, its the clergy who try to make claims they can not explain and say you have go have faith in their mystery. Young are educated and do not accept BS any more. Catholic means universal. We should be getting ready for the future that the young people can see. Magic has no place in a catholic’s life.

There is no BS in Catholic teaching. Those who think so have accepted the BS of the godless secular ideologies. The real future, heaven, has not been seen. This is what all need to be getting ready for. The only magic in Catholics’ lives is the ones they put there from outside the Church.

 

[Nigel7]

Bishops who protect actively homosexual clergy. Bishops who protect pedophile clergy. Bishops who are themselves practicing homosexuals.
Scandal and grave sin on the part of Church leaders. So-called leaders who fail to protect the innocent, and who in far too many cases are monsters themselves.
This is all just for starters.
May have a little something to do with it?

Mind you that rather than running away and abandoning Christ’s Church, we should instead raise our voices to drain the Catholic swamp. Zero tollerance for monsters.
I wish our current Pope felt so.

Don’t run away. Fight.

 

[GrandPaRay]

Good Morning Noel Fitz, GrandPa Ray back at it. There is a need for priests, deacons and nuns but they need to catch up to the youth or loose them. Young people will not accept the garbage any more. Their education about realty does not mesh with the magic they are hearing, so they will leave the church. It’s education and truthfulness that young people respect. I feel right at home with young people who have revolted against magical reasons for the unknown. It is perfectly all right to say ‘I don’t know’ The desire for new knowledge is coming at a very fast pace for most older folks and they do not like change. This can be managed if organizations like “maybe” catholic answers. I would like to be part of the coming wave of people who are educated and knowledgable.

 

[GrandPaRay]

Davidv, you answered your own question or statement. Heaven has never been seen because it does not exist. No one who ever lived has ever seen heaven and come back to let us know.

 

[GrandPaRay]

Noelfitz, GrandPa Ray back to you, You ended with a statement that is over 2000 years old. There have been no changes or updates ever. A child in fifth grade is smarter and knows more about our world than anyone who lived back then. That should be a clue that explains why the catholic church is in the fix it is.

 

[NoelFitz]

Thanks for all the replies. There are almost 200 posts, but many are off-topic, focusing on abortion, and perhaps underling the view that the US Catholic Church is essentially an anti-abortion lobby group.

I am trying to reply systematically, but the posts of GPR are particularly helpful, as he tells it as it is for a non-practicing Catholic. I hope he feels welcome here and appreciated.

I also appreciate in a special way Erikaspirit16, as his/her posts reflect by beliefs often. She/He is a proxy-combatant for me, perhaps.

I am encouraged by the fact that a priest in our parish shares my view; I do not know if I have come to his way of thinking or I attend his masses as his views agree (mostly) with mine.

RandomAlias claims Christianity is about the worth of humans, I would have thought it was about God’s love.
I note HS, E16 and RA wander off-topic, while some posts are fully off-topic. Is it necessary to repeat so frequently that HS an E16 disagree?

Summary to #158 (may not ne accurate, if so - sorry)

Elf01 – Catholic politicians not supported because of abortion

Mkoopman – off-topic

Tis_Bearself – practicing Catholics do not support Catholic politicians because of abortion

Erikaspirit16 - People leave the Church because it behaves as an anti-abortion lobby group without other values. Many posts are off-topic repeating the view he/she disagrees with HarryStotle

HarryStotle – Jesus was a fanatic. The early Church had as its one value the worth of humans, not God. Again many topics are off-topic repeating disagreement with E16.

Axsenex – off-topic

RandomAlias- First century Christians focused on love, but on humans not God.

Bataar – off-topic

 

[NoelFitz]

Noelfitz, GrandPa Ray back to you, You ended with a statement that is over 2000 years old. There have been no changes or updates ever. A child in fifth grade is smarter and knows more about our world than anyone who lived back then. That should be a clue that explains why the catholic church is in the fix it is.

GPR,
I am trying to reply systematically to posts, and have not reached yours yet.

Some old ideas are still valid. The ideas Egyptians had when building the pyramids are still valid. Similarly Aristotle and Plato had some good ideas. Democracy is not anything new. Is the US constitution out of date?

I also am a grand-pa and my five year old grand-son seems better at operating electronic equipment that I am. ‘Just press the button’.

I hope to reflect on your posts and reply more later.

I feel in the Church scholarship has moved from clergy to lay and from seminaries to universities. But most great universities were religion based initially. Queen Victoria referred to Oxford University as a damp and monkish place. John Harvard was a Christian minister and the first first president of Harvard was Reverend Henry Dunster.

 

[mkoopman]

Real easy one, amazed you never heard it. Probably you covered your ears.
Because it is the faith founded by Jesus.
You find something terribly difficult in that?

 

[Benadam]

There is a need for priests, deacons and nuns but they need to catch up to the youth or loose them. Young people will not accept the garbage any more. Their education about realty does not mesh with the magic they are hearing,

Hiya GrandPaRay! This is confusing. You recognize the need for Priests. The primary purpose of which is to minister the Sacraments. But it seems like you are saying that the Sacraments are a product of magic? Are you using the word magic to mean ‘unreal’?

 

[GrandPaRay]

Benadam, You are close but where did the sacraments come from? These good people are providing service and care for others and can continue to do this without magic. It is the catholic laity that must be recognized for knowing what they do not know. Clergy needs to admit this also.

 

[mkoopman]

I will rebuke others for a seemingly alarmist reply like I now respond to you, a grandfather with the responsibility to raise children in the faith.
If you do not reform your false “preaching” on secular lies, you are going to hell.
The faith is not sola scriptura, that’s a false understanding about the bible. The bible that was given to us by the church. Interpretation of the bible is understood through church teaching. You raise these objections as smoke to cover your vehement hatred of our mother, the church, that your rampage now presents more clearly.
The Sacraments are a gift, a gift of value greater than any Magi can present. You deny sacred tradition not as one with doubt, nor in invincible ignorance though ignorance it may be and in that you would fare better. You identify spiteful hatred for the church. The hedonist values of a selfish America is your clear choice. This may not lead you to hell if you were to repent of it in your heart but the millstone you tie around your neck in leading children from the faith is a greater danger.

I believe you are directly responsible for releasing tiger teams in Egypt, also. Who will you turn to for confessing to this atrocity, that has no way to be rectified with the love of Jesus? The red glare of your rockets is horrific. Confess to a priest and make yourself right with God. There is always hope and He loves you. Go to His Body and find what you have lost. Leave your materialism for truth.

 

[Benadam]

Benadam, You are close but where did the sacraments come from?

Fom God.

These good people are providing service and care for others and can continue to do this without magic.

That’s just it. They do it without magic anyway. Magic means many things to many people. As it is used by you it means whatever meaning you are giving it. That is why i’m asking. Agreement on the use of terms so what you mean is understood. As it relates to religion, it is a spiritual resource that isn’t from God. That is what the term means to me in the context you are using it. What would service and care for others by Catholic clergy look like without the magic you claim it uses?

It is the catholic laity that must be recognized for knowing what they do not know. Clergy needs to admit this also.

Not sure what you mean here.
Not sure what kind of knowing or knowledge is exclusive to catholic laity.

 

[NoelFitz]

Fitz, How do you know we catholic’s have the “one true faith”? No one has ever given me a answer to that question.

I am going through all the posts and am now down to #173.
But few recently add much of relevance, with the exception of vsedriver who claims people leave the Church due to lack of knowledge of Catholicism.

I agree with much of what you hold.

I am only a young lad relative to you. I am 77 and you can see my photo.

I appreciate your posts, as you are one who may have wandered off.

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[Are philosophy (BS ??), theology, mathematics, computer science and social science really sciences?

Many modern theologians are lay folk. In fact many theologians are not Catholic or Christian.
I am reminded of the Puritan Oliver Cromwell, not a well-loved figure in Ireland.

‘I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistake.’

I note from my good friend Prof Wikipedia, who is infallible:

The Four Marks of the Church is a term describing four distinctive adjectives — “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic”[1] — of traditional Christian ecclesiologyas expressed in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed completed at the First Council of Constantinople in AD 381: “[I believe] in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.” In Protestant theology these are sometimes called the attributes of the Church.[2] This creed is today recited in the liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church (both Latin and Eastern Rites), the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Church of the East, the Anglican Communion, and in the worship services of many classical Protestant denominations.

Many of my Protestant friends belong to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

Some time ago I was a lecture by an Anglican Bishop, who is one of the most eminent British theologians (all theologians are eminent), and congratulated him on the wonderful definition he had of a member of the Church, ‘one who believes in Christ’. As we say in Ireland he is looking at me yet.

How do I know the Catholic Church is the one true Church? The usual answer is because God said it.

From the human side one looks at nature, and see its order, hence there is a God and one believes in him. He says his Church is the one, true one. One accepts this. It is not a very convincing approach, so just believe in God and his Church.

Do you believe in dark matter, anti-matter, quantum theory, relativity, the uncertainty principle, aliens, fake news, Donald Trump? There are lots of things we take on faith. We cannot prove first principles. Am I here? Am I a rational being? Do I exist? Am I gaga?

Seriously I appreciate your views, and hope you will return to the Church, if you have ever left. I think many leave the Church because they get nothing positive from it. Maybe it is the fault of believers.]

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Please say a prayer for me, and I will pray for you and all here. It might help.
God bless.