Why the Lack of Support & Exodus from the Church

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JanSobieskiIII
GrandPaRay

You raise very interesting questions and I think they merit a thread of their own.

The accusation has been made that under St J P II bishops were chosen for their loyalty rather than their ability. Not all organizations can claim to be ruled by a stable genius.

Should bishops be chosen for their sanctity or administrative ability, for their pastoral or intellectual skills, for their ability to influence the elites or the ordinary people?

In the Syllabus of Errors, it appears democracy was rejected by the Church. Should we favo()ur it, after all it is an ancient idea, where under Pericles in Athens about 2500 years ago government by the people was advocated? Modern is not always best.

Our civilization is based on the ancient ideas of Greece and Rome. Aristotle and Plato have contributed to our civilization, as have St Paul and St Jerome, along with other holy people.

Jesus Christ also had good ideas which are still valid.
 
Jordan, the terms we use to describe is important. A mystery means we do no know something. when i don’t know i investigate. read every thing you can get your hands on. knowing what we don’t know is the only way to find truth.
 
And some mysteries can’t be answered. God hasn’t made us omnipotent. Some things we have to take on faith.
 
Benadam, Why i keep mentioning magic. I like being fooled by magic, which is false. It points out to to me that what i see or hear might not be real, and i need to seek the truth where ever it leads.
 
Noelfitz, If you put a full head of white hair wig on we would look alike. Bishops should not be chosen they should be elected by the people who are well educated based on how in touch they are about reality. authoritarian governing is subject to human weakness, but democracy is the best so far. Understanding probability as it relates to us flawed people would be a great help. Teaching people to be truthful and honest is what the formal church should focus on, and not be afraid of the unknown.
 
Jordon, You are right about mysteries. period. My mother and father made me. faith is accepting what someone has told us and not checking to see if there are facts to back it up. education education education.
 
You say you are an “Irish Catholic”… are you American or Catholic? Just so we can better understand where you are coming from
 
NoelFitz said:
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Nigel7:
Zero tollerance for monsters.
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You make a valid point, claiming (I believe) that people leave the Church due to the pedophile scandals.
I do not agree, the rot started prior to the pedophile concerns.
‘Zero tolerance (sic.) for monsters’ sounds great. Does this mean lynch mobs killing accused pedophiles?
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The problem is that the Catholic Church is in direct defiance (and always has been) to celebrity culture.

For centuries, actors and actresses were considered immoral and acting was considered a profession for immoral people.

Today, actors & actresses are reverered & have a TON of power and great influence over society. Not just here in the United States, but world wide.

In many ways, Hollywood actors have replaced key religious figures as the conscience of society (esp among secularists).

Actors and actresses were promoting same-sex marriage for decades. Actors & actresses have been publicly getting divorced & remarried for over a century.

The scandal they have brought to this world is huge.

As my parish pastor says, “we have moved from being a Christian Culture to a Celebrity Culture.”

This is where the rot comes from and it’s supported and defended by our modern sense of individual liberty, which the Popes feared when America was founded.
 
phil19034 said:
Today, actors & actresses are reverered & have a TON of power and great influence over society. Not just here in the United States, but world wide.

In many ways, Hollywood actors have replaced key religious figures as the conscience of society (esp among secularists).
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So true this is. The popular media defines culture and is in a real way the new ecclesia that congregates in movie theaters.
 
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Secular media sends a powerful message to the young that fulfillment is found in finite things. Why the Church is not attractive to them.
 
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Hello.

This is just my opinion.

I think the answer is in my own failures as a Catholic, other Catholics who do the bare minimum in practicing their faith, priests and some church leaders who do not practice the faith and in some cases, actually mislead the flock.

When I don’t put following the will of God first in my life, when I don’t do spiritual reading or follow the precepts of the church, when I put certain people and things (like money) before God, when I am unkind and only thinking of my own comfort 1st and unwilling to take up my cross, when I don’t speak up and lovingly correct a brother or sister who is going down a dangerous path, when I don’t practice what is preached, especially from the Magisterium, that is when there is a lack of support & exodus from the Church.

I think also, a huge reason for this exodus is the attachment to sin many of us don’t want to give up, then all the rationalizations we use to justify our less than ideal behavior.

Lack of catechesis is also a reason. With all of us Catholics who really don’t know our faith, how do we expect the next generations to behave?

Very grateful that the head of the Church is divine or we’d be doomed for sure.
 
phil19034 said:
You say you are an “Irish Catholic”… are you American or Catholic? Just so we can better understand where you are coming from
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I am coming from Dublin, Ireland.
I definitely am not American, but almost 50 years ago I lived in the US for some time.
 
phil19034 said:
Today, actors & actresses are reverered & have a TON of power and great influence over society. Not just here in the United States, but world wide.

In many ways, Hollywood actors have replaced key religious figures as the conscience of society (esp among secularists).
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Ronald Reagan was not the worst choice as President of the US.
 
NoelFitz said:
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phil19034:
Today, actors & actresses are reverered & have a TON of power and great influence over society. Not just here in the United States, but world wide.

In many ways, Hollywood actors have replaced key religious figures as the conscience of society (esp among secularists).
Click to expand...
Ronald Reagan was not the worst choice as President of the US.
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Ronald Reagan wasn’t an actor when he was elected President. He had already been in politics for many years, and had served two terms as Governor of California.

And while Reagan used to be a Democrat, he had officially become Republican by 1962 (and was considering it before)
 
NoelFitz said:
I am coming from Dublin, Ireland.

I definitely am not American, but almost 50 years ago I lived in the US for some time.
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OK, well this explains a lot.

50 years ago, Catholics used to be more of a homogeneous culture group in the United States. Today, we are not.

50 years ago, there was a “Catholic Vote” but today, there surely is not one. Also 50 years ago, it was common for American Catholics to always support the Catholic politician, regardless of party. But after the legalization of Abortion, and the Democratic Party’s official support of abortion, that all changed.

We no longer support candidates simply because they are Catholic. We only support candidates who’s positions most line up with the Catholic Church.

For example: the Democratic Party has several issues in their official party platform that are 100% against Catholic dogma / social teaching:
  • pro abortion
  • pro same-sex marriage
  • pro government funding of Planned Parenthood
Plus, they have many other positions that are not part of their platform:
  • pro euthanasia
  • pro “freedom of worship” instead of “freedom of religion”
  • pro forcing Catholic groups (including nuns) to pay for birth control and abortions
  • pro embryonic stem cell research
  • pro forcing abortion onto other nations
  • etc.
The Republican Party has NOTHING in their official party platform that goes against Catholic Dogma / Social Teaching. While there are policies Republicans support that challenge Catholic Social Teaching, the teachings are in areas where the Church allows for prudential judgement. Meaning, no Republican disagrees with these issues, simply disagrees on who should pay for it and how it should be implemented.
  • For example, health care: Republicans don’t believe people shouldn’t have access to affordable health care, they simply don’t agree that the federal govt should pay for it. Republicans believe that it should be paid for by either the private sector, or if it must be the public sector, then it should be handled by the state governments - not the federal govt.
  • Death Penalty: The Catholic Church teaches that the death penalty should be rare in today’s society (if not totally non-existent). However, the Catholic Church does also teach that a state has the right to use the death penalty if, in the state’s prudential judgement, the death penalty is required for the safety of society.
  • immigration: The Catholic Church teaches that we should welcome immigrates and refugees. It’s not that Republicans want zero immigration, but they want to stop the illegal immigration that is coming into the United States and reform legal immigration so we know who’s moving to the United States. Again, the Church doesn’t teach that we must have open borders, and acknowledged that policies around immigration are subject to prudential judgement.
To contrast with the Democrats:
  • abortion is not an area of prudential judgement
  • same sex marriage is not an area of prudential judgement
  • euthanasia is not an area of prudential judgement
  • embryonic stem cell research is not an area of prudential judgement
  • etc.
I pray this makes sense.
 
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NoelFitz said:
I am coming from Dublin, Ireland.

I definitely am not American, but almost 50 years ago I lived in the US for some time.
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Additionally, unlike parts of Europe, we also no longer have political/cultural issues that are Catholic vs Protestant based. We simply have theological differences with Protestants, but no longer major cultural/political issues. Often, politically, faithful Protestants are allies with faithful Catholics.
 
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phil19034 said:
50 years ago, there was a “Catholic Vote” but today, there surely is not one. Also 50 years ago, it was common for American Catholics to always support the Catholic politician, regardless of party. But after the legalization of Abortion, and the Democratic Party’s official support of abortion, that all changed.
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Phil19034
Thank you so much for your detailed reply to me. I appreciate it that you took so much time to clarify the present position.

I note (from Pew) that in the 2016 election for US president 26% of Hispanic Catholics and 60% of White Catholics voted for Trump, while 67% of Hispanic Catholics and 37% of White Catholics voted for Clinton. It is not fully accurate to say Catholics did not vote for the Democratic candidate.

It also seems to me that CAF represents the conservative Catholic view, while the progressive view comes from the National Catholic Reporter.

Both of these are lay organizations. Neither is officially Catholic.

I would see myself, and hope I am, as a thinking, loyal Catholic, who hopes to remain faithful to the Church and not end up in hell. I find in CAF a group of fellow Catholics who are interested and committed. They help build me up in the Faith.

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God bless.
 
NoelFitz said:
Phil19034

Thank you so much for your detailed reply to me. I appreciate it that you took so much time to clarify the present position.
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  1. I never said Catholics didn’t vote for Clinton. Trump won the majority of Catholic votes in the US, but he barely received over 50% (I forget the exact number). But Catholics did win him the swing states big time, as many Catholics in the swing states who voted for Obama switched and voted for Clinton.
1a) What I said was that the official, documented Democratic Party Platform, which was approved at the last Democratic Party Convention in Philadelphia directly goes against Catholic Dogma and Catholic Social Teaching.
  1. Hispanics tend to vote Democrat for many reasons, which I’m not going to go into. However, all of the very devout Hispanics I know voted for Trump.
  2. Catholic Answers doesn’t represent a “conservative” Catholic view, it represents an orthodox one. Yes, many people on the forums are conservative, but there are many who are not.
  3. Catholic Answers actually IS a recognized Catholic organization. While lay run, Catholic Answers does have an assigned priest as chaplain and is listed in the official Catholic Directory of the Diocese of San Diego. In other words, Catholic Answers has Church permission to call themselves Catholic. Many articles on the Catholic Answers website contains imprimaturs from bishops – for example: What the Early Church Believed: Women and the Priesthood | Catholic Answers (see the very bottom)
  4. The National “Catholic” Reporter on the other hand does NOT have Church or local diocese approval to use the name Catholic in their name. In the past, the local bishops have tried to force them to stop using the name Catholic, but they have refused to obey their local bishops. It was denounced by their local bishop back in 1968! National Catholic Reporter | October 16, 1968 | -need copy. They have been again defocked by their local Bishop Finn and by the bishop before that.
    Bishop Finn: National Catholic Reporter should not call itself Catholic | News | LifeSite
    http://catholickey.org/2013/01/25/the-bishops-role-in-fostering-the-mission-of-the-catholic-media/
I pray this is helpful.

God Bless
 
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