Why the Lack of Support & Exodus from the Church

[Lara]

Why do so many Catholics forsake the one true faith?

It would help if you believed in it enough to promote what it stands for. This business of not imposing beliefs on others is nonsense. Each group tries to get their agenda pushed through. As Catholics, we should be trying to get our agenda pushed through. The winner is the one with the majority of votes.

If you’re not trying to persuade others of your beliefs, you’re not evangelizing like you’re supposed to. Not only that, you’re losing any foothold, because the other side IS trying to impose their beliefs on you and everybody else.

The devil has you good and befuddled. Think of devil as a French word: d’evil. Of evil. If you aren’t opposing evil, you’re aiding it. It’s impossible to be “neutral”.

Muslims, for example, have the good sense to believe in their religion. I know there are different branches of Islam, but within a branch you will find unity. Catholics are so divided that we cannot possibly act as one unit in society. Therein lies the challenge. I’ve never seen as wide a spectrum of Catholic belief as on this forum. For me, it’s a real eye-opener.

 

[NoelFitz]

Benadam,
I like your posts. They represent solid Catholic teaching. But can the Bishop discuss items other than abortion. How about love, peace and justice?

God loves us and all will be well.

Rejoice in the Lord always. I shall say it again: rejoice!c (Phil. 4:4 NAB)

 

[NoelFitz]

Benadam and Erikaspirit16,
I am grateful to both of you, and I see where both of you are coming from. You have given time and thought to this thread. It shows CAF at its best, where important issues can be discussed robustly, but with respect. It show Catholicism as a religion where people have heads as well as hearts.

 

[NoelFitz]

it’s kinda funny how stupid you must think I am.

Did I write about this thread being respectful? I still think it is essentially respectful and courteous, as well as robust and energetic.

 

[ChunkMonk]

Erikaspirit’s point was that some of Jesus’ ideas were similar to some of the ideas espoused by Marx and Engels. This is a fact, not spin.

You cannot provide a single quote where Jesus espouses an idea that is similar to Marx and Engels.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You cannot provide a single quote where Jesus espouses an idea that is similar to Marx and Engels.

When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven… - Luke 18:22

“the theory of Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.”
― Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto

There’s also a bunch of stuff in Acts of the Apostles where wealth is basically redistributed.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

It would help if you believed in it enough to promote what it stands for. This business of not imposing beliefs on others is nonsense. Each group tries to get their agenda pushed through. As Catholics, we should be trying to get our agenda pushed through. The winner is the one with the majority of votes.

Think about this. If this were written by a Muslim, how would you feel? A Mormon? A Scientologist?

 

[guanophore]

I have known lots of Catholics who attend Church on Sunday who have more or less left the Catholic Faith.

This is a sad fact.

As for Catholics becoming ex-Catholics or lapsed Catholics, my own opinion is that they have almost no knowledge of what the Catholic church actually teaches.

Our parishes are full of baptized yet unevangelized and noncatechized persons.

the negative views I consider are the focus on sin not love.

These are not mutually exclusive. It is not loving to ignore sinful behavaior that is damaging to the soul of the one we are to love. It is like watching them walk off a cliff without saying anything.

A practicing Catholic is one who attends Mass.

While this is one aspect of the faith we are to practice, it hardly indicates that a person is embracing the faith. Some Catholics even use going to Mass as an occassion for sacrilege, participating in the Eucharist in an unconfessed state.

The greatest issue is love not abortion. Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life.

I suppose that depends upon whether you are the life that is ended by such violence. The aborted human being has no way, truth, or life.

 

[HarryStotle]

mkoopman:

Did you cite Marx and Engels? Then you claim these two as upholding catholic social values? Your spin is very confused.

Well, no. What I said was “Jesus himself had a host of sayings that would make Marx and Engels proud…” which is true. This is not to say that the teachings of Jesus, Marx, and Engels coincide in all details. But certainly they share similar viewpoints in some areas.

Yeah, sure. And Satan himself shared some of those same values, such as giving bread to the hungry and trusting in God. I suppose Jesus would also make Satan proud because they shared similar viewpoints in those areas?

The tempter came to Him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

Then the devil took Him to the holy city and had Him stand on the highest point of the temple. ”If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

‘He will commend His angels concerning you
> and they shall lift you up in their hands,
So that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”

…but they were written up as two of the “temptations” of Jesus. I wonder why?

Perhaps the accidental and superficial alignment of “values” in a few areas isn’t sufficient to make your case.

 

[HarryStotle]

But what I am in favor of is recognizing that I should not impose my version of morality on everyone else.

Except that “imposing on everyone as an obligation” is precisely what the meaning of ‘morality’ is – I.e., that which is obligatory for all moral agents.

I wouldn’t suppose that permitting the willful killing of an innocent human being is ever a permissible act, even if your “morality” has become so lax that you leave it up to every individual to make his or her own decision about what is or is not “moral” for them.

To presume that God shares that view of morality with you might be a grave error on your part, and to defend that error with single-minded absorption – as you also do – may be the result of knowing deep down that facing that error head-on will mean dealing with the possibility that a whole lot of your other connected assumptions may likewise be ill-conceived.

 

[HarryStotle]

The greatest issue is love not abortion.

It isn’t at all clear that abortion can ever be a truly loving act.

Oh, sure it can masquerade as such and might be promoted as such by those with a particular skew to their morality, but I wouldn’t just presume that God will be taken in by all the wordplay regarding “rights,” to say nothing of the excuse-making and finger-pointing with regard to how others – and never the agent him or herself – are more responsible for their moral dilemma.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

And Satan himself shared some of those same values, such as giving bread to the hungry and trusting in God.

Is Satan doing this stuff? Like, after his fall?

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

And Satan himself shared some of those same values, such as giving bread to the hungry and trusting in God.

Is Satan doing this stuff? Like, after his fall?

How does Satan tempt if not by offering lesser goods when greater ones are at stake?

When Jesus said to Peter, “Get behind me Satan!” wasn’t it because Peter was thinking of a “good” that he supposed, wrongly, to be the proper good at that moment? It isn’t like Peter was suggesting an evil thing to Jesus, merely a “human” thing. Consider the whole of Jesus’ rebuke…

But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.” (Matt 16:23)

 

[ktmeyer]

The society that is the nucleus and therefore the foundation and source of the greater society is what is being changed, That is where I live.So it is getting shoved down my throat because I call both the nucleus and the greater, my home. These laws fundamentally change the society I serve and provides for me a mode of survival and means to pursue happiness:wink:

oh…so you need everyone else’s marriage to comply with Catholic faith? So you also want to outlaw remarriage after divorce, I assume? And make sure no one is legally able to use birth control, since that also effects society, and is against church teaching. Or has any kind of sexual experience while married that doesn’t lead to full intercourse, also not allowed and vital to marriage according to the Catholic Church.

Or is the only time you want the Church’s view of marriage enforced legally to be when it has to do with homosexuality?

 

[Lara]

Think about it. That is exactly what the future will hold if you don’t stand by your beliefs in public. Furthermore, Christians and Catholics will hold a smaller percentage of the electorate in every country.

For starters, Muslims will hold a bigger and bigger percentage of the voter base because they have more children than all the atheist, and even Catholic families. Same with Mormons. Scientologists are unlikely to ever hold a majority. They’re too expensive to join.

Right now you’re used to a bunch of Leftist elites holding reign of schools, government institutions and the media. And you think it is tolerable enough to keep your nose out of things, so to speak. But this will not always be the case. There may come an issue that you can’t bear to see won by that side. Or a stronger power, such as Muslims for instance, will take over by force.

 

[ChunkMonk]

Giving everything I possess to the poor would not be an abolition of private property, just a reorganization. The property, privately owned by me, would be transferred to the poor, and would then be privately owned by them.

Redistribution of wealth is neither communist nor capitalist. It is a simple fact of life that wealth will be redistributed. Anyway, you said Jesus said some things that were very similar to Marx and Engels, not:

‘some Apostles in small communities did some things for a while that could be construed as being similar to what Marx suggest as a universal policy’

The quotes you provided were entirely incongruous and almost exclusive. I remain unconvinced that Jesus was a material Communist.

 

[ChunkMonk]

So you also want to outlaw remarriage after divorce, I assume? And make sure no one is legally able to use birth control

Obviously. Any good Catholic should want those outlawed.

Or has any kind of sexual experience while married that doesn’t lead to full intercourse

Well, that would obviously be impractical to enforce.

 

[Benadam]

I just want to preserve the matrimonial bond so its meaning isnt lost. Do you believe it is a reality, that has a functional purpose critical to man and essential to being fully human?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I wouldn’t suppose that permitting the willful killing of an innocent human being is ever a permissible act

But that’s the point. I don’t think very many women who have abortions say to themselves “I am now going to kill an innocent human being.” They say “I am going to remove these cells that are growing inside me.” They do not recognize the fetus as “an innocent human being.” But again (last time?) this is the point–different religions have different points at which they recognize the fetus as “an innocent human being.” This is not a question of science, it’s a question of belief. And everyone has a right to their own beliefs. And I have no right to inflict my beliefs on others, nor do they have a right to inflict their beliefs on me.

 

[Benadam]

I would argue that today the values and beliefs that emerged from well formed consciences are the enemy to those who have a conscience informed by popular media and its current agenda.

I don’t subscribe to fslse notions of a political correctness like 'i don’t want to impose my values" if i believe that what i vslue are true goods., im going to promote them. What is politics for if not to realize identified good and form policies thst provide them. I think my beliefs and values are good