Why the lack of Tridentine Mass?

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Rara Avis:
If I were you I would pray that that sparse group never falls apart because if it does … good bye Indult
I realize you’re motivated by love of the TLM, but praying for the persistence of schism is nearly as bad as schism itself.
 
Maybe there are some canon law experts who can help me out with this question. By what authority do local bishops refuse to allow the Tridentine Mass? To me, this seems to be in open defiance of the express wishes of His Holiness and ignores a perpetual indult already granted for this.
 

I’m no expert but I offer you “Quattuor abhinc annos” which is what I’m guessing you are referring to. This is the letter which Ecclesia Dei refers to. Your assumptions that the Tridentine must be made available to everyone everywhere doesn’t seem to exist. Please noticed the parts I’ve highlighted. Can you tell me where you get the idea that the bishops “ignores a perpetual indult already granted for this?” Maybe I just haven’t seen the document you are referring to.​

Most Rev. Excellency:

Four years ago, by order of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II, the bishops of the whole Church were invited to present a report:

concerning the way in which the priests and faithful of their dioceses had received the Missal promulgated in 1970 by authority of Pope Paul VI in accordance with the decisions of the Second Vatican Council;
concerning the difficulties arising in the implementation of the liturgical reform;
concerning possible resistance that may have arisen.
The result of the consultation was sent to all bishops (cf. Notitiae, n. 185, December 1981). On the basis of their replies it appeared that the problem of priests and faithful holding to the so-called “Tridentine” rite was almost completely solved.

Since, however, the same problem continues, the Supreme Pontiff, in a desire to meet the wishes of these groups, grants to diocesan bishops the possibility of using an indult whereby priests and faithful, who shall be expressly indicated in the letter of request to be presented to their own bishop, may be able to celebrate Mass by using the Roman Missal according to the 1962 edition, but under the following conditions:

a) That it be made publically clear beyond all ambiguity that such priests and their respective faithful in no way share the positions of those who call in question the legitimacy and doctrinal exactitude of the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970.

b) Such celebration must be made only for the benefit of those groups that request it; in churches and oratories indicated by the bishop (not, however, in parish churches, unless the bishop permits it in extraordinary cases); and on the days and under the conditions fixed by the bishop either habitually or in individual cases.

c) These celebrations must be according to the 1962 Missal and in Latin.

d) There must be no interchanging of texts and rites of the two Missals.

e) Each bishop must inform this Congregation of the concessions granted by him, and at the end of a year from the granting of this indult, he must report on the result of its application.

This concession, indicative of the common Father’s solicitude for all his children, must be used in such a way as not to prejudice the faithful observance of the liturgical reform in the life of the respective ecclesial communities.

I am pleased to avail myself of this occasion to express to Your Excellency my sentiments of deep esteem.

Yours devotedly in the Lord.

+Augustin Mayer, Pro-Prefect

+Virgilio Noe, Secretary.

(Translation “L’Osservatore Romano”, English edition, Oct. 22, 1984)
 
Is it possible the priests and musicians just don’t know how to do a TM now? I ask because our parish just started this suggestion-box thing, and I was thinking of asking for a TLM or at least a little Latin in the new Mass the way EWTN does. But I wonder if it would be a big trauma for our pianist, cantor, younger priests etc. And how is their Latin and all that…
 
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bear06:
I’m no expert but I offer you “Quattuor abhinc annos” which is what I’m guessing you are referring to. This is the letter which Ecclesia Dei refers to. Your assumptions that the Tridentine must be made available to everyone everywhere doesn’t seem to exist. Please noticed the parts I’ve highlighted. Can you tell me where you get the idea that the bishops “ignores a perpetual indult already granted for this?” Maybe I just haven’t seen the document you are referring to.
This is what I mean:
In Quo Primum, Pope St. Pius V granted a perpetual indult to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. In this he says:
Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemorial prescription - except, however, if more than two hundred years’ standing.
Given this, I do not see how an American Bishop can refuse. Perpetual is perpetual, is it not?

I do realize that His Holiness has not explicitly demanded that the Tridentine Mass be celebrated ( not that the American Bishops would listen anyway), but by refusing to grant an indult, the Bishops are acting contrary to the express wishes of His Holiness. - Pope John Paul II wants the Tridentine Mass to be available everywhere and the Bishops say no.
 
Munda cor meum:
This is what I mean:
In Quo Primum, Pope St. Pius V granted a perpetual indult to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. In this he says:

Given this, I do not see how an American Bishop can refuse. Perpetual is perpetual, is it not?

I do realize that His Holiness has not explicitly demanded that the Tridentine Mass be celebrated ( not that the American Bishops would listen anyway), but by refusing to grant an indult, the Bishops are acting contrary to the express wishes of His Holiness. - Pope John Paul II wants the Tridentine Mass to be available everywhere and the Bishops say no.
Is it possible that the Order of the Mass is not the same as the theology of the Mass? Wouldn’t the Order of the Mass fall under discipline and order; and the theology of the Mass fall under Faith and Morals? The Pope would not be able to bind his successors under the former, only the latter.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Is it possible that the Order of the Mass is not the same as the theology of the Mass? Wouldn’t the Order of the Mass fall under discipline and order; and the theology of the Mass fall under Faith and Morals? The Pope would not be able to bind his successors under the former, only the latter.
I’m not sure what you mean. I think you are saying that Pope St. Pius V did not have the authority to bind his successors in this case. Is that what you mean?
 
Munda cor meum:
I’m not sure what you mean. I think you are saying that Pope St. Pius V did not have the authority to bind his successors in this case. Is that what you mean?
Yes that is exactly it. The form of the Mass is a matter of discipline and discipline can change and no pope can bind his successors on matters of discipline.

Just as the current pope issued a new version of canon law he can change other disciplines. The pope is not even bound by discipline he sets. For example, the Holy Father set a limit on the number of cardinals in the Church but then he appointed more than that number the last time he made more cardinals.

If the Missal that is spoken of in Quo Primum could not be changed then the Church is in deep trouble as there were changes to it. The 1962 Missal is not the same Mass as was in the time of that encyclical.
 
Munda cor meum said:
This is what I mean:
In Quo Primum, Pope St. Pius V granted a perpetual indult to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. In this he says:
OK, now I understand where you are coming from. One thing people do not seem to understand is that one Pope cannot bind another Pope in matters of DISCIPLINE. The liturgy falls under this category. Here’s an excellent article:
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/QUOPIUS.HTM
I do realize that His Holiness has not explicitly demanded that the Tridentine Mass be celebrated ( not that the American Bishops would listen anyway), but by refusing to grant an indult, the Bishops are acting contrary to the express wishes of His Holiness. - Pope John Paul II wants the Tridentine Mass to be available everywhere and the Bishops say no
This is not true according to the CDF’s letter that I posted above. The Pope refers to this letter in Ecclesia Dei so obviously he has given his stamp of approval to the CDF’s letter.

Let’s look a few paragraphs in Ecclesia Dei.
To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by **means of the necessary measures **
to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask for the support of the bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church.

I’m sure that this is the paragraph that you feel supports your argument but his remedy for this situation is found 2 quotes down and it’s not what you think it is if you refer to “Quattuor abhinc annos.”
In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of

ceasing their support in any way for that movement

. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.(8)

QUOTE]c) moreover, respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, **by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See ** for the use of the Roman Missal according to the typical edition of 1962.(9

How many times have people on this list suggested that we should have sympathy for SSPX or even be thankful to SSPX for the indults? Let’s look at publications like the Remnant, Seattle Catholic, etc. Even Mr. Davies in Latin Mass Magazine said that we should give money to Latin Mass only orgs and then went on to list SSPX as one of them. So, wouldn’t these be the people also be acting contrary to the will of the Pope?

There is a tendency to pick and choose what we want to buy into. You’re correct in saying that the Pope didn’t expressly demand that the Indult to be granted to all. In fact, he refers back to the CDF document to be the guide as to what he wants implemented.

The directives are found in “Quattuor abhinc annos” as footnoted in Ecclesia Dei. Nowhere does it say that everyone everywhere is to receive an indult. In fact, it says only under special circumstances are diocesan parishes to receive the indult at the discretion of the bishop.
 
Please note that part of my reply is in the yellow quote box. There seems to be some techinical glich in this post.
Thanks!
 
God allowed His people to walk 40 years in the Desert.
God kept His people in Babylon for 40 years.
This is the best way I can describe it.
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Lurch104:
Hello All,

After reading another thread on the N.O. Vs Tridentine mass and Indults, I was wondering why some bishops will not issue an indult? Or, why the limited Tridentine masses? I understand that it is the bishop’s right entirely not to grant an indult, but I can’t for the life of me understand why he would not liberaly issue the indults (assuming priests properly trained in the rite). Am I missing something? What is the downside if some prefer the pre-VII mass?

I myself have never attended a Tridentine mass, but would welcome the oppurtunity. Here in Central PA, we do have the mass once per month, but it is in a local high school. I guess that is why I am waiting. I want my first experience to be in a real church, preferably an older gothic style. I have read that in Baltimore, I may be able to find such a service, any thoughts? Any pointers for a neophyte to this service?
 
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caroljm36:
Is it possible the priests and musicians just don’t know how to do a TM now? I ask because our parish just started this suggestion-box thing, and I was thinking of asking for a TLM or at least a little Latin in the new Mass the way EWTN does. But I wonder if it would be a big trauma for our pianist, cantor, younger priests etc. And how is their Latin and all that…
No not really… Latin is a subject that all priests must of taken in seminary.
Well this depends on your musicians. TLM is an organ only Mass… Well trained cantors will know how to chant and even if they don’t there is always time for an "education"session at a monastery…
Go for it! YOu could even ask your bishop. God will not look down at you!
 
Munda cor meum:
Perpetual is perpetual, is it not?
No, perpetual means that it was not limited to a specific amount of time (e.g. for 10 years). It is and has been accepted that the only issues which the Chruch cannot change are Revealed Truth; that is, Faith and Morals. In other words, the Church cannot overturn the belief in the Ressurection, or the 4th Commanment.
The making of the Mass as it existed between the time of Trent and Vatican 2 the universal rite of the Roman rite was a matter of judgement and essentially a liturgical law, and like other laws, it could be changed.
Note, I said universal rite, not exclusive rite. Since the time of Trent, there have been other legitimate rites within the Roman rite, a fact that those who lean to the far right about the Tridentine Mass conveniently overlook.
 
Hi,

I am old enough to had my first communion and confirmation in the latin rite. I remember there was many who questioned the need for a change, both pro and con. The NO mass could never replace the TLM for me.
Unfortuneatly the Bishop here takes the attitude that those who follow the Latin Rite are a annoyance and the Bishop feels they are renegades.
To the Bishops credit the TLM is offered 25 miles outside the city at 8:30 am on Sunday morning in a somewhat unused small chapel. I like others are glad it is offered, but somehow feel unwelcome in the church because of our love of the Latin Rite.

To say very candidly the Latin Rite had to go in order for Catholiscm to morph into what it is today, a church for all faiths to cling to in their own way, for good or bad, this is where were headed.

Fogny
 
Here’s my two cents …

The Tridentine Mass was never banned. However, it was no longer the normative Mass of the Latin Church after Vatican II. Was liturgical reform necessary? See my answer below.

For now, it ought to be understood that prior to Vatican II, the Latin Church could only celebrate the Mass with the editio typica of the *Missale Romanum *(first printed edition was 1474),unless one had an indult to do otherwise. As revisions to the Missale Romanum occurred, they were declared by the Roman Pontiff to be the editio typica and all were obliged to celebrate according to the editio typica, unless one had an indult to do otherwise.

Prior to the invention of the printing press, and up to the time of the Council of Trent, there was a wide variety in the Latin liturgy. Under the heading "Varity of Missals", the 1909 CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Missal
Although the “Missale secundum consuetudinem Romanae curiae” obtained great vogue and was destined eventually to be officially adopted and to supplant all others, throughout the Middle Ages every province, indeed almost every diocese, had its local use, and while the Canon of the Mass was everywhere the same, the prayers in the “Ordo Missae”, and still more the “Proprium Sanctorum” and the “Proprium de Tempore”, were apt to differ widely in the service books.
The article above goes on to state that the local uses gave way to uniformity for two reasons: 1) advantage of uniformity, 2) primacy of Roman authority.

In the military, we call this “unity of command.” It has it’s advantages toward unit cohesion. But there are also disadvantages. The advantages come at a cost to plurality of ideas and expression.

The post-Trent Church no doubt believed it was time to have greater unity of command, Church cohesion, but at the cost of plurality of liturgy. Throughout most of the Church’s history, however, there was a plurality of liturgies.

Although the post-Trent Church reduced the pluarlity of liturgies in the Latin Church, it was not an strictly an elimination of liturgical plurality, as there were indults allowed even then, on quite a limited basis.

Vatican II continued the policy of restricting the diversity of liturgy in the Latin Church. They promulgated a revised edition to the Missale Romanum, and decree that the Pauline revision shall be the *edition typica. *Thus, as with after Trent, Vatican II allowed indults but only on a limited basis.

I tend to agree with Cardinal Ratzinger that there’s room in the Latin Church for a plurality of liturgical expression.

**Was liturgical reform necessary? **

I think of the Tridentine Liturgy as “solid food,” when what the Church needed, after decades of modernism, was “milk.”

Even prior to Vatican II it became appearant that modernism was shifting the philosophical viewpoint of unbelievers as well as the taught Church. The Church must, by its very mission, speak to unbelievers where they are. St. Paul, for example, quoted from Greek thinkers to evangelize the Greeks. The Church must alway express the same immutable truth in ways that can resonate with modern ears. The truth does not change. But those who need to hear the truth, unfortunately, keep changing. Thus, the expression of that truth cannot forever remain the same.

As a catechist, I understand that Summa Theologica is better than other texts, but a new convert is not ready for it. Thus, perhaps a Catholic Answers tract, while less meaty, is more digestable.

If the large majority within the Church cannot digest solid food, it is imprudent to continue to normatively force feed people on that which they are not likely to digest. Instead, it may be more prudent to feed them the “milk” of the Pauline Mass.

I believe that the Tridentine Mass ought to be available and celebrated in every diocese. However, the huge parish that I frequent just wouldn’t “get it” if they celebrated that Mass, they just couldn’t digest it. I believe that’s precisely WHY that FSSP Mass is tiny Church that is half filled.
 
Its true about youth . Im 18 and will attend nothing less then the TLM in the Catholic Parish in the town over. But youth dont get it. I took my gf who I love dearly there and she just kinda got nothing out of it. Shes like " i like it in my own language". And she doesnt like how the priests “bad mouth other religions”. She doesnt accept the supremacy of the Pope on the basis that “hes just human”. And she kinda has views supporting sola scriptura. It boggles me mind!.

Anthony
 
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A.Pelliccio:
Its true about youth . Im 18 and will attend nothing less then the TLM in the Catholic Parish in the town over. But youth dont get it. I took my gf who I love dearly there and she just kinda got nothing out of it. Shes like " i like it in my own language". And she doesnt like how the priests “bad mouth other religions”. She doesnt accept the supremacy of the Pope on the basis that “hes just human”. And she kinda has views supporting sola scriptura. It boggles me mind!.

Anthony
some youth… Don’t bad mouth us.
Sometimes "pussy/6 year old child"style “Catholicism” [which believes what your gf does] must be upgraded to a more adult model
Please pray for her
 
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bear06:
The directives are found in “Quattuor abhinc annos” as footnoted in Ecclesia Dei. Nowhere does it say that everyone everywhere is to receive an indult. In fact, it says only under special circumstances are diocesan parishes to receive the indult at the discretion of the bishop.
Sorry, I have to disagree.
In the spring of 1989, a report appeared in the June/July issue of The Fatima Crusader stating that a Papal Commission of nine Cardinals determined that the Traditional Mass has never been suppressed.
The report declared that in 1986, the Holy Father appointed a commission of nine Cardinals to examine the legal status of the traditional rite of Mass, commonly known as the “Tridentine Mass”. The commission of Cardinals included Cardinals Ratzinger, Mayer, Oddi, Stickler, Casaroli, Gantin, Innocenti, Palaz-zini, and Tomko was instructed to examine two questions:
  1. Did Pope Paul VI authorize the bishops to forbid the celebration of the traditional Mass?
  1. Does the priest have the right to celebrate the traditional Mass in public and in private without restriction, even against the will of his bishop?
The Commission, the account stated, unanimously determined that Pope Paul VI never gave the bishops the authority to forbid priests from celebrating the traditional rite of Mass. Regarding the second question: The Commission stated that priests cannot be obligated to celebrate the new rite of Mass; the bishops cannot forbid or place restrictions on the celebration of the traditional rite of Mass whether in public or in private.
The entire contents of the above quote can be found here:

oltyn.com/tridmass.htm

I understand that a Bishop could not be compelled to support the Tridentine Mass - He cannot be forced to use Dioscean resources, but this is different that fobidding the Mass.

Perhaps we are not too far off after all. If we can both agree that a Bishop cannot forbid celebration of the Tridentine Mass, but that he cannnot be forced to support it, we will be saying apparently the same thing.
 
If every priest can celebrate the Tridentine Mass, then why the need for the indult? You see, you intepretation conflicts with reality. From the Holy See, a much more authoritative source …
Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments
To the Presidents of the world’s various Episcopal Conferences.

Circular Letter
****Quattuor abhinc annos
October 3, 1984

This letter from the Holy See granted an "indult" for bishops to authorize celebration of the so-called “Tridentine” Mass according to the 1962 Missal. See also Pope John Paul II’s 1988 **Ecclesia Dei adflictaApostolic Letter Motu Proprio - establishing the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” to address concerns arising from activities of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and his followers (July 2, 1988)

Most Rev. Excellency:

Four years ago, by order of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II, the bishops of the whole Church were invited to present a report:
  • concerning the way in which the priests and faithful of their dioceses had received the Missal promulgated in 1970 by authority of Pope Paul VI in accordance with the decisions of the Second Vatican Council;
  • concerning the difficulties arising in the implementation of the liturgical reform;
  • concerning possible resistance that may have arisen.
The result of the consultation was sent to all bishops (cf. Notitiae, n. 185, December 1981). On the basis of their replies it appeared that the problem of priests and faithful holding to the so-called “Tridentine” rite was almost completely solved.
Since, however, the same problem continues, the Supreme Pontiff, in a desire to meet the wishes of these groups, grants to diocesan bishops the possibility of using an indult whereby priests and faithful, who shall be expressly indicated in the letter of request to be presented to their own bishop, may be able to celebrate Mass by using the Roman Missal according to the 1962 edition, but under the following conditions:
a) That it be made publically clear beyond all ambiguity that such priests and their respective faithful in no way share the positions of those who call in question the legitimacy and doctrinal exactitude of the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970.
b) Such celebration must be made only for the benefit of those groups that request it; in churches and oratories indicated by the bishop (not, however, in parish churches, unless the bishop permits it in extraordinary cases); and on the days and under the conditions fixed by the bishop either habitually or in individual cases.
c) These celebrations must be according to the 1962 Missal and in Latin.

d) There must be no interchanging of texts and rites of the two Missals.

e) Each bishop must inform this Congregation of the concessions granted by him, and at the end of a year from the granting of this indult, he must report on the result of its application.
This concession, indicative of the common Father’s solicitude for all his children, must be used in such a way as not to prejudice the faithful observance of the liturgical reform in the life of the respective ecclesial communities.
I am pleased to avail myself of this occasion to express to Your Excellency my sentiments of deep esteem.
Yours devotedly in the Lord.

+Augustin Mayer, Pro-Prefect

+Virgilio Noe, Secretary.

(Translation* “L’Osservatore Romano”*, English edition, Oct. 22, 1984)
 
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