Why the rejection of a hell now?

[GEddie]

Not to mention, even Job got to that point, yet is commended by God at the end.

ICXC NIKA

 

[clem456]

Hello Clem.

Yes this is so true, but it gives you some insight into the depths of despair some folks experience in their lives. That is what the stressors of life can do to the mind and there are those whose depression is so deep they actually do despair of life. Yeah they get that bad.

Glenda

Been there done that.
With Asperger’s and anxiety and depression at times. Social phobias.

Gratitude is the first step out of it. If we can be grateful for the difficult situation we are in and still give to others, God will bless us. It has happened for me time after time. Just give, without counting the cost. Even when it seems like you have nothing to give, give your poverty and God will make your gift fruitful.

 

[clem456]

Hello Clem.

Yes this is so true, but it gives you some insight into the depths of despair some folks experience in their lives. That is what the stressors of life can do to the mind and there are those whose depression is so deep they actually do despair of life. Yeah they get that bad.

Glenda

Been there done that.
With Asperger’s and anxiety and depression at times. Social phobias.

Gratitude is the first step out of it. If we can be grateful for the difficult situation we are in and still give to others, God will bless us. It has happened for me time after time. Just give, without counting the cost. Even when it seems like you have nothing to give, give your poverty and God will make your gift fruitful.

 

[ericc]

It is difficult to imagine an all-loving God who would punish a person who denied him for say, 80 years, with an eternity of horrible suffering in hell. We’re talking a trillion times a trillion years–and that’s just getting started.

It goes both ways. You can say that for someone who accepted Jesus for x number of years should not deserve eternal bliss either. There are some who have been bad for many years but did an about turn on the eve of their life will be saved too. Are you saying that those in heaven should not deserve eternal bliss and after x years detour to hell?

Or should we see good and bad guys rubbing shoulders in heaven, some against their wishes?

God has many attributes. Justice is one of them. Those who preach a gospel of love only i.e. He love us too much to send us to hell, suddenly forgot God is Just too. . I’m sorry but this is the devil playing with your mind and word games with the Bible. When the Book of Life is opened, everyone knows why they are where they are. For those who preach a hell-less afterlife, that is a Bible of their own making. For them to argue otherwise is to call Jesus a liar and many other prophets/apostles too. Frankly, God has made the rules of salvation rather clear. One can do special pleading but I think mostly it is a fruitless exercise. God knows your most intimate thoughts. Invincible ignorance is the escape clause but I think mostly not available to those seeking to use it. If you know about it, you are no longer or have an excuse to remain clueless.

Lastly, there is no time in eternity. I don’t think there is a need of a clock in hell or in heaven after Judgement Day. Your trillion of years has no meaning. How to imagine eternity then? My version would be to imagine what it is like before the Big Bang where time hasn’t started .

 

[glendab]

Hello Clem.

Been there done that.
With Asperger’s and anxiety and depression at times. Social phobias.

Gratitude is the first step out of it. If we can be grateful for the difficult situation we are in and still give to others, God will bless us. It has happened for me time after time. Just give, without counting the cost. Even when it seems like you have nothing to give, give your poverty and God will make your gift fruitful.

Thank you for sharing that about yourself. That is brave of you. I will pray for you and don’t ever give up. Remember, feelings aren’t facts and do change no matter how intense. Hang in there.

Glenda

 

[Ignatius]

On another web site I go to there are so many people in the Christianity forum that say there is no hell and if there is one, no one goes there. All are saved.

That would be a Jehovah’s Witness and a few Protestant denominations. The Catholic Church teaches the reality of Hell per the statements of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[GEddie]

That would be a Jehovah’s Witness and a few Protestant denominations. The Catholic Church teaches the reality of Hell per the statements of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

The JWs et al, do not teach that all are saved.

To them, we all just remain dead until the last day (soul-sleep), then the found “just” will be awakened to restored life, but those found unworthy will just remain dead.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Mikefitzgerald]

Life is a gift. To wish you were never born is to reject the gift. “It is better that I do not exist”. It’s throwing the gift back at God.

Hello Clem, I’m delighted someone took the time to answer my first question on this or any forum. I’m a man of limited intelligence unlike you guys(high school diploma was my limit) so bear with me. I was good catholic once. My father was a very devout catholic,sometimes going to two masses on a Sunday. He was a gentle soul, never pressured his six children on religion, if anyone missed mass he gently chided them and that was it. He was a voracious reader and could discuss almost any subject especially religion. But I hardly ever listened to him ( what teenager is interested in religion?).It’s because of my tremendous respect for him that I’m interested in the subject. Why did I lapse. Because I couldn’t get answers, or at least answers I could understand, and I could’nt remain a hypocrite( sorry, I need answers, that’s the way I am). So I want to give it one last shot(I’m 72). Enough about me (sorry if you’re bored).To get back to your answer. Did’nt Christ say of Judas “it were better that this man was never born” Is’nt that going against what you said. Was Christ wrong saying that it would have been better if Judas hadn’t been born so that he couldn’t betray him and therefore we all would never have been be saved? Try that one for a start. Thanks again.

 

[clem456]

Hello Clem, I’m delighted someone took the time to answer my first question on this or any forum. I’m a man of limited intelligence unlike you guys(high school diploma was my limit) so bear with me. I was good catholic once. My father was a very devout catholic,sometimes going to two masses on a Sunday. He was a gentle soul, never pressured his six children on religion, if anyone missed mass he gently chided them and that was it. He was a voracious reader and could discuss almost any subject especially religion. But I hardly ever listened to him ( what teenager is interested in religion?).It’s because of my tremendous respect for him that I’m interested in the subject. Why did I lapse. Because I couldn’t get answers, or at least answers I could understand, and I could’nt remain a hypocrite( sorry, I need answers, that’s the way I am). So I want to give it one last shot(I’m 72). Enough about me (sorry if you’re bored).To get back to your answer. Did’nt Christ say of Judas “it were better that this man was never born” Is’nt that going against what you said. Was Christ wrong saying that it would have been better if Judas hadn’t been born so that he couldn’t betray him and therefore we all would never have been be saved? Try that one for a start. Thanks again.

it is tough to reconcile God’s omniscience and his omnipotence. He knows everything, and he is powerful enough to do something about it. So why allow someone who may go to hell to even come into existence?
And it does seem that Jesus expresses this inconsistency in his statement “Better for that man that he had never been born”.
Maybe Christ is expressing a lament, and not a doctrinal statement? Perhaps Christ knows the suffering Judas will undergo as a result of his choices, and he is lamenting the fate of someone he loves. We all know someone who is perhaps making choices that will lead to their own destruction. Some people know their own fate if they continue down a certain path. We can’t force them to change. We lament their life. Do you know anyone like this?
In any case Judas makes a choice. We are all given the gift of life, given a free will. God asks us to respond to the gift, to choose to love him in return.

God creates Judas (and you and I) because God loves. God loves by his nature. Love creates, so God cannot -not- create.
God creates us, while knowing that each of us will reject him in various ways. God is the ultimate demonstration of trust, and the ultimate risk-taker.

 

[Mikefitzgerald]

it is tough to reconcile God’s omniscience and his omnipotence. He knows everything, and he is powerful enough to do something about it. So why allow someone who may go to hell to even come into existence?
And it does seem that Jesus expresses this inconsistency in his statement “Better for that man that he had never been born”.
Maybe Christ is expressing a lament, and not a doctrinal statement? Perhaps Christ knows the suffering Judas will undergo as a result of his choices, and he is lamenting the fate of someone he loves. We all know someone who is perhaps making choices that will lead to their own destruction. Some people know their own fate if they continue down a certain path. We can’t force them to change. We lament their life. Do you know anyone like this?
In any case Judas makes a choice. We are all given the gift of life, given a free will. God asks us to respond to the gift, to choose to love him in return.

God creates Judas (and you and I) because God loves. God loves by his nature. Love creates, so God cannot -not- create.
God creates us, while knowing that each of us will reject him in various ways. God is the ultimate demonstration of trust, and the ultimate risk-taker.

Wow! that was fast,the ink was hardly dry on my reply( sorry, I’m Irish).To get back to your answer: you say quote “Maybe Christ is expressing a lament, and not a doctrinal statement?” How do you know? Maybe he means exactly what the statement says And surely if Christ said it then it must be doctrinal, and the church then says it’s not doctrinal because it does’nt fit in.Next you say quote “Perhaps Christ knows the suffering Judas will undergo as a result of his choices, and he is lamenting the fate of someone he loves.” If Christ(God) is going to lament the fate of Judas ie someone he loves, for eternity how will he ever be happy.Finally you say quote" God cannot-not-create".To quote Einstein( I think),“don’t tell God what He can’t do” Thanks again. BTW if this bores you please say so, that’s the last thing I want to happen.

 

[clem456]

Wow! that was fast,the ink was hardly dry on my reply( sorry, I’m Irish).To get back to your answer: you say quote “Maybe Christ is expressing a lament, and not a doctrinal statement?” How do you know? Maybe he means exactly what the statement says And surely if Christ said it then it must be doctrinal, and the church then says it’s not doctrinal because it does’nt fit in.

How do I “know”? First I would say that knowing is not just book knowledge. Neither of us is a theologian. Knowing is taken in the context of what the Church teaches as a whole. So I listen to the Church’s teaching on the unique dignity of every person. Every person has free will. Every person is created by God. God is love.
Just because the statement from Christ is not doctrinal doesn’t mean great truth is not expressed. So it’s not either/or.
How about the statement “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?”…the mother of all laments from the Son of God.

Next you say quote “Perhaps Christ knows the suffering Judas will undergo as a result of his choices, and he is lamenting the fate of someone he loves.” If Christ(God) is going to lament the fate of Judas ie someone he loves, for eternity how will he ever be happy.Finally you say quote" God cannot-not-create".To quote Einstein( I think),“don’t tell God what He can’t do” Thanks again.

Point taken.
What I’m trying to say is, God creates by nature. That’s what love does. It is always fruitful. So the fact that Judas does not unite his free will to God does not mean that God fails to love him enough to create him. He creates Judas out of love. Judas rejects the gift. (we all do in one way or another)

I love the marriage analogy.
When you take the vow and enter the marriage covenant, you know ahead when you make the commitment that your loved one will hurt you…
“for better or worse”.
Why would anyone get married? Because we love. We desire the best for the other. We give ourselves to the other, even while knowing we will get hurt at some point.

 

[Ignatius]

The JWs et al, do not teach that all are saved.

This subject of this thread isn’t about if all are saved. It is about rejection of Hell.

The JW, etc.teach that (because the Soul is annihilated) there is no Eternal Hell, which is the subject of this thread. Which is precisely what I posted.

 

[Mikefitzgerald]

How do I “know”? First I would say that knowing is not just book knowledge. Neither of us is a theologian. Knowing is taken in the context of what the Church teaches as a whole. So I listen to the Church’s teaching on the unique dignity of every person. Every person has free will. Every person is created by God. God is love.
Just because the statement from Christ is not doctrinal doesn’t mean great truth is not expressed. So it’s not either/or.
How about the statement “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?”…the mother of all laments from the Son of God.

Point taken.
What I’m trying to say is, God creates by nature. That’s what love does. It is always fruitful. So the fact that Judas does not unite his free will to God does not mean that God fails to love him enough to create him. He creates Judas out of love. Judas rejects the gift. (we all do in one way or another).

I love the marriage analogy.
When you take the vow and enter the marriage covenant, you know ahead when you make the commitment that your loved one will hurt you…
“for better or worse”.
Why would anyone get married? Because we love. We desire the best for the other. We give ourselves to the other, even while knowing we will get hurt at some point.

hi Clem again, sorry I was busy yesterday. This morning I was visited by two Jehovahs witnesses. Is god telling me something? I discovered they don’t believe in hell, after the last judgement there will be no heaven Earth will be our heaven I think, they lost me at that point. Don’t worry! no conversion there, they left disappointed. But I very nearly converted them (to what ? I don’t know).Do I get brownie points for that? Sorry I digress (can’t help it, I’m Irish).To get back to the points you made, you said quote “So I listen to the Church’s teaching” etc. Fair enough, I take that to mean ( correct me If I’m wrong) the bible, scripture and so on. But you should know that you can’t test the authenticity, the veracity of the bible by using the bible as a reference for itself i.e.the bible. I’m looking for an independent source. Don’t think there is one, is there? Next point, quote "How about the statement “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” Therein lies another conundrum. Let me see If I can get it, Christ(God) asks God(Christ?) why he (is that Christ or God?) forsook him (Christ or God?). I forgot! the Trinity isn’t it?, an even worse conundrum, don’t even go there. If I appear sarcastic or mocking believe me its unintentional. Its due to me trying to “seek the truth” for nearly sixty years and being reduced to an old cynical curmudgeon. Next point, the part about Judas, you say (indirectly) that Christ redeemed mankind, shouldn’t you really add “with the help of Judas” otherwise are you telling me, Christ(God) used Judas. If so then poor Judas got the rawest of raw deals since the creation of man. About the marriage bit: we are all only human I’ m talking about God. I think we’re singing from different hymn sheets (pun definetly intended).Bye for now​

"to be or not to be that is the question" Shakespeare

 

[oneofmany]

Well Mike we certainly learned a lesson from Judas’ sin, didn’t we. Maybe that is why Judas was born and what Jesus was teaching us through him. A hard lesson for sure. If we watch other people who fall into sin and what happens to them when they do, we should learn to do differently. But the bottom line was Judas still had free will and he could have chosen differently.

 

[oneofmany]

I also remember someone on Catholic Answers say Judas could have repented and asked for forgiveness, he certainly was sorry for betraying Jesus, like Peter was sorry for denying knowing Him. But Judas fell into despair and didn’t believe his sin could be forgiven. Peter had more faith in God and knew if he repented he would be forgiven.

We all need to remember, no matter what we do or how dreadful our sin is, if we repent and ask for forgiveness and do penance, God will grant us forgiveness since God’s grace is bigger than anything we could ever imagine.

 

[ericc]

To get back to the points you made, you said quote “So I listen to the Church’s teaching” etc. Fair enough, I take that to mean ( correct me If I’m wrong) the bible, scripture and so on. But you should know that you can’t test the authenticity, the veracity of the bible by using the bible as a reference for itself i.e.the bible. I’m looking for an independent source. Don’t think there is one, is there?

The Bible can not interpret itself. You would need the Church to do that. After all, the Bible is the product of the Church. We have been told to take it to the Church if we have disputes among ourselves, not the Bible.

Next point, quote "How about the statement “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” Therein lies another conundrum. Let me see If I can get it, Christ(God) asks God(Christ?) why he (is that Christ or God?) forsook him (Christ or God?).

Jesus even as he was dying was quoting Psalm 22. Psalm 22 calls out to God, presents the suffering of the speaker, talks of enemies and ends in praise. It falls into two parts: verses 1-21 (lament) and verses 22-31 (praise). So, even as he was dying , he was praising God although he would be exerting all his strength just to utter those words. (You could hardly breathe in a crucifixion. Many died from suffocation rather than injuries. Google for gory details.)

Next point, the part about Judas, you say (indirectly) that Christ redeemed mankind, shouldn’t you really add “with the help of Judas” otherwise are you telling me, Christ(God) used Judas. If so then poor Judas got the rawest of raw deals since the creation of man.

No one forced Judas to sin. Having a good thing arising out of a bad act does not earn brownie points for Judas. He and all the apostles were clueless about the resurrection. They were expecting Jesus to overthrow the Roman rulers. With or without Judas, Jesus enemies were out to get him one way or the other. It was convenient for temple authorities to have Judas volunteered his services for a fee. Many times they have tried to trap Jesus by posing difficult questions but Jesus always outsmart them. (e.g. stoning the adulteress, paying tax to Caesar etc.

 

[Mikefitzgerald]

I also remember someone on Catholic Answers say Judas could have repented and asked for forgiveness, he certainly was sorry for betraying Jesus, like Peter was sorry for denying knowing Him. But Judas fell into despair and didn’t believe his sin could be forgiven. Peter had more faith in God and knew if he repented he would be forgiven.

We all need to remember, no matter what we do or how dreadful our sin is, if we repent and ask for forgiveness and do penance, God will grant us forgiveness since God’s grace is bigger than anything we could ever imagine.

hi there, (one of many) how do I address you? I’m new to this forum. However what you said about Judas, I say this. I just can’t get my head around it. Christ said " it were better that this man was never born". That means Judas is in hell. There is no other possible explanation. You can talk about meanings, the problems with ancient translations grammar etc, but Christ doesn’t lie so we must accept it. Having accepted it, imagine Judas in hell. He would say to Christ (God?) if he could. "why didn’t you mind your own business. I was in oblivion before I was born . I wasn’t troubling you or anyone else, I didn’t exist. Then you through your meddling, like a mad scientist in a laboratory, created me like a frankstein monster not Knowing who or what I was.I now find myself here suffering indiscribable agonies for eternity. Yes, yes I know all about free will. But the bottom line is I would have been infinitely better off if you had left me in oblivion. Thanks a lot God (Christ?).

 

[SerfOfJMJ]

In my own simplicity the way I view it is this: You aren’t happy with following God’s commandments here on Earth, what makes you think you will change your mind after death? You don’t change after death. Your personality remains the same. How loving would God be if He gave you free will only to, in the end of all things, to rescind His gift and force you into Heaven when you would not be comfortable with Him?

Coming from Mormonism, this is one thing that is taught to us. It’s a beautiful doctrine that the Mormons believe ALL will be saved except the devil and his angels and the sons of perditions (those who have committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit). However, the sad thing is, you can set a false doctrine as an idol because it makes you feel good.

Even in the end, God is ultimately God. He knows what He is doing and how He is doing it. We should be concerned with making sure we are ready to die in a state of grace so that we are prepared for Heaven, even if there is a time of purification.

 

[Vico]

hi there, (one of many) how do I address you? I’m new to this forum. However what you said about Judas, I say this. I just can’t get my head around it. Christ said " it were better that this man was never born". That means Judas is in hell. There is no other possible explanation. You can talk about meanings, the problems with ancient translations grammar etc, but Christ doesn’t lie so we must accept it. Having accepted it, imagine Judas in hell. He would say to Christ (God?) if he could. "why didn’t you mind your own business. I was in oblivion before I was born . I wasn’t troubling you or anyone else, I didn’t exist. Then you through your meddling, like a mad scientist in a laboratory, created me like a frankstein monster not Knowing who or what I was.I now find myself here suffering indiscribable agonies for eternity. Yes, yes I know all about free will. But the bottom line is I would have been infinitely better off if you had left me in oblivion. Thanks a lot God (Christ?).

There can be no expression of love without free will. Love has an opposite therefore to have an expression of love there is also expression of hate. The angels and mankind manifest this dicotomy through free will.

 

[Mikefitzgerald]

In my own simplicity the way I view it is this: You aren’t happy with following God’s commandments here on Earth, what makes you think you will change your mind after death? You don’t change after death. Your personality remains the same. How loving would God be if He gave you free will only to, in the end of all things, to rescind His gift and force you into Heaven when you would not be comfortable with Him?

Coming from Mormonism, this is one thing that is taught to us. It’s a beautiful doctrine that the Mormons believe ALL will be saved except the devil and his angels and the sons of perditions (those who have committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit). However, the sad thing is, you can set a false doctrine as an idol because it makes you feel good.

Even in the end, God is ultimately God. He knows what He is doing and how He is doing it. We should be concerned with making sure we are ready to die in a state of grace so that we are prepared for Heaven, even if there is a time of purification.

Hi there, you understand it all, but you are being unfair to me. As I said before I’m a man of limited intelligence, but no man can say I haven’t tried. But it seems to me God is saying (like the film Fatal Attraction) “you better love me or I’ll come after you with a knife”. If a woman is crazy about a man but he doesn’t fancy her. She maybe the most beautiful woman in the world but if she doesn’t do anything for him, that’s not his fault. I know it’s not a great comparison with God. Its not that I don’t love God, I just don’t know him. I want to go to heaven. Boy do I want to. The idea of a place like it, the sheer breadth of the idea is so overwhelming it fills me with joy. But that joy has nothing to do with religion. And hell: the thought of a being (soul?) suffering (pain hurts), I’ve read them all Emmerich, Faustina, ( they’re nightmarish ) the thought of all that suffering for any reason and no reason, abhors me.