Why the silliness in the Mass?

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99% of the Masses I’ve attended the musicians are doing the best they can with the talents and skills they have.

We play the music from the songbooks bought by the parish and OK’d by the Bishops Conference.

This morning we sang “For all the saints” ( a wonderful hymn) with a horrible updated version of the words which we all stumbled through, so instead of singing lustily a song which we all knew we stuttered through.

But we still did out best!

I was given a guitar as a kid.:o I wish my mom and dad had bought me a pipe organ, but they were stretching to afford a guitar. Sorry mom - you failed me… NOT!😛

So when I play at mass it’s the guitar, not the pipe organ.

I also feel that music played on a REAL instrument (real strings, real wood etc) is better (more authentic) than synthetic organ music played on an organ look-alike keyboard even if it sounds organish.

If we want perfect music maybe we should just play CDs/mp3s of the best choirs and organs in the world, and forget the local (“lack-of” in some eyes) talent… again… NOT.
 
TimothyH said:
This thread has fallen victim to a firebombing presbyterian who has no interest in traditional worship but revels in causing division between Catholics.

-Tim-
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Oh Well, Maybe this person might learn something. Especially if we are kind to one another.

🙂

How does that song go: “They’ll know we are Christians by our love.”
 
triumphguy said:
99% of the Masses I’ve attended the musicians are doing the best they can with the talents and skills they have.

We play the music from the songbooks bought by the parish and OK’d by the Bishops Conference.

This morning we sang “For all the saints” ( a wonderful hymn) with a horrible updated version of the words which we all stumbled through, so instead of singing lustily a song which we all knew we stuttered through.

But we still did out best!

I was given a guitar as a kid.:o I wish my mom and dad had bought me a pipe organ, but they were stretching to afford a guitar. Sorry mom - you failed me… NOT!😛

So when I play at mass it’s the guitar, not the pipe organ.

I also feel that music played on a REAL instrument (real strings, real wood etc) is better (more authentic) than synthetic organ music played on an organ look-alike keyboard even if it sounds organish.

If we want perfect music maybe we should just play CDs/mp3s of the best choirs and organs in the world, and forget the local (“lack-of” in some eyes) talent… again… NOT.
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:yup:
 
Presbyterian20 said:
My question is out of curiosity not to get into some ill informed dog fight over instruments.
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The post you responded to was simply asking a question for thought. Your response seems provocative and hostile–i.e. by using “ill informed”. I apologize if I am reading a tone and intent into you post that was not there, but would it not perhaps have been better to say something along the lines of “I was not looking to discuss the relative merits of various kinds of music”.

I think you will find guitars at many parishes–at least that has been my experience up and down the west coast–as to the hippie folk songs–don’t really hear those. As I find organ music to be rather like nails on a chalkboard–I am glad to see the fading away of organs (I know tar and feather me for such blashphemy). I find a hymn sung with piano and guitar more beautiful than the same hymn sung with an organ–no accounting for our preferences I guess.

Peace of Christ,
Mark
 
YoungTradCath said:
I am a convert to the faith and I feel exactly the same way. Catholic liturgy and culture, for the most part, and at least in the USA, emphatically fails to live up to the way it is portrayed and the way people commonly perceive it, and I mean that in a negative way. It only makes sense that if the One True Faith really is the One True Faith, then its outward appearances and actions–liturgy and architecture and whatnot–should, insofar as possible, live up to the absolute highest standards. When you have rich suburban parishes building truly horrid spaceship churches and have to bend over backwards to justify it, there is a problem. Beauty never has to be justified. Of course that is just one scenario, but you get my point.

However, thankfully, our obsessive bout of philistinism seems to be dying rapidly and I can’t wait for the day that all this is just a scary footnote in some history book. I know there are still guitars and coffee table Masses, but these are not exactly being “pushed” anymore.

No one expects every parish to be singing Palestrina every Sunday and to build Baroque churches. What should be expected is the very best within the means a parish has. Poor parishes do not have to resort to geetar Masses.
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What is a coffee table mass?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. While I agree with you regarding those churches and would say the same thing about most modern architecture–there are many who would sing the praises of the beauty of what we consider architectual monstrosities. More than beauty the church structure should speak to our theology–these newer churches you describe do not and that is why they have to bend over backwards to justify them–not because some of us consider them to be ugly.

Most any instrument can make beautiful and praiseworth music. Those same instruments can be used in a rather different manner–even the organ (I suggest listening to the Doors for an example of such). Today we listen to Mozarts the Magic Flute and consider it sublime and “highbrow” music and we call it opera. It was not written for the court and the royalty of his day but for the masses–it was a popular production. Our ideas change.

Peace,
Mark
 
MarkInOregon said:
What is a coffee table mass?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. While I agree with you regarding those churches and would say the same thing about most modern architecture–there are many who would sing the praises of the beauty of what we consider architectual monstrosities. More than beauty the church structure should speak to our theology–these newer churches you describe do not and that is why they have to bend over backwards to justify them–not because some of us consider them to be ugly.

Most any instrument can make beautiful and praiseworth music. Those same instruments can be used in a rather different manner–even the organ (I suggest listening to the Doors for an example of such). Today we listen to Mozarts the Magic Flute and consider it sublime and “highbrow” music and we call it opera. It was not written for the court and the royalty of his day but for the masses–it was a popular production. Our ideas change.

Peace,
Mark
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We must always keep in mind who the beholder is.
Do we, as musicians, play for God or are we playing for an audience?
This is a very fine line there that is often crossed.

I pray that my efforts are acceptable to God.

My son is a Presbyterian minister. His approach to Communion Service is not the same as a Catholic Mass. He does not believe that the bread and wine are the body, soul and divinity of Christ. He believes that the bread and wine are a symbol. He treats this with great respect but not with the reverence that is due when we are dealing with the actual blood and body.
 
I agree that a guitar or guitars can be beautiful if the musician(s) is good and the music itself is good.

I’ll also admit that one of my favorite things to hear at Mass is a lady who plays the hammer dulcimer. She’s just astoundingly good at it. Hits so many notes so rapidly you would swear you’re listening to a harpsicord.
 
Hammer Dulcimer at Mass? I guess if its played respectfully it could work. Honestly I’m more of a guitar person, and I think that you need to play actual hymns and not just hippy music, which my diocese does a good job at. Nothing beats an organ though. I wish my church had an organ. I like organ music
 
benjammin said:
Hammer Dulcimer at Mass? I guess if its played respectfully it could work. Honestly I’m more of a guitar person, and I think that you need to play actual hymns and not just hippy music, which my diocese does a good job at. Nothing beats an organ though. I wish my church had an organ. I like organ music
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I like organ too, if it’s a good pipe organ. Not too keen on most electronic organs.

But back to the hammer dulcimer. Can you really hate the following?

youtube.com/watch?v=PrKfyjE0DYg&feature=related
I realize that one is a bit “country”, but how about the following one?

youtube.com/watch?v=htc7tymi-2A&feature=related
 
I’m partial to piano myself, that’s what we have at our Masses.
 
benjammin said:
Hammer Dulcimer at Mass? I guess if its played respectfully it could work. Honestly I’m more of a guitar person, and I think that you need to play actual hymns and not just hippy music, which my diocese does a good job at. Nothing beats an organ though. I wish my church had an organ. I like organ music
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Organ music makes me feel like I’m at a funeral…
 
Phemie said:
It depends on where you live. In my area, parishes are small and guitars are pretty much the norm, along with the type of music you describe. They have no one who can play the organ if they even own one. Larger parishes in larger centers are more likely to have an organist and more traditional music.
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Guitars and electronic keyboards seem to prevail in the suburbs. The core continues to have beautiful pipe organ music. 🙂
 
Even though it’s unnecessary on this thread I feel compelled to give my :twocents: that really relates to something I read on another thread a while ago and didn’t respond.

So here goes: Dan Schutte et.al., are children of God and also human beings with feelings. They wrote music to glorify God. The music may not be exactly to my liking at every given moment, but they were trying to give a gift, and I’ve have done much less than they in terms of my time and effort for my Church.

(The phrase from the earlier thread that bothered me so much - and that I should have responded to directly - was “Dan Schutte clown car music”)
 
If I may throw in my two cents for the reading pleasure of the OP… The music (and also the quality thereof) does and will vary greatly on the parish, pastor, music director, and sometimes even the preference of the parishoners. The Catholic Church is NOT a democracy, but some pastors like to give the parishoners a large voice in some of the ‘details,’ if you will. A happy parish usually has a large degree of involvment from the lay people; and since the Mass is very structured, the lay peoples’ fingerprints can most often be found on the music (within reason).

When I was a young boy in my home parish, the 11:30 Mass had the “folk band” playing various songs that were found in the music book. The 7:00, 8:30, and 10:00 Masses did not have this band playing and had much more tradtitional music.

Maybe this parish doesn’t have an accomplished organ player, or the priest and music director prefer what they think is a more “hip” approach. Could be anything…

If you prefer a more musically traditional Mass, try going at a different time of day, or try a different parish. The Order of the Mass is the same at all parishes, but I think you will find some variation in the music.

As an added bonus, you will get to hear different homilies from the priests at parishes you visit. Each priest has a different ‘teaching style’ and that in itself may be a good reason to look at some different parishes.

Good hunting! 🙂
 
grasscutter said:
Even though it’s unnecessary on this thread I feel compelled to give my :twocents: that really relates to something I read on another thread a while ago and didn’t respond.

So here goes: Dan Schutte et.al., are children of God and also human beings with feelings. They wrote music to glorify God. The music may not be exactly to my liking at every given moment, but they were trying to give a gift, and I’ve have done much less than they in terms of my time and effort for my Church.

(The phrase from the earlier thread that bothered me so much - and that I should have responded to directly - was “Dan Schutte clown car music”)
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I appreciate your sensitivity to those peoples’ humanity, and I am not the one who called it “clown car music”. But if I painted a painting (it would be terrible) does the fact that I am a child of God make it a good painting? Would it please you for that reason alone? No, it would not. You might appreciate my making an effort, but my painting itself would not be pleasing to you, and I could not reasonably expect you to like it just because of my motivations in doing it. And if it irritated your family and guests and even yourself to have to look at my painting on your wall, would you hang it there even so, particularly if you didn’t know me from Adam?

I don’t think you would.
 
jmcrae said:
It’s where the Altar is moveable, and made out of wood. Such Altars are forbidden to contain relics, because someone could steal the thing - hence, “coffee table”.
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Thanks for explaining this. Now could someone explain why the type of alter would lead to a derogatory term like “coffee table mass”. When I hear a term like that I expect a mass celebrated improperly or irreverently. Not simply on an alter made of wood. I guess that does cheapen the celebration of the mass (sarcasm intended).

Peace,
Mark
 
Now something to offend everyone. I’m not suggesting this should be played in a Catholic church. But you know, when you grow up in the mountains and have heard the singing and instrumentation coming out of some hollow, or near some brush arbor fundamentalist revival, or something, you kind of have a spot in your heart for this kind of thing.

Not a month ago, a deep country hillbilly with whom I used to drink a beer now and then under the trees with other hillbillies and swap stories, died. He was buried in a country cemetery under ancient cedar trees that old settlers used to plant in lieu of monuments to mark graves. Confederate and union soldiers are buried under some of those trees.

And some country preacher gave a sermon. Not enlightened. Terrible English, but heartfelt. And music was played; this very song.

I guess you had to be born here (Ozarks) to appreciate things like this. Or in the Smokies or the southern Appalachians.

youtube.com/watch?v=XAAhWcs9sDE&feature=related
 
YoungTradCath said:
I am a convert to the faith and I feel exactly the same way. Catholic liturgy and culture, for the most part, and at least in the USA, emphatically fails to live up to the way it is portrayed and the way people commonly perceive it, and I mean that in a negative way. It only makes sense that if the One True Faith really is the One True Faith, then its outward appearances and actions–liturgy and architecture and whatnot–should, insofar as possible, live up to the absolute highest standards. When you have rich suburban parishes building truly horrid spaceship churches and have to bend over backwards to justify it, there is a problem. Beauty never has to be justified. Of course that is just one scenario, but you get my point.

However, thankfully, our obsessive bout of philistinism seems to be dying rapidly and I can’t wait for the day that all this is just a scary footnote in some history book. I know there are still guitars and coffee table Masses, but these are not exactly being “pushed” anymore.

No one expects every parish to be singing Palestrina every Sunday and to build Baroque churches. What should be expected is the very best within the means a parish has. Poor parishes do not have to resort to geetar Masses.
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My thoughts exactly. I am sure modernized mass also tends to be a mostly American trend.
 
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