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mark_a
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mark_a
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In my humble opinion, the key to good organ music at mass is whether or not the particular church has a PA (or real pipes) good enough to pound out the first octave bass notes.
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triumphguy
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Phemie
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Our parish has an organ and a piano. For several years we had a music teacher who played, but an organist she wasn’t and the results weren’t pretty. OTOH, she had a wonderful voice.Guitars and electronic keyboards seem to prevail in the suburbs. The core continues to have beautiful pipe organ music.
When she left we had no choir or music for at least a year. Then a group of teachers got together to sing at Mass. None had training in music, they were simply a group of friends who sang together at parties accompanied by strummed guitars. We had that for about a year, joined by a few other parishioners who don’t read music and learn by ear. They were later joined by a doctor who could play the organ, but was not organist. He had a softer touch than the previous person and he was often accompanied by strummed guitars. OTOH, he played a fabulous classical guitar, something he unfortunately never did at Mass.
He retired and moved away a year ago. We’re back to strummed guitars and, because the two teachers who are the ‘leaders’ taught Catechism in the Catholic school system, when we had one, we are often treated to songs that were used as part of the catechetical program and are didactic, meant for children and totally unsuitable for Mass.
They also prefer the songs they grew up with in the 70s and Carey Landry is a particular favourite. They would rather use old paperback Glory & Praise booklets than the CBW III which we have in our pews. They know nothing about the GIRM and any time you say “The GIRM says we can’t do this (i.e. sing something other than the official ‘Gloria’)” the response is invariably “Oh, I’m sure God doesn’t mind.”
I must give them their due, though. In spite of everything, they have done a great job learning the new Mass setting even if they had little with which to work considering what we were given in Canada. Sadly, when the CCCB put together the book “Celebrate in Song” they showed their bias by dividing it into sections listed “Mass Setting A”, “Mass setting B”, “Mass setting C”, “Chants”. “Chants” should really have been “Mass setting D”, if not “Mass setting A”, which they would at least have tried out. Not labelling it a Mass setting ensured that our choir, and probably many others, didn’t even look at it.
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Phemie
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Our altar is made of wood and moveable, even if very heavy & solid, but does contain relics in a stone embedded in the mensa.
From the pictures I’ve seen, this altar is the same altar we’ve had since the parish was established in 1958. When you walk around it and look at the back it becomes very obvious that it was simply pulled away from the wall after Vat. II: beautiful enlaid woodwork on the front, plywood on the back. It would have been just as easy to steal the relics in 1958 as it would be today – easier in fact since the church would have been unlocked and unsupervised most of the time.
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clem456
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We have a top notch liturgical director who knows liturgy and liturgical history very well. He is very fluent in pipe organ or piano. He is well versed in ancient music so we incorporate many old Latin pieces at Mass. He also uses lots of modern music with guitars and stand up basses as well as hispanic music with horns and drums. Everything is liturgically correct by the book. He also trains the priests in Mass parts and Easter music etc…Just an unbelievably talented person.
He has a degree in music as well as theology and the parish pays him almost $50,000 plus benefits. We had an old pipe organ for almost a century, that was replaced with a new pipe organ about 15 years ago for about $70,000. So, if you don’t like the liturgical situation in your parish, you need to open up your pocketbook and be part of the solution.
He has a degree in music as well as theology and the parish pays him almost $50,000 plus benefits. We had an old pipe organ for almost a century, that was replaced with a new pipe organ about 15 years ago for about $70,000. So, if you don’t like the liturgical situation in your parish, you need to open up your pocketbook and be part of the solution.
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Irishgal49
Guest
Well there are MAJOR illicit things going on in Mass but the main thing is that I don’t feel at home there. I went quite a few times and will still go when the weather is bad and I can’t get to my preferred location. The older priest there who hears confessions is amazing.Like I said my 2 cents
And I don’t see you judging the parish near by:thumbsup:
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Phemie
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And that just goes to show how different parishes are. What you pay your music director is almost the total income for our parish last year. We paid our Pastor $1000/mo and the administrator who replaced him $500/mo (he was Pastor elsewhere and they paid $500). Finance Council is having a meltdown because the incoming Pastor will be a diocesan priest (that’s never been the case in the 54 years since our parish was erected) and the amount we will be paying him is almost double what we paid a religious priest.
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clem456
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We are located in a rural town in Ohio of about 17,000 people. There are I believe about 400 or so families in the parish. The parish is small but very vibrant and active, and supports a small Catholic school pre-k through 12. The laity is very active in ministry groups led by the pastor of course, but mostly led by a pastoral associate with a degree from LIMEX (she also gets paid a fair wage). It does not take a large parish to have great liturgy or catechesis. It takes commitment to the parish to have a great parish… not wishing you had a different parish.
And I will say that we have almost none of this divisive bickering about the Mass forms or the music. These disputes over the music and which way the priest faces
is all completely new to me. Occasionally we have someone who complains to the choir about the Latin or about the “new” music but the director of liturgy attempts to accomodate different age groups and tastes iin music from ancient to modern to Hispanic.
And I will say that we have almost none of this divisive bickering about the Mass forms or the music. These disputes over the music and which way the priest faces
is all completely new to me. Occasionally we have someone who complains to the choir about the Latin or about the “new” music but the director of liturgy attempts to accomodate different age groups and tastes iin music from ancient to modern to Hispanic.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
When one puts oneself into the public arena and sells a product, one needs to realize that it is then subject to critique.Sometimes the critique is put in blunt fashion so the meaning is clear.
If I paint a painting and show it to my best friend, I would imagine the best friend would be complimentary and nothing else. But I would not expect him to hang it prominently in his house or go touting it to others.
If, on the other hand, I try to sell it for money or hang it in an art show, I ought to know, and would know, that I am then putting it up for critique, even blunt critique. And I should not expect anything else. If my pastor allowed me to paint the ceiling of our church and if it was just dreadful, is everybody supposed to like it or not say, for example, that the figures are misshapen and that the color combinations don’t work?
Is nobody supposed to say “Father, can we please paint that over?”
Lots of people have commented on here that “Catholics don’t sing”. Well, that’s only partially true. In the parishes I attend, if something really is good, people will sing it. If it’s not, they won’t. As a small example, a few months ago the music director introduced a fairly complex hymn written by Mozart. I say it was fairly complex because it was. Grace notes and all. But, like virtually everything by Mozart, it has a “musical logic” to it. You can almost intuit the next notes from the ones before. That’s why it has stood the test of time, like any good art does. Any new hymn is a bit difficult, but after only two introductions, people sang it lustily, and it’s now part of the repertoire. And that’s in the Ozarks. Why would hillbillies like Mozart? Because it’s good art, and good art has resonance within people, whether it’s painting, literature, music or poetry.
But ask them to sing “On Eagles’ Wings”, which they have heard endlessly, few people will. It has only stood the test of time because it’s still in the books and people don’t have a choice. That’s not art. That’s coercion, or attempted coercion. After 40-odd years, one would think the clunkers would have been removed. But no, the same old tedious songs are in them, with some scattered exceptions that people will actually sing. And people then wonder, pointlessly, why “Catholics don’t sing”.
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pnewton
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Play or pay. Be part of the solution by actively participating in the music program or hiring some one who does. Too many people want to complain yet do not want to sacrifice to change anything. It is the American way. Of course the other choice is simply to accept and support those that are giving their time and talent without all the griping and back seat directing.
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Phemie
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I’m in a fairly isolated town of 7200 in Labrador with about the same number of Catholic families as you. Where you have a vibrant parish, I have one populated mainly by retirees and a few younger families. The 18-30 demographic is not represented at all. Some of the retirees have 6-8 children, married with their own families but they never darken the doors except at Christmas – to be fair, my own children do the same thing.We are located in a rural town in Ohio of about 17,000 people. There are I believe about 400 or so families in the parish. The parish is small but very vibrant and active, and supports a small Catholic school pre-k through 12. The laity is very active in ministry groups led by the pastor of course, but mostly led by a pastoral associate with a degree from LIMEX (she also gets paid a fair wage). It does not take a large parish to have great liturgy or catechesis. It takes commitment to the parish to have a great parish… not wishing you had a different parish.
And I will say that we have almost none of this divisive bickering about the Mass forms or the music. These disputes over the music and which way the priest faces
Because Catholic schools were provided by the province, the parish never had to provide religious education so to parents it was just another school subject. The kids were taught in school, prepared for sacraments in school and parents were not involved. When denominational education was abolished 13 years ago, there was a scramble to find another way. We tried a home/parish program of regular catechesis but only one family checked that out and it came to nothing. Sacramental preparation fared better: we had several catechists trained by the diocesan catechetics coordinator, the order of sacraments was restored, parents had to be involved in the preparation because the lessons were given to the children AND their parents. For a few years that worked fine, even if the retention of the kids was not what we would have liked. Unfortunately when catechists moved away there was nobody willing to take their place. It all ended up on the shoulders of one woman, who did her best but eventually had had enough. Only one Pastor was really supportive of her efforts. The last two couldn’t have cared less. It took two years of no First Communion before someone stepped up to the plate, a mother with kids ready for the sacrament, but this person was given no preparation, just handed a book and let loose. Fortunately, she was a teacher but now that her children have made their First Communion she’s not intested in teaching that program any more. She may try to teach the Confirmation program.
In the meantime our bishop was given a second diocese in preparation for the suppression of our own, which spanned two provinces (Quebec & Newfoundland and Labrador). When that occurred a few years later, the parishes were realigned along geographic lines. The area within Quebec was divided between two dioceses in that province. Our area was merged with a diocese in Newfoundland and the resulting diocese renamed to reflect our area.
Our diocese, which had restored the order of the sacraments and offered Confirmation & First Communion at the age of 7, was merged with a diocese that had not restored the order and didn’t offer Confirmation until grade 10. Guess who lost out in that change? Now Confirmation is between grades 6 & 10. At the same time the Bishop was struggling with the fallout of an abuse scandal and most of his efforts seemed to center on keeping the diocese solvent.
Now we have a new bishop and I’m hoping that things will improve. Our new Pastor, whose name we should learn this weekend, has a major job on his hands. Ours is just one of three ‘self-sufficient’ parishes in our area. The rest are all funded by Catholic Missions In Canada.
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MarkInOregon
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I understand what you are saying. It is one thing to critique something but quite another just to call it names–and that’s what calling music “clown car music” is–simple name calling–not legitimate criticism. (I know you are not the one who used the phrase.) I would think as Catholics we could be more charitable in our criticism and that we could refrain from name calling, That’s all I am saying.
Well at our parish they do sing those songs like “On Eagles Wings” (not a song I particularly care for but one many of my fellow parishioners seem to like). We have a music issue filled with some 600 songs to choose from–including old hymns. In my experience the same people sing each week regardless of the song/hymn–I am sure those around me probably would prefer it if I did not attempt to sing. To claim coercion and that people have no choice seems a bit strong–if we only had 40 fairly modern songs to choose from then maybe I could see your point. And I don’t think most of the old hymns are of the quality of Mozart but then in my opinion little is as Mozart is the music I would take to the proverbial desert island.
There can be great beauty in all types of music just as there can be lousiness–just think of how much classical music was written and how little has actually stood the test of time and is listened to today. I guess what I object to is the idea: new = bad and old = good. Many seem to judge the worth of a song not on the music/tune but on when and by whom it was written and by what instrument it is played on.
Peace of Christ,
Mark
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clem456
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Quite a different culture! I am amazed to hear that your government at one time provided Catholic education?
Due to the small town atmosphere our parish is family centered. There are 3 and even 4 generations of families worshiping in the parish. Many young people stay in town after high school or college, although we have the same problem retaining them in the pews until they have families. This is what happened with my wife and I also as I fell away until we had the kids inour 30’s.
The catechesis program was developed by a married woman with children, who was absolutely wonderful. She is a former nun who had bad experiences with a traditional order, so left and got her degree in pastoral ministry. . She was very good at relating the faith to beginners and converts. She required every child receiving first communion or confirmation to bring the parents for classes in faith formation. She was masterful at getting laity excited about ministry.
We are blessed to have several families with contracting firms, so per capita we do have more resources than many other parishes.
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Ridgerunner
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I was not the one who called anything “clown car music”.
Undoubtedly, some parishes are different from others, and inculturation probably means something in all of it. If one was into “folk” music when young, one might like the Schutte, St. Louis Jesuits, etc, music that mimics that particular period music. If one grew up in the Bible Belt, even as a Catholic, one might like Southern Gospel because it’s so pervasive and one grew up hearing it. But some music like Mozart is good because it somehow corresponds with the internal melodizing people have. Some like Gregorian chant because it’s easy to follow and has a sort of inherent logic to it. Your mind knows what’s next by instinct and “wants” the melody to go there.
Widespread and genuine popularity over a long period of time is a pretty fair indicator of the quality of any work of art. Some hymns have that and some don’t. For those that don’t, like popular songs, they don’t have all that long a shelf life.
But I will admit that sometimes people like things because they’re period pieces and for little or no other reason. But that’s idiosyncratic. Some like one period; some another; some many and some none.
Regardless, it just isn’t 1975 anymore, and after 35 years, we ought to be moving on; the only exceptions being those that have passed the test of time on their own, of which, like any art of excellence, there aren’t many.
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Phemie
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Religious Education was guaranteed to Catholics with Confederation. Over time, some provinces stopped that so that at this point only Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan do so.
Unlike other provinces, NL didn’t have Catholic & Public schools. All our schools were religion based: Catholic, Integrated, Pentecostal & Salvation Army. In 1998 the Articles of Confederation were altered to establish non-denominational education. The kids still get ‘religion’ but it’s non-denominational.
In PEI, if it’s still the way it used to be when my kids attended school there, if the school wanted to offer Rel. Ed., it could. My kids attended a French school where most of the children were Catholic, so Catechism was part of the curriculum. I note that they still have a Mass for Graduates at that school so I can assume that they still offer Rel. Ed. too.
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MarkInOregon
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I know that and I thought I stated that. I was citing a phrase you quoted earlier as an example.
I guess I have never thought of the music of Schutte, St Louis Jesuits, etc. as “folk” music. Folk music is a specific genre in my mind and these artists music doesn’t fit that in my mind–I may have a very narrow definition of folk music while other may be throwing in anything played on a guitar. Mozart knew how to compose a tune–people like melody–something nearly all modern classical composers fail miserably at. Isn’t what you say about Mozart applicable to any good song or composition? Isn’t that what makes a good and lasting song?
Absolutely. I guess my posiition would be that some of these songs do pass that test – and that people will disagree which ones those are. I know what I like and it spans a fairly large and eclectic range. I guess I don’t feel it is up to me to tell people that what they think is good music – is garbage – afterall it might be my ear that is garbage. And I don’t understand why people feel like we are stuck in 1975 I don’t feel that in the music (and yes I was alive and listening to music in 1975) at mass. One of these days I may start a thread to examine various songs and the actual charges against them–just to see what it is that people find so horrible and offensive about them.
Happy listening and singing,
Mark
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Ridgerunner
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Never did I say that none of the 1970s songs is anything but horrible. Some aren’t. But a lot of them are, and they are never abandoned. They’re also arranged topically so that it’s very hard to avoid some of them if the music director is trying to match the songs to the day or the readings, which they all try to do.I know that and I thought I stated that. I was citing a phrase you quoted earlier as an example.
I guess I have never thought of the music of Schutte, St Louis Jesuits, etc. as “folk” music. Folk music is a specific genre in my mind and these artists music doesn’t fit that in my mind–I may have a very narrow definition of folk music while other may be throwing in anything played on a guitar. Mozart knew how to compose a tune–people like melody–something nearly all modern classical composers fail miserably at. Isn’t what you say about Mozart applicable to any good song or composition? Isn’t that what makes a good and lasting song?
Absolutely. I guess my posiition would be that some of these songs do pass that test – and that people will disagree which ones those are. I know what I like and it spans a fairly large and eclectic range. I guess I don’t feel it is up to me to tell people that what they think is good music – is garbage – afterall it might be my ear that is garbage. And I don’t understand why people feel like we are stuck in 1975 I don’t feel that in the music (and yes I was alive and listening to music in 1975) at mass. One of these days I may start a thread to examine various songs and the actual charges against them–just to see what it is that people find so horrible and offensive about them.
Happy listening and singing,
Mark
It’s like anything. Improvement is possible, but it never happens.
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Lochias
Guest
Ultimately, it all comes down to individual opinion.
You any many others have a problem with the 1970s songs, and I and many others don’t. If you don’t like what’s being played at your parish, maybe you could speak with the pastor and get a vote from the parish members, or something of that kind.In my parish, we’re almost dead-broke, and nobody has volunteered to step up and help us with the music as of yet. Until such time, we’ll play what we’re comfortable with singing and playing, or else the parish will simply have to do without. It’s all we can do.
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Ridgerunner
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Except, of course, that parishes vote with their voices, and I have, by the way, made better suggestions. Some have been followed, some haven’t. But when the music director ends up singing solo after solo, and always the same ones, that ought to tell more people than her that some songs just don’t have any appeal.Ultimately, it all comes down to individual opinion.
And again, why are we stuck in the 1970s? That music really is a genre of its own. It is incomprehensible to me that nobody can write a song well and hasn’t been able to do so for 35 years and more. It’s inertia that keeps this going. That and perhaps contracts keeping this stuff going.
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