Why the Trinity?

[Counterpoint]

Counterpoint:

What do you think the word “proceeds” means here?

The Holy Spirit is of the same substance/essence/being as the Father and the Son.

That’s what the word “proceeds” means?

“We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.” - Nicene Creed

Just FYI. Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son; Orthodox Christians believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

How do you know that?

If you are asking why I believe that the Catholic Church has been intrusted with the Truth of Divine Revelation I would say that this truth was instilled in me as a child and verified by experience, reinforced by the reasonableness of what the Church actually teaches, which is supprted by the reasonableness of the Scriptures, and finally supported by the fact that it seems reasonable to me that only God could have created the universe. The latter truth is clear to me simply form looking at the world and by the teachings of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas. Futher, the voice of conscience began speaking to me by the time I was eight - when no one had told me that certain things were wrong and other things were right.

Linus2nd

 

[Counterpoint]

Internal, intelligence and will.

strobertbellarmine.net/wilhelm_scannell_09.html

That article does not address what the term “proceeds” means when Catholics confess that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

 

[GaryTaylor]

what the term “proceeds” means

What do you think the word “proceeds” means here?

Twice- Internal, intelligence and will. In God the processions are not motion, or action, but intellectual emanation of the intelligible from Him who enunciates. Actions inherent in human generation are not considered in Divinity, there is no diversity of nature, nature remains the same, only diversity of persons in opposition to relations, which remain numerically at “one”.

Biblical- “From God I proceeded” John 8:24

Against Arius is was shown that in God there is “no” procession of “effect and cause” Otherwise it would follow the Son and HS are NOT God.

 

[Mike_Dye]

I for one find it quite sensible to rely on what the OP refers to as “blind faith”. I think it is quite reasonable. There is so much (in fact nearly everything) about the natural universe that we can’t explain and science can’t explain, yet we know that there are causes and effects. We moderns seem to want to worship at the altar of science even if science can’t reasonably explain what it knows to be true. Why? Well for one thing science gets it right a lot of the time, so it is reasonable to believe in scientific theory. Now if we admit that we can reasonably believe in what we theorize on in the natural world, how arrogant is it of us to demand a completely reasonable explanation regarding the supernatural.
I believe in an awful lot of what science teaches even though I don’t understand it because so often science gets it right. I believe in the Trinity, even though I don’t understand it because I find it quite reasonable to believe in the One who revealed the Trinity to us because he always gets it right.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The belief that “procession” is ad extra is heretical. The procession is ad intera, thus the mental word proceeds from the intellect. We are talking intellect not corporal.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Sorry I have yet to follow Della’s posts here. Of course the Spirit can and does reveal the truth to individuals and to the Church. But the Truth the Spirit reveals to the Church is the only knowledge we are required to adhere to. Private revelation is only for the benefit of the person to whom it is revealed, and here we have a case where the spirits must be tested. And to be accepted, they must never contadict a teaching of the Church or the Scriptures.

Linus2nd.

I finally read what Della wrote. Della is explaining God in Three Persons pretty much the way the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains it. My explanation does not use the word love. That is, essentially, the only difference. I did add that God can enlighten our intellects, " telling " us that these explanations are reasonable. This act on God’s part may be regarded as a practical grace. Now you may regard this as an intellectual " inspiration " coming from the Logos ( The Second Person ) specifically, or as coming from either the Father or the Holy Spirit. But in reality it comes from all Three, because God always operates through each.

There is no operation coming simply from the Essence ( Essence, Being, and Nature being equivalent terms here ) of God. Logically, all operations begin with the Father because He is eternally begetting the Son. But theologically, we would probably ascribe such " inspirations " as coming from the Son ( the Logos ). But there is no possibility of arriving at this knowledge through reason alone or without the Revelation God ( the Father ) has given or without the Church, to whom the Revelation has been given and through whom the Revelation is made known. The " inspiration " ( gift of grace ) each individual receives is given by the Son, through the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So you see that all three Persons are operating here. In no way is it the case that it is merely our intellects " discovering " this truth unaided. The three operations I have explained are always the source of our " inspiration . " We do not " discover " this great Truth, it is always Revealed.

If you have not read the Catechism of the Catholic Church I urge you to do so, since it, itself, is a great " practical " gift given to the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It will help you to understand the complete Truth the Logos has given us through the hand of the Father.

Linus2nd

 

[GaryTaylor]

If you have not read the Catechism of the Catholic Church I urge you to do so, since it, itself, is a great " practical " gift given to the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It will help you to understand the complete Truth the Logos has given us through the hand of the Father.

Amen,

 

[Della]

That’s what the word “proceeds” means?

“We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.” - Nicene Creed

GaryTaylor explained it best. I won’t try to improve on it, as if I could.

Just FYI. Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son; Orthodox Christians believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father.

I am well aware of what the Orthodox believe. We Catholics disagree, and I think for good reasons. They are free to believe whatever they want.

 

[Counterpoint]

GaryTaylor explained it best. I won’t try to improve on it, as if I could.

That’s unfortunate, because I didn’t understand anything he wrote. But that’s okay, because I have Wikipedia. And it has furnished me with a much clearer understanding of the theological concept of “procession.” It means that the “the Holy Spirit originates, has his cause for existence or being (manner of existence) from the Father alone” (source: Wikipedia: Filioque)

However, this presents me with a new problem. There doesn’t appear to be a substantive difference between the definitions of “procession” and “beggotten” (or “generation”).

 

[Della]

That’s unfortunate, because I didn’t understand anything he wrote. But that’s okay, because I have Wikipedia. And it has furnished me with a much clearer understanding of the theological concept of “procession.” It means that the “the Holy Spirit originates, has his cause for existence or being (manner of existence) from the Father alone” (source: Wikipedia: Filioque)

However, this presents me with a new problem. There doesn’t appear to be a substantive difference between the definitions of “procession” and “beggotten” (or “generation”).

We humans think in terms of the passage of time, so we need to use words like procession/begotten/generation. We simply can’t describe how a person can always be and yet have proceeded from. Even the word instantaneous gives the impression of the passage of time and that a thing was once one thing and then another.

What is being described by the word procession is merely that they are all the same essence and that they all flow into one another and are in complete sync with one another as they are in each other and of each other and always have been and ever shall be. As I wrote at the beginning of the thread, God simply is.

It’s like “Bam” GOD, not there was something else or nothing else and then there was God and then there was the Son and then there was the Spirit. God, one in three persons, always was that and always will be that for that is who and what he is. That he has revealed himself as Trinity to us is a gift and a blessing to us. It makes no difference to who and what he is if we understand it or not. We are trying to use our poor words and limited minds to express what is, actually, inexpressible.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It means that the “the Holy Spirit originates, has his cause for existence or being (manner of existence) from the Father alone” (source: Wikipedia: Filioque

I’m sorry my sincere apology, I’ll go slower.

The Holy Spirit is God and has no origin. The Catholic Church teaches that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son. Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

So much for Wiki-Pedia.

 

[Della]

I’m sorry my sincere apology, I’ll go slower.

The Holy Spirit is God and has no origin. The Catholic Church teaches that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son. Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

So much for Wiki-Pedia.

A much simpler, less exhausting explanation than my poor effort! And yes, Wikipedia definitely has its limitations. :yup:

 

[GaryTaylor]

Fourth Lateran Council, “it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds, each is God, whole and entire”.

Ambrose and Basil “We must confess there is only principle of the Holy Spirit”.

Jesus will send the Holy Spirit (the Advocate, the Helper) to teach the disciples what they need to know. John 14

co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial

 

[Counterpoint]

I’m sorry my sincere apology, I’ll go slower.

The Holy Spirit is God and has no origin. The Catholic Church teaches that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son. Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

So much for Wiki-Pedia.

What I presented was the teaching of Orthodox Christianity as explained by Vladimir Lossky.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What I presented was the teaching of Orthodox Christianity as explained by Vladimir Lossky.

And that’s suppose to mean exactly what???

Its up to you to defend it as you posted it as if you believe it as a known?. Or you don’t know? How did the Holy Spirit originate?

Obviously I disagree.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“I believe…in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.”

one substance with the Father- consubstantial

newadvent.org/cathen/07449a.htm

(Gr. homoousion - from homos, same, and ousia, essence; Latin consubstantialem, of one essence or substance), the word used by the Council of Nicaea (325) to express the Divinity of Christ.

 

[Counterpoint]

We humans think in terms of the passage of time, so we need to use words like procession/begotten/generation. We simply can’t describe how a person can always be and yet have proceeded from. Even the word instantaneous gives the impression of the passage of time and that a thing was once one thing and then another.

I’m not the one here who has a problem accepting that something can be eternally (eternally in the sense of timelessly, not everlastingly in time) caused or created. (It’s a logical relationship, not a temporal one. There is nothing illogical about that.) What I have a problem with is that some here refuse to acknowledge that to be eternally begotten is to be eternally procreated.

What is being described by the word procession is merely that they are all the same essence and that they all flow into one another and are in complete sync with one another as they are in each other and of each other and always have been and ever shall be. As I wrote at the beginning of the thread, God simply is

I don’t have a problem accepting that “the Holy Spirit (eternally) originates, (eternally) has his cause for existence or being (manner of existence) from the Father” - provided that there is a legitimate metaphysical reason to make such a postulation. (And apparently, Orthodox theologians think there is).

 

[Counterpoint]

And that’s suppose to mean exactly what???

It means exactly what it says.

Its up to you to defend it as you posted it as if you believe it as a known?. Or you don’t know? How did the Holy Spirit originate?

I’m not necessarily defending it. I’m simply stating that this is how Orthodox Christianity interprets “procession.” (And I have already provided documentation to substantiate that claim.)

 

[Della]

I’m not the one here who has a problem accepting that something can be eternally (eternally in the sense of timelessly, not everlastingly in time) caused or created. (It’s a logical relationship, not a temporal one. There is nothing illogical about that.) What I have a problem with is that some here refuse to acknowledge that to be eternally begotten is to be eternally procreated.

Who has denied that? Not me. Not only eternally procreated, but procreating. God eternally begets within himself who he is in three persons.

I don’t have a problem accepting that “the Holy Spirit (eternally) originates, (eternally) has his cause for existence or being (manner of existence) from the Father” - provided that there is a legitimate metaphysical reason to make such a postulation. (And apparently, Orthodox theologians think there is).

Then there is no further need for discussion.