Why this Jew prefers the 1955 Good Friday prayer

[Saint_Gemma]

While the intent of His Holiness Pope John XXIII and His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI in revising the prayer for the conversion of the Jews was to make the prayer immune to charges of anti-Semitism, I think that the 1955 version is not anti-Semitic at all, while the 1961 and 2008 versions contain traces of it. The 1961 and 2008 versions of the prayer call for the conversion of all Jews, as if there were no Catholic Jews, while the 1955 only calls for the conversion of faithless Jews. This upsets me because a lot of anti-Semitic people think that all so-called Catholic Jews are infiltrators, and that therefore there are no Catholic Jews. Obviously, the aforementioned popes did not think this, but the 1961 and 2008 prayers could be interpreted this way. The 2002 prayer is even worse, as it acts as if we should only get a second-class plan for salvation, but everyone else should receive the fullness of truth!

While obedient Roman Catholics must now either use the 2002 prayer or the 2008 prayer, I hope that someday the entire Roman Rite will use the 1955 prayer.

 

[HashemEchad]

No fair! I didn’t see any option for someone to click “None”!

The reason why so many think Jews who apostasized to Catholicism are infiltrators, is because historically, many of them WERE.

But remember, in times past many Jews were forced to convert to Catholicism under pain of death, and so you cannot expect that they joined the religion with any great love in their hearts for it. Perhaps they tried to destroy it from within as revenge for being told that if they did not convert, they would lose their lives, their families, their homes, etc

My mother descended from Spanish Jews who were forced to convert or lose everything they had, and so they did it, but kept being Jewish in secret. I would not blame them in the least if they did things to harm the church after being forced to convert like that!

I will say that in my years of working to get Jewish kids out of cults and nonJewish religions that ensnared them, out of a couple hundred I’ve met/worked with, about 5 or 6 had become Catholics. And in almost every case, they adhered to the most traditional form of Catholicism. I always wondered why this was, then realized they probably were trying to “prove” their sincerity, since Jews who become Catholics are so often accused of doing it just to infiltrate. The “marrano” (converso) Jews in Spain used to do the same thing: they would try to be “more Catholic than the Pope” just to alleviate any suspicion. They also would adopt names that were uber-Catholic (as in “De la Cruz”, “of the Cross”), for the same reason.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

The reason why so many think Jews who apostasized to Catholicism are infiltrators, is because historically, many of them WERE.

But remember, in times past many Jews were forced to convert to Catholicism under pain of death, and so you cannot expect that they joined the religion with any great love in their hearts for it. Perhaps they tried to destroy it from within as revenge for being told that if they did not convert, they would lose their lives, their families, their homes, etc

I know of many instances where Jews were killed for being Jewish, but none where those who converted to Catholicism were spared. Certainly during the most infamous and extensive anti-Jewish pogrom, those who converted to Catholicism were not safe from being murdered by the Nazis – otherwise Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Saint Edith Stein) would not have been killed at Auschwitz. Would you please supply me with information from a reliable source about these atrocities where Jews were forced to convert?

 

[HashemEchad]

I know of many instances where Jews were killed for being Jewish, but none where those who converted to Catholicism were spared. Certainly during the most infamous and extensive anti-Jewish pogrom, those who converted to Catholicism were not safe from being murdered by the Nazis – otherwise Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Saint Edith Stein) would not have been killed at Auschwitz. Would you please supply me with information from a reliable source about these atrocities where Jews were forced to convert?

Just one of many links (from a search you can also do, at Google):

home.earthlink.net/~benven/annivers.html

My mother’s family were originally Spanish Jews forced to either convert to Catholicism or be expelled/killed. This order was put into effect by the monarchs of Spain, in 1492.

I’m surprised you are not aware of it. Ever hear of the Edict of Expulsion of the Jews of Spain, of 1492? Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition?

As for Edith Stein, the sad part of her case was: she chose to apostasize from Judaism, yet she died because she was of Jewish ancestry. There is NO escape, once God makes a person a Jew. They can run, but they cannot hide from their etenal destiny.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Just one of many links (from a search you can also do, at Google):

home.earthlink.net/~benven/annivers.html

My mother’s family were originally Spanish Jews forced to either convert to Catholicism or be expelled/killed. This order was put into effect by the monarchs of Spain, in 1492.

I’m surprised you are not aware of it. Ever hear of the Edict of Expulsion of the Jews of Spain, of 1492? Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition?

As for Edith Stein, the sad part of her case was: she chose to apostasize from Judaism, yet she died because she was of Jewish ancestry. There is NO escape, once God makes a person a Jew. They can run, but they cannot hide from their etenal destiny.

Thank you for telling me about this. That was horrible! People shouldn’t be forced into acting like they believe something that they really do not. I hope that you know that this goes against the teachings of Saint Thomas Aquinas.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Just one of many links (from a search you can also do, at Google):

home.earthlink.net/~benven/annivers.html

My mother’s family were originally Spanish Jews forced to either convert to Catholicism or be expelled/killed. This order was put into effect by the monarchs of Spain, in 1492.

I’m surprised you are not aware of it. Ever hear of the Edict of Expulsion of the Jews of Spain, of 1492? Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition?

As for Edith Stein, the sad part of her case was: she chose to apostasize from Judaism, yet she died because she was of Jewish ancestry. There is NO escape, once God makes a person a Jew. They can run, but they cannot hide from their etenal destiny.

I know that this sounds weird, but I really like how you are not afraid to use terms like apostatize. It shows a willingness to offend people if necessary that most modern-day Catholics lack.

 

[JReducation]

I know that this sounds weird, but I really like how you are not afraid to use terms like apostatize. **It shows a willingness to offend people if necessary **that most modern-day Catholics lack.

Bold is mine

I don’t see how a willingness to offend people is admirable. In fact, it is contrary to what all of our saints have taught us.

There are cases when people are offended as a seondary effect of something that is said. That’s very different. The intent is not to offend. In such situations there is no willingness to offend, because there is not intent to offend.

I’m not sure that the poster is willing to offend. He is using a form of speech than can offend, but it does not appear to me that this is his intent.

I too am a convert from Judaism to Catholicism. When my parents used this term, they did not intend to offend. It is the proper term for one who leaves his faith for another. My parents loved me and my children dearly and would never willingly offend us.

A willingness to offend is contrary to both Jewish and Christian faith. Accidental offense is just that, a accident that occurs when certain words are spoken to mean something specific that should not be taken offensively.

JR

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Bold is mine

I don’t see how a willingness to offend people is admirable. In fact, it is contrary to what all of our saints have taught us.

There are cases when people are offended as a seondary effect of something that is said. That’s very different. The intent is not to offend. In such situations there is no willingness to offend, because there is not intent to offend.

I’m not sure that the poster is willing to offend. He is using a form of speech than can offend, but it does not appear to me that this is his intent.

I too am a convert from Judaism to Catholicism. When my parents used this term, they did not intend to offend. It is the proper term for one who leaves his faith for another. My parents loved me and my children dearly and would never willingly offend us.

A willingness to offend is contrary to both Jewish and Christian faith. Accidental offense is just that, a accident that occurs when certain words are spoken to mean something specific that should not be taken offensively.

JR

That is why I said willingness to offend if necessary. When I said that many Catholics are unwilling to do that, I meant things such as saying that EENS is not true so that ones non-Catholic friends will not be offended. Sometimes one need to call an apostate an apostate.

 

[rosebudsal]

I know of many instances where Jews were killed for being Jewish, but none where those who converted to Catholicism were spared. Certainly during the most infamous and extensive anti-Jewish pogrom, those who converted to Catholicism were not safe from being murdered by the Nazis – otherwise Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Saint Edith Stein) would not have been killed at Auschwitz. Would you please supply me with information from a reliable source about these atrocities where Jews were forced to convert?

Adding to some of what “HashemEchad” said. Google Sephardic Jews and you’ll get a whole wealth of information.
Many, many of the founding families of New Mexico are descended from those Jews (or Crypto Jews or Conversos) who fled Spain after the expulsion of 1492. They settled in Mexico for a while and then when the Inquisition followed, they came up to the northern most part of the territory, (NM) through time, however, most of these families became Catholic and stayed Catholic and much of the Jewish heritage was lost. Many are discovering their Jewish pasts and some, though very few, always knew about it. Some never adopted Catholicism and there are a lot of little towns with “protestants” who were really Jewish as well.

It’s all a really interesting history. At one time, in Spain the three major religions lived in a quasi-semblance of peace for quite a while.

 

[JReducation]

That is why I said willingness to offend if necessary. When I said that many Catholics are unwilling to do that, I meant things such as saying that EENS is not true so that ones non-Catholic friends will not be offended. Sometimes one need to call an apostate an apostate.

I think what you’re saying “if necessary” is the key. It’s not always necessary to call someone an apostate. In fact, most Protestants, Jews and Orthodox are not apostates. They never left the Church. They were born into their specific faith. In those cases the use of the term is completely unnecessary, because it’s not applicable, neither is the term heretic.

To be an apostate or a heretic you must be the one who apostasizes, not your ancestors.

There is a tendency among the conservative right, not just Catholics either, to call everyone who is not one of them a heretic or an apostate, without first determining if the term applies.

Also, if one can say the same thing using other words, when one knows that one will offend, charity demands that we do so. Charity is the greatest of all virtues.

When scripture tells us that in the end only charity will remain, it reminds us that after this life, there will be no more need for faith, because we have traveled our journey. Nor will there be a need for hope, for that which we hoped for is now a thing of the past. The only thing that is left is love, because God is love and he does not go away.

My point here is that we must treat others with the same love that God treats them. God invites us to sin no more. On very rare occasions in the OT and the NT does God call us sinners. He usually calls us stupid (sheep). I’m not sure which term I would have preferred. LOL

JR

 

[HashemEchad]

When I use the word “apostasize”, I do so because that is the normal and usual term used by Orthodox Jews. The intent is not to insult, but to use an accurate term.

Actually, we would say it in Hebrew, which is shmad; I translated it figuring no one here would know what shmad meant.

I am not surprised that a Jew who became Catholic did not know of the forced conversions of Jews to Catholicism. I find that the Jews who apostasize are often woefully very ignorant of their Jewish heritage, faith and history.

This is one reason why I could never convert to Christianity: I am too fully aware of the history, and it would be the ultimate slap in the face to my ancestors, some of whom chose death rather than conversion (though other did convert and stayed Jewish in secret.)

 

[Saint_Gemma]

When I use the word “apostasize”, I do so because that is the normal and usual term used by Orthodox Jews. The intent is not to insult, but to use an accurate term.

Actually, we would say it in Hebrew, which is shmad; I translated it figuring no one here would know what shmad meant.

I am not surprised that a Jew who became Catholic did not know of the forced conversions of Jews to Catholicism. I find that the Jews who apostasize are often woefully very ignorant of their Jewish heritage, faith and history.

This is one reason why I could never convert to Christianity: I am too fully aware of the history, and it would be the ultimate slap in the face to my ancestors, some of whom chose death rather than conversion (though other did convert and stayed Jewish in secret.)

What does the fact that some governments that called themselves Catholic forced Jews to pretend to be Catholic have to do with whether or not Jesus is the Messiah?

 

[sneakers]

Bold is mine

I don’t see how a willingness to offend people is admirable. In fact, it is contrary to what all of our saints have taught us.

JR

Replace the words “not afraid to offend, if necessary” with “not afraid to tell the truth”.

I wish more priests would be “not afraid to offend” by telling the truth about sin in their sermons. Sometimes it is necessary to offend. They are afraid to say “sex outside of marriage is a sin” or “abortion is a sin” or “living together unmarried is a sin” or “the practice of homosexuality is a sin”. Those are offensive to some folks sitting in the pews, so they don’t just come out and say so. They smooth over such things in order not to offend anybody, but their job is to teach the truth as given to us in the bible and by our tradition. Their job is to save souls, not to coddle us and make us feel good about ourselves.

respectfully,
sneakers

 

[JReducation]

Replace the words “not afraid to offend, if necessary” with “not afraid to tell the truth”.

I wish more priests would be “not afraid to offend” by telling the truth about sin in their sermons. Sometimes it is necessary to offend. They are afraid to say “sex outside of marriage is a sin” or “abortion is a sin” or “living together unmarried is a sin” or “the practice of homosexuality is a sin”. Those are offensive to some folks sitting in the pews, so they don’t just come out and say so. They smooth over such things in order not to offend anybody, but their job is to teach the truth as given to us in the bible and by our tradition. Their job is to save souls, not to coddle us and make us feel good about ourselves.

respectfully,
sneakers

I have no idea where you go to chuch. But in our parish and other parishes where I have lived, there is no such a dumming down of truth. It is taught with charity and clarity and explained very well.

JR

 

[JReducation]

When I use the word “apostasize”, I do so because that is the normal and usual term used by Orthodox Jews. The intent is not to insult, but to use an accurate term.

Actually, we would say it in Hebrew, which is shmad; I translated it figuring no one here would know what shmad meant.

I am not surprised that a Jew who became Catholic did not know of the forced conversions of Jews to Catholicism. I find that the Jews who apostasize are often woefully very ignorant of their Jewish heritage, faith and history.

This is one reason why I could never convert to Christianity: I am too fully aware of the history, and it would be the ultimate slap in the face to my ancestors, some of whom chose death rather than conversion (though other did convert and stayed Jewish in secret.)

I am a conver to Catholicism, but not by force. I converted by choice. And I do know the term shmad very well. This was a term that my parents used when I told them I was going to become a Catholic.

I am also very familiar with the forced conversions, which were not really conversions, because the individuals were put against the wall. This is history. I’m not sure how anyone who has studied world history is unaware of this. This was not common just with Jews, but with Asians, Native Americans and African slaves.

As to a lack of awareness of our history and how our ancestors died for their faith, I am going to disagree with. I grew up in a very religious family. We are sephardics from Spain and have been Reformed since our family came to the Americas. To me it was not a matter of not knowing our history, heritage and a lack of appreciation. On the contrary, I love my Jewish heritage. Even though my household is the only household in our family who is Catholic, we have a wondeful relationship with our family.

My family plays an important part in all of our Christian celebrations and we in all of the Jewish celebrations. When my mother was alive my children sat for hours as she told them of the horros that Jews suffered in Europe during WW II. Today, my children are now young adults and are very big supporters of any organization that provides services to the survivors. They are also very involved in the Jewish-Catholic dialogue at the university.

I became a Catholic because what I saw in the Capuchin-Franciscan friars who educated me and protected me from anti-semiticism aroused my curiosity about St. Francis. I started to read about him. I fell in love with his spirituality. That drew me into the study of teachings of Jesus Christ which St. Francis taught and lived in such a simple and convincing way. As I studied Jesus I became more and more aware that he is truly the Son of God.

I had to grapple with the singularity of God, which I had learned in my youth. I had to ask myself how could there be three gods, when we know there is only one God. That pointed me in the direction of philosophy. There I discovered something that I had never considered, the difference between nature and person.

When I fimished my BS in math, I went on to study theology and philosophy. I arrived at the conclusion that Jesus was not in conflict with Judaism, because there is only one God, as there is only one Divine nature. What Jesus was talking about was that there are three persons that form a community of love within one Divine nature. In this case, the Jewish faith is not violated. Because there is only one God, as it was revealed to Abraham. And this God lives in a communion of love within his divine nature.

This made sense to me. I could see how God could be love, as he is a singular communion on love, not three false gods.

I was also very attracted by how similar the martydom of the Christians and the Jews is. To give one’s life for one’s faith in the one true God is no small matter. This gave me another point to consider. We (Jews) had given brith to a community of believers who gave their lives for their faith. The same as our anscestors had done.

I realized that the separation between the Jews and Christians had more to do with a misunderstanding of the Trinity and the influence of the Gentiles on certain Christian externals. I also understood that the antagonism between Jews and Christians was not so much about faith, as it was about power.

Unfortunately, human beings tend to drag anything they can into the mix when they are struggling for power and control. This is a sad state of affairs when that happens.

Hopefully, as Benedict XVI and Rabbi Klenicki who teaches Catholic theology at the Angelicum seminary in Rome have said, the more we dialogue the more we will understand each other.

JR

 

[rosebudsal]

I am a conver to Catholicism, but not by force. I converted by choice. And I do know the term shmad very well. This was a term that my parents used when I told them I was going to become a Catholic.

I am also very familiar with the forced conversions, which were not really conversions, because the individuals were put against the wall. This is history. I’m not sure how anyone who has studied world history is unaware of this. This was not common just with Jews, but with Asians, Native Americans and African slaves.

As to a lack of awareness of our history and how our ancestors died for their faith, I am going to disagree with. I grew up in a very religious family. We are sephardics from Spain and have been Reformed since our family came to the Americas. To me it was not a matter of not knowing our history, heritage and a lack of appreciation. On the contrary, I love my Jewish heritage. Even though my household is the only household in our family who is Catholic, we have a wondeful relationship with our family.

My family plays an important part in all of our Christian celebrations and we in all of the Jewish celebrations. When my mother was alive my children sat for hours as she told them of the horros that Jews suffered in Europe during WW II. Today, my children are now young adults and are very big supporters of any organization that provides services to the survivors. They are also very involved in the Jewish-Catholic dialogue at the university.

I became a Catholic because what I saw in the Capuchin-Franciscan friars who educated me and protected me from anti-semiticism aroused my curiosity about St. Francis. I started to read about him. I fell in love with his spirituality. That drew me into the study of teachings of Jesus Christ which St. Francis taught and lived in such a simple and convincing way. As I studied Jesus I became more and more aware that he is truly the Son of God.

I had to grapple with the singularity of God, which I had learned in my youth. I had to ask myself how could there be three gods, when we know there is only one God. That pointed me in the direction of philosophy. There I discovered something that I had never considered, the difference between nature and person.

When I fimished my BS in math, I went on to study theology and philosophy. I arrived at the conclusion that Jesus was not in conflict with Judaism, because there is only one God, as there is only one Divine nature. What Jesus was talking about was that there are three persons that form a community of love within one Divine nature. In this case, the Jewish faith is not violated. Because there is only one God, as it was revealed to Abraham. And this God lives in a communion of love within his divine nature.

This made sense to me. I could see how God could be love, as he is a singular communion on love, not three false gods.

I was also very attracted by how similar the martydom of the Christians and the Jews is. To give one’s life for one’s faith in the one true God is no small matter. This gave me another point to consider. We (Jews) had given brith to a community of believers who gave their lives for their faith. The same as our anscestors had done.

I realized that the separation between the Jews and Christians had more to do with a misunderstanding of the Trinity and the influence of the Gentiles on certain Christian externals. I also understood that the antagonism between Jews and Christians was not so much about faith, as it was about power.

Unfortunately, human beings tend to drag anything they can into the mix when they are struggling for power and control. This is a sad state of affairs when that happens.

Hopefully, as Benedict XVI and Rabbi Klenicki who teaches Catholic theology at the Angelicum seminary in Rome have said, the more we dialogue the more we will understand each other.

JR

Thanks for sharing your story. I know on one side of my family, I have Sephardic ancestry but my family has lost all ties to it. We’ve been Catholic for generations and it’s the faith I choose to continue to practice for so many reasons besides just being born into it. However, I wish I knew more about my family’s Sephardic Jewish ancestry which was lost hundreds of years ago because I think it’s important to remember and acknowledge the past too.

 

[HashemEchad]

What does the fact that some governments that called themselves Catholic forced Jews to pretend to be Catholic have to do with whether or not Jesus is the Messiah?

I know he was not the messiah for theological, doctrinal and Biblical reasons, so the persecutions aret really not my main reason for not believing in him. But the fact that so many Catholics tortured and killed Jews in his name, trying to force us to convert, adds to the bad taste, let’s put it that way.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

I know he was not the messiah for theological, doctrinal and Biblical reasons, so the persecutions aret really not my main reason for not believing in him. But the fact that so many Catholics tortured and killed Jews in his name, trying to force us to convert, adds to the bad taste, let’s put it that way.

What are your reasons for believing that Jesus was not the messiah?

 

[Freshman88]

I agree with Fr. Z’s assessment of the new 2008 prayer. It is the first sign of life in EF, it is being brought back into organic growth.

I fear too many traditionalist want to keep the EF frozen. I would rather see more authentic growth, it proves to me that the Vatican has the best of intentions for the EF.

 

[HashemEchad]

What are your reasons for believing that Jesus was not the messiah?

Just click on the second link in my sig line to get the full picture. Its all the same info I’d tell you, but with a lot less typing for me!