Why this Jew prefers the 1955 Good Friday prayer

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The third Temple will be restored; this is central to traditional Jewish teaching. In fact, efforts are underway even as we speak. šŸ™‚
Okay - so your understanding of the Messiah is that he’ll bring back animal sacrifice in a Third Temple - is this correct?

But I’m still wondering - if good deeds alone and distinctly can attone for sin, why was such a pinacle of importance placed on animal sacrifice - and why the effort and the belief in it’s return in the Temple - even as you describe it, ā€œcentralā€ to tradtional Jewish teaching?

And are there any animal sacrifices going on now? Or does this absolutely requre a specific physical Temple in a specific geographic location?

In the time being - in the here and now - are your sins attoned for by your good deeds? And if so, what is to be accomplished or gained by the furture animal sacrifices (since you describe it as ā€œcentralā€) in this Third Temple?

I’m trying to gain a perspective of your understanding of the present - because what really facinates me is your understanding of the future - the ā€œend gameā€ so to speak. That will come later. First these questions.

Thanks and God bless,

Dies Irae
 
Animal sacrifices and non-animal sacrifices and offerings BOTH atone for sin in Judaism, and always have…but when we are not able to do one (because, as you said, animal sacrifices need a physical location), we do the other. Its never been only one kind of method for effecting sin atonement. Even Leviticus states that Jews are not to eat any manner of blood because God has given it to us to make AN atonement for sin. It does not say ā€œTHE atonementā€.

As for the plurality of majesty, this is a device in the Hebrew language which is often used as a way to denote God’s extreme majesty, that He rules ALL, EVERYTHING, and controls ALL things. It doesn’t imply (as Christians think) more than one person.

Misunderstandings like this happen when nonJews enter a religion which is an offshoot of a much older one, without knowing the full details of the teachings of the mother religion. 🤷
 
No. God is a Unity, meaning He is one person. However, his MAJESTY is often described in Hebrew as being plural. Its a Kabbalistic concept that is often hard for many Jews (let alone nonJews) to understand.
Hashem I’m not sure I will argue about this with you anymore as you have your own way of interpreting scripture so I bid you Blessings:)
 
Hashem I’m not sure I will argue about this with you anymore as you have your own way of interpreting scripture so I bid you Blessings:)
Actually, its not ā€œmy own wayā€, its the way that traditional Judaism has used for thousands of years.

we’re not Johnny-come-latelies…we’ve been understanding our own Scriptures this way for the past 3,500 years.
 
Actually, its not ā€œmy own wayā€, its the way that traditional Judaism has used for thousands of years.

we’re not Johnny-come-latelies…we’ve been understanding our own Scriptures this way for the past 3,500 years.
OK:) Agreed! As a Catholic I am very greatfull to Judaism.
In Christ’s Love
 
As for why I’m here, I found this forum a few months ago after the death of my mother in March. She had once been a Catholic, and converted to Orthodox Judaism in 1944.

I was reminiscing about her with family, and remembered some old Holy Week legends she’d told me from her childhood. I decided to research them to find out their origin, and that was how Google led me here.
Firstly, my condolences.

I find the reality your mother’s conversion (especially in that particular era) and the mention of legends both intriguing and fascinating. Would you be willing to share a bit more about what she had to say, along with her reasons for and experience of conversion?
 
Firstly, my condolences.

I find the reality your mother’s conversion (especially in that particular era) and the mention of legends both intriguing and fascinating. Would you be willing to share a bit more about what she had to say, along with her reasons for and experience of conversion?
I didn’t know my mom as a Catholic; I never knew anything about her religious past until my teen years, when I became interested in genealogy and started digging into the family past.

She told me that she never ā€œfelt Catholicā€, in that she never could understand the trinity belief, or the belief that Jesus was divine. She said she always looked at it as, ā€œThe Father is God, and Jesus is His sonā€. Based on what I now know of genuine Christian belief, it seems to me in retrospect that my mother never really understood or believed the Christian concept of Jesus being divine, or the belief in a trinity.

She attended Catholic school, and Mass, and received her first holy communion…but she said she never felt like she ā€œbelongedā€ when it came to Catholicism.

Ironically, it was something a nun at school had once said to her, about ā€œJews killing Christā€, that made her curious about Jews. She decided to look them up, and was fascinated with what she learned. She said she saw Judaism as an option for someone like her, who believed in God but not Jesus or the Catholic church.

She contacted an Orthodox rabbi, and after a LOT of rejection (Jewish Law requires rabbis to turn away potential converts three times to test their sincerity, since we do not really seek out converts), she underwent a course of study and went through a conversion to Judaism.

She met my dad a few years later, married him, and I was born about 15 or so years after that (I have an older sister as well.)

The finishing touch to all this was what I uncovered in the 1980s with the help of a more-experienced genealogist cousin: my mother has Jewish ancestry on both sides of her family, dating back to the time of the Spanish Inquisition.

Her family originated in Toledo, Spain, and were told to either become Catholic or be expelled, in 1492. They were among the Spanish Jews expelled. Fromt here they went to Sicily and southern Italy, but not long after that, the Spanish Inquisition caught up with the Jews who fled there (Sicily and southern Italy were to come under Spanish rule later, which is why).

They finally decided to convert outwardly, just so they would not have to flee again, but kept practicing Judaism in secret. This also explained why my maternal grandmother praqcticed so many Jewish customs, refused to eat pork, and was terrified of crucifixes (she refused to have one in her home, and insisted one not be placed on her coffin when she died.)

So I think that history might explain how and why my mom became drawn to Judaism…because genetically, she was Jewish all along.

There is a saying in Spanish, which translated means, ā€œThe blood cries out!ā€ I think that applies to Jews forced to convert, who later rediscover their faith.

This kind of thing seems to happen a lot: I remember reading a book called Turbulent Souls by Stephen J Dubner. His parents had willingly converted to Catholicism from Judaism, had 8 children (him being the youngest), and many years later, he discovered his Jewish heritage via genealogy, and ended up returning to (Orthodox) Judaism. So it seems that even when a Jew sincerely converts to Catholicism, his ancestry is such that his descendants often end up returning to the Judaism they gave up.
 
A lot of Hispanic Catholics in Northern New Mexico have similar feelings about Catholicism as your mother. They’ve been outwardly Catholic all their lives, but not really practicing or feeling Catholic. Often they don’t really know why, it’s just a feeling.

So many of the early settlers here were Spanish Jews fleeing the Inquisition. What’s interesting is when the people of these families find out they were descended from the Sephardic Jews of Spain, they understand why Catholicism didn’t really fit for them.

There are also those who embrace Catholicism but acknowledge their Jewish past. There are some who won’t or can’t believe it. It’s all very interesting. I come for a very strong Catholic family, but on one side, we’re pretty certain we were descended from those early settlers who were Jewish.

I’m rambling and not really adding to the discussion.
 
I’m rambling and not really adding to the discussion.
Actually, I think you are adding by confirming the reality of a certain sensibility about tradition, which is somehow passed on through the generations and cultures, tying us together and giving a sense of identity in life and living. This is something which gets fogged over and lost too frequently today (especially in the United States.) Still there is a reality to that Spanish saying (which I’d like to hear in the original language, also, actually), ā€œThe blood cries out!ā€ I think that this is true in so many ways.
 
A lot of Hispanic Catholics in Northern New Mexico have similar feelings about Catholicism as your mother. They’ve been outwardly Catholic all their lives, but not really practicing or feeling Catholic. Often they don’t really know why, it’s just a feeling.

So many of the early settlers here were Spanish Jews fleeing the Inquisition. What’s interesting is when the people of these families find out they were descended from the Sephardic Jews of Spain, they understand why Catholicism didn’t really fit for them.

There are also those who embrace Catholicism but acknowledge their Jewish past. There are some who won’t or can’t believe it. It’s all very interesting. I come for a very strong Catholic family, but on one side, we’re pretty certain we were descended from those early settlers who were Jewish.

I’m rambling and not really adding to the discussion.
What you said in your first paragraph sounds exactly what my mom used to say to me, so yes, you’re right! My mom also used to say some other things (rather minor, silly things, really), like, ā€œWell, also the incense they used during Mass used to make me pass out!ā€ 😃

My cousin Joe, who lives in Nevada, is the more-experienced genealogist from my mom’s side of the family who did most of the research which uncovered her converso past. He was a practicing Catholic, and he is going through an identity crisis because of our discoveries…he said he asked his priest, ā€œAm I Jewish or am I Catholic?ā€ I feel bad for him because he feels very confused now.

I have to admit something…ever since I made this discovery, I have felt a lot of anger toward Ferdinand and Isabella, the former monarchs of Spain who instituted the Spanish Inquisition.

What right did they have to disrupt entire families, force conversions, torture innocent people, and cause my ancestors to spend 500 years not knowing what the heck they really were? What gave them the right to do that to my family, my people?

Jews in Spain had a long and glorious history under the Moors. Jews and Muslims got along well, and there were advances made in science, mathematics, learning. It was Spain’s Golden Age.

All of that ended when the Christians conquered Spain and forced Jews and Muslims to convert or be driven out…and then tortured and killed any who ā€˜relapsed’ after forced conversions.

What gave them the right to do that, to disrupt and confuse families for hundreds of years?
 
Bold is mine

I don’t see how a willingness to offend people is admirable. In fact, it is contrary to what all of our saints have taught us.

There are cases when people are offended as a seondary effect of something that is said. That’s very different. The intent is not to offend. In such situations there is no willingness to offend, because there is not intent to offend.

I’m not sure that the poster is willing to offend. He is using a form of speech than can offend, but it does not appear to me that this is his intent.

I too am a convert from Judaism to Catholicism. When my parents used this term, they did not intend to offend. It is the proper term for one who leaves his faith for another. My parents loved me and my children dearly and would never willingly offend us.

A willingness to offend is contrary to both Jewish and Christian faith. Accidental offense is just that, a accident that occurs when certain words are spoken to mean something specific that should not be taken offensively.

JR šŸ™‚
QUESTION FOR YOU: Do you believe Catholics should actively seek to convert (through the Holy Spirit of course) Jews to become formal members of the Catholic church?
 
QUESTION FOR YOU: Do you believe Catholics should actively seek to convert (through the Holy Spirit of course) Jews to become formal members of the Catholic church?
I’d like to ask you and all Christians a question: do you believe it is prudent to keep hammering away at Jews to convert, after they have made it very clear they are not interested in what you are proselytizing?

My biggest problem is Christians who just won’t take no for an answer…its resulted in oversaturation for me, regarding Christianity. IOW I’ve heard the message SO much, that it has long since become meaningless.

So, do you think it is wise to keep plugging away even though you are speaking to closed ears?
 
I think Hebrew Catholics (I know a couple) consider it a **completion **of their Jewish faith, rather than a conversion concept.
To get back to the topic, why does every think that this Good Friday prayer has been changed so much? šŸ™‚
 
What you said in your first paragraph sounds exactly what my mom used to say to me, so yes, you’re right! My mom also used to say some other things (rather minor, silly things, really), like, ā€œWell, also the incense they used during Mass used to make me pass out!ā€ 😃
I love the incense used in church, no where else though. It can be over done I’ll admit.
My cousin Joe, who lives in Nevada, is the more-experienced genealogist from my mom’s side of the family who did most of the research which uncovered her converso past. He was a practicing Catholic, and he is going through an identity crisis because of our discoveries…he said he asked his priest, ā€œAm I Jewish or am I Catholic?ā€ I feel bad for him because he feels very confused now.
So many Hispanic Catholics who discover their Jewish roots feel this way. For me, it’s a feeling more than known fact that my ancestors were once Jewish because I haven’t done all the research nor tested my dad’s DNA. I’m a Catholic (was baptized as a baby but didn’t go to church for years and years. I’m back by choice). It’s what I believe, but I don’t and won’t try to force it upon others.
I have to admit something…ever since I made this discovery, I have felt a lot of anger toward Ferdinand and Isabella, the former monarchs of Spain who instituted the Spanish Inquisition.
What right did they have to disrupt entire families, force conversions, torture innocent people, and cause my ancestors to spend 500 years not knowing what the heck they really were? What gave them the right to do that to my family, my people?
That really saddens me. I really don’t know how to answer you. It shames me too, as being of Spanish descent and Catholic.
Jews in Spain had a long and glorious history under the Moors. Jews and Muslims got along well, and there were advances made in science, mathematics, learning. It was Spain’s Golden Age.
It’s so sad that so much was lost. There was 700 years of relative peace in Spain. All that tolerance was lost. You know what I find interesting about living where I live? It’s that we live with that kind of tolerance and multicultural diversity that once existed in Spain. And Spain has changed a lot in 500 years. I know if I ever left America for what ever reason, I’d want to go live there.

I really don’t know. I wish I had answers. I think it was more greed and avarice than religion, but done under the guise of religion. It was wrong. I wish that history would stop repeating itself.
 
Animal sacrifices and non-animal sacrifices and offerings BOTH atone for sin in Judaism, and always have…but when we are not able to do one (because, as you said, animal sacrifices need a physical location), we do the other. Its never been only one kind of method for effecting sin atonement.
I think you are missing the point of my question. You seem hesitant to discuss the central importance of animal sacrifice in Judaism - perhaps because today it is mostly ignored or what not. But it was central don’t you think? And you believe it will be once again, true? That’s what I’m trying to get you to discuss…what exactly is it that you see as the future for Judaism? What will your understanding of the Messiah bring?

And of course - where does the Church fit into the equation?
Even Leviticus states that Jews are not to eat any manner of blood because God has given it to us to make AN atonement for sin. It does not say ā€œTHE atonementā€.
And don’t forget this part:

Because the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you, that you may make atonement with it upon the altar for your souls, and the blood may be for an expiation of the soul." (Lev. 17:11)

That’s another discussion that relates to the Eucharist.

Anyway…all of these OT animal sacrifices were foreshadowings, and pointed to the once for all Atonement.

You see, all the millions upon millions of animal sacrfices could accomplish nothing eternal (finite payment can’t cover infinite cost - the price of offending the One infinite God). In fact, their very effectiveness (just like good works, etc. even today) rely on their being connected spiritually to the once for all sacrifice of Our Lord.

God bless,

Dies Irae
 
I’d like to ask you and all Christians a question: do you believe it is prudent to keep hammering away at Jews to convert, after they have made it very clear they are not interested in what you are proselytizing?
Yes…because some do convert. One soul is worth it - for the Glory of God.
My biggest problem is Christians who just won’t take no for an answer…its resulted in oversaturation for me, regarding Christianity. IOW I’ve heard the message SO much, that it has long since become meaningless.
Heh. If we’re right about all this, and you wrong…do you think being annoyed by Christians will be a worthy excuse on judgement day?
So, do you think it is wise to keep plugging away even though you are speaking to closed ears?
Depends on the individual in question and the individual’s ears - not a particular sect or race or group of people.

Common sense here my friend - common sense.

God bless,

Dies Irae
 
I think you are missing the point of my question. You seem hesitant to discuss the central importance of animal sacrifice in Judaism - perhaps because today it is mostly ignored or what not. But it was central don’t you think? And you believe it will be once again, true? That’s what I’m trying to get you to discuss…what exactly is it that you see as the future for Judaism? What will your understanding of the Messiah bring?

And of course - where does the Church fit into the equation?

And don’t forget this part:

Because the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you, that you may make atonement with it upon the altar for your souls, and the blood may be for an expiation of the soul." (Lev. 17:11)

That’s another discussion that relates to the Eucharist.

Anyway…all of these OT animal sacrifices were foreshadowings, and pointed to the once for all Atonement.

You see, all the millions upon millions of animal sacrfices could accomplish nothing eternal (finite payment can’t cover infinite cost - the price of offending the One infinite God). In fact, their very effectiveness (just like good works, etc. even today) rely on their being connected spiritually to the once for all sacrifice of Our Lord.

God bless,

Dies Irae
All of that, of course, is simply your opinion, based on the views of your religion.

To me, as a Jew, it is the height of blasphemy to even imply that the One True God, who very adamantly declared that Jews are not to ever eat blood in any form, would suddenly change His views (God forbid), and now order His followers to drink the blood of his son, and eat his skin.

I cannot personally think of anything more blasphemous than that. Then again, you are a nonJew and it doesn’t matter what you believe, you are free to believe what you want. But for a JEW to accept such a belief would be absolute idolatry,

This is how I know the Christian deity and the God of Israel are not the same: because the God of Israel, as He Himself has stated in the Torah, ā€œis not a man that He should lieā€. Therefore, not only does He not take on human form (see Deut 4 for more evidence of that), but He does not lie or change His Torah.
 
All of that, of course, is simply your opinion, based on the views of your religion.

To me, as a Jew, it is the height of blasphemy to even imply that the One True God, who very adamantly declared that Jews are not to ever eat blood in any form, would suddenly change His views (God forbid), and now order His followers to drink the blood of his son, and eat his skin.
Because God loves us so much, He allows us to participate in His very Divine Life - to abide in Him and He in us. Indeed - "the life is in the blood" was also pointing to the Eucharist - because animal life we are to have no part of - the Divine Life? That’s what it’s all about.

I’m glad to see you picked up on that ;).
…Then again, you are a nonJew and it doesn’t matter what you believe, you are free to believe what you want. But for a JEW to accept such a belief would be absolute idolatry,
Ah yes indeed - we do disagree don’t we. But isn’t Truth important? Do Jews believe in absolute Truth? Or is Truth relative?

If I’m wrong, and I’m blaspheming God in my beliefs and actions, and if you love God, why wouldn’t you want me to stop?

And will I have to stop when your version of the Messiah arrives and the Jewish world eutopia becomes a reality? I’m serious - I want to know the ā€œend gameā€ so to speak…what happens when your version of the Messiah arrives? In addition to animal sacrifice being restored - how does it affect the rest of the world?

Why are you reluctant to share?
…This is how I know the Christian deity and the God of Israel are not the same
If they are not the same, then it is your belief that I and all Christians worship a false god…but wasn’t it you that said that Christianity and Islam were given to the Gentiles precisely so that we could worship the One True God (or something like that)?

You’re confusing me…I sense contradictions.

God bless,

Dies Irae
 
Because God loves us so much, He allows us to participate in His very Divine Life - to abide in Him and He in us. Indeed - "the life is in the blood" was also pointing to the Eucharist - because animal life we are to have no part of - the Divine Life? That’s what it’s all about.

I’m glad to see you picked up on that ;).

Ah yes indeed - we do disagree don’t we. But isn’t Truth important? Do Jews believe in absolute Truth? Or is Truth relative?

If I’m wrong, and I’m blaspheming God in my beliefs and actions, and if you love God, why wouldn’t you want me to stop?

And will I have to stop when your version of the Messiah arrives and the Jewish world eutopia becomes a reality? I’m serious - I want to know the ā€œend gameā€ so to speak…what happens when your version of the Messiah arrives? In addition to animal sacrifice being restored - how does it affect the rest of the world?

Why are you reluctant to share?

God bless,

Dies Irae
I explained this before in other threads, and due to the need to make dinner, will make it as brief as I can.

Judaism teaches that the righteous of ALL nations have a share in the World to Come. We believe, also, that God permitted both Christianity and Islam to develop so as to give Gentiles (who were previously polytheists, remember) access to the ethical monotheistic beliefs of Judaism without themselves needing to become Jews first.

Also, because of Christian missionaries, the Jewish Bible has been spread to the farthest corners of the world. Granted, its being interpreted in a way we do not agree with, but it is still being spread in ways that we were too small numerically to do ourselves. This serves God’s purpose, of making all the world know of ethical monotheism and the One God of Israel.

In this way, we believe, when the true Messiah does come, ALL the world will now be able to recognize him, because now, they will have been prepared for the very concept OF Messiah, which was a belief that until Christianity developed, only Jews accepted. Remember that the very word ā€œmessiahā€ derives from the Hebrew word ā€œmashiachā€, which means ā€œanointed oneā€.

And in this way, the whole world will worship the One True God, for they will have been adequately prepared for the very idea of a Messiah!

So you see, this is why we do not believe Jews need to become Christians or Muslims…because those religions were allowed to develop by God so that GENTILES could come to learn Jewish ethical beliefs, including monotheism. It serves no purpose for Jews, because we ALREADY HAVE those beliefs.
 
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