Why Vatican II?

[Layman]

I think of it this way:

Vat. II opened a door a chink that was kicked open by modernists within the Church. At last they could foist a form of Protestantism on the laity and take tea with the local vicar.

Mass became a meal partaken of by educated equals who received bread into their hands, standing, rather than serfs kneeling before a King.

Smash the altars, rip out the communion rails, throw away the Latin missals; we’re simultaneously going forward into a glorious future of continuous renewal while harking back to the very earliest days of the Church.

Marvellous!

As a superstitous Irishman I imagine I hear mocking laughter in the darkness. It’s an old sin come 'round again: Pride.

 

[JReducation]

I notice that you mention that one of the grounds for an annulment is (5) immaturity. But did you know that “A spouse’s extramarital affair(s), …, etc. serve to demonstrate that the spouse exhibits an antisocial personality which would prevent him/her from fully understanding or carrying out the obligations of a lifelong relationship and therefore evidence that the spouse lacked the due competence required to form a sacramental marriage”
“Many people believe that virtually any failed marriage can be annulled on the basis of incapacity and immaturity.”
According to the site: divorcehelp.net/annulment.html
“We have put together an annulment package that contains sample and blank forms covering all of the various formats currently in use by the Tribunals across the United States and the procedural information to guide you through the process of filing and processing an annulment, from filing the initial paperwork through to the final decision including all of the following documents.”
It’s a great deal for only $149 !!

I’m a little lost here. Can you help clarify what you’re trying to tell me? Thanks.

JR

 

[Matariel]

Baptism depends on the words, the use of water, the intention of the person doing the baptizing, not the person being baptized. A person can be baptized against their will and the baptism is valid.

Actually, if the person who was baptised was obstinately willed against the baptism taking place, they have an invalid baptism.

 

[JReducation]

Actually, if the person who was baptised was obstinately willed against the baptism taking place, they have an invalid baptism.

Actually, the theology of Baptism does not say this. But there is room for this position in this sense, vows are made in Baptism, either by the individual or in his/her name. The law in the USA is that you cannot baptize anyone who is either unwilling to make the vows or a minor whose parents are unwilling. However, the argument validity has yet to be taken to the test. This is an argument for liceity.

The validity of Baptism depends on the matter, not the subject. In marriage, the couple is the matter.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[bobzills]

Actually, the theology of Baptism does not say this. But there is room for this position in this sense, vows are made in Baptism, either by the individual or in his/her name. The law in the USA is that you cannot baptize anyone who is either unwilling to make the vows or a minor whose parents are unwilling. However, the argument validity has yet to be taken to the test. This is an argument for liceity.

The validity of Baptism depends on the matter, not the subject. In marriage, the couple is the matter.

Fraternally,

JR

Since Vatican II, I have read that there have been Baptisms made in the Name of the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier?

 

[rinnie]

Since Vatican II, I have read that there have been Baptisms made in the Name of the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier?

Do you know how many times I have heard, I have read. How about a new one bobz. How about lets talk about what you have seen? You know what the judge says about hear say.

 

[Ockham]

I don’t know where you live. We have a parish that has 7 masses every Sunday. The Church holds about 800 and there is always a crowd standing in the back. We have two brothers hearing confessions every Saturday for an hour. On days when he have penance services we have two brothers and three secular priests hearing confessions for two or more hours. Every Thurs night we have adoration of the Blessed Sacrament for the youth and there are about 200 kids or more from 6 to 8. There are stations of the cross during lent, four parish retreats a year, may crownings, adoration on the feast of Corpus Christi, a Life Teen Mass on Sundays with 1,000 kids and their families, and 65 different parish ministries run by lay ministers.

• I wasn’t aware brothers could hear confession
• what is a ‘secular priest’?
• what is a Life Teen Mass?

 

[bobzills]

Do you know how many times I have heard, I have read. How about a new one bobz. How about lets talk about what you have seen? You know what the judge says about hear say.

OK. Here is a Mass with such a blessing at the end:

ctanorcal.org/WCCTA2008.wmv

 

[Spirithound]

Do you know how many times I have heard, I have read. How about a new one bobz. How about lets talk about what you have seen? You know what the judge says about hear say.

In fairness to Bob, that was actually a rather well-known case, and many baptisms needed to be (re)done.

 

[Spirithound]

• I wasn’t aware brothers could hear confession
• what is a ‘secular priest’?
• what is a Life Teen Mass?

A brother may hear confessions if he is also a priest. JR is a member of the Franciscan family, and so would call even a priest “brother”.
A “secular priest” is a priest who is not a member of a religious order.
A Life Teen Mass is a Mass celebrated for a Life Teen group (it’s a youth group).

 

[JReducation]

Since Vatican II, I have read that there have been Baptisms made in the Name of the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier?

Those are invalid.

JR

 

[JReducation]

• I wasn’t aware brothers could hear confession
• what is a ‘secular priest’?
• what is a Life Teen Mass?

Sorry for the confusion. Among the Capuchin Franciscans they follow the primitive tradition of the Franciscan Order where all members are brothers. However, there are many brothers who are priests. They are not called Father, nor do they wear any distinctive clothing. All of the friars or brothers were the same habit, have the same rights and the same duties. The differences are ministerial. Those who are ordained perform that same duties as most priests. The difference between them and other priests is that they may only minister during those times of the day and year when they are not involved in functions of the community, such as recreation, meals, prayers, retreats, meetings, rest or manual labor.

The brotherhood is their first priority, all other ministries are second to Franciscans, even priestly ministry, except in cases of emergency. A lot also depends on the superior of the house. Some superiors allow the ordained brothers more time for parish life than others. The superior must judge whether certain parish activities are necessary for the good of the friars, then for the good of the laity.

You will find this in all communities of friars and monks. These communities were not founded to be parish priests. Their priests are really ordained brothers and they enter the community to be religious, not parish ministers.

Hope that helped.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[portarica]

My gripe with Vat. II is that I can’t get to a TLM in Ireland where I come from. Holy Ireland. Where post-60’s Catholics have no idea what a Latin Mass is.

Our traditional enemies, the English, had an indult. Thus it is now easier for me to get to a TLM in England than in Holy Ireland. This was a shock to me.

The young Irish now think altar girls, communion in the hand, the vernacular, lay lectors, EMCs, mini-skirts at Mass, the priest versus-populi and guitars are normal. (Yeah, I know they’re allowed, but they’re not reverent. They help make the mass look banal)

A diocese beside mine (in Ireland) is now looking at Permanent Deacons as a solution to the priest shortage. If the masses in the nearest big town are anything to go by, I know why they’ve a shortage. The masses offer a choice between ‘quite’ to ‘very abusive’; including the priest making the words up he goes along, to another sitting down and letting the EMCs distribute all the communion. In a small church!

Why would a normal guy, with all the wonders of the modern era and ‘booty’ on tap available to him, give it up for a life of poverty, chastity and the chance to preside at a feminised, protestantised Mass every day?

Thanks to Vat. II, I didn’t know missing Mass was a mortal sin. Likewise sex outside marriage. That if you died with such a sin on your soul, you would go to Hell. I suppose because no priest ever explicitly made that clear to me. The religious worried too much about trying to reach ‘The Young People’ when they should have delivered a lectern-thumping hellfire sermon now and again. Or stated cooly and calmly to us smart-asses the real stakes in the game called Life. Then at least they could tell Jesus they did their job.
*
I admit, it could be I was too much of a smart-* to take such a message in.* I know I was pious up to my teens, I even read a lesson at my Confirmation, then …

Through the Grace of God I’ve found my way back to the Church, only to find the Mass has mutated even more since I was a lad.

If I had stayed in Holy Ireland I might still be a sneering, cynical sinner with the sword of Damocles hanging over my head. Now, with the TLM I know I can tick the box that says: ‘Go to a holy Mass on Sunday’: check!

Question: Imagine Vat. II had never happened. Explain, briefly please, what would we have lost that has any value i.e. that helps souls get into Heaven?

Actually V2 opened the church to more people and led to a greater understanding of what Jesus actually taught ie, theHis preference for the poor, the treatment of the least etc. etc.

While there is a nostalgic feeling for the “good old days”. The world in general was a much worse place. The five decades prior to V2 were some of the most horrible times in all of mankind. There were the 2 world wars and a number of genocides. The church itself had just recovered from its hangover of being as much a political as opposed to spiritual entity and V2 ushered in not just a change from the forms of worship of the middle ages (hardly the height of Christlike behaviour around the church or world) but a retuen to a form of the church that more closely resembled one of the original flock of Christ.

The great good done by many of the Catholic charities in the last 5 decades was inspired in a great part by the spirit of V2. The example of J23 was a watershed event for many Catholics and if you look closely at the completeness of V2 as opposed the watered down way it has been implemented you would see that tyhe tenants and the purpose of V2 was to bring the flock closer to Jesus by making not only the sheep, but the shepards act in a manner more consistent with the teachings of Christ.

Peace

 

[Layman]

I’m not concerned about socio-historical analysis. I want to know how the Novus Ordo Mass is an improvement on the TLM. I don’t think it is, by a long shot.

Why is the teaching of our faith no longer simply done? You could put the basics in a small pamphlet, give it to a child and say, “Memorise this, your mission in this life depends on it”. Job done.

When all around you is in flux, you stick with the eternal truths and holy tradition.

Some elements in the Church seem to have been trying to make an accommodation with the World. This is bound to fail.

 

[Ockham]

Hope that helped.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you for the explanation.

In my mind, Vatican II opened the door for reform and other elements swung it off its hinges. Whether it was masons, communists, homosexuals, or liberals, our Church and the Mass and not the same. Nearly two thousand years of tradition was tossed out, depriving us all of a rich and beautiful heritage. If councils take time to understand and implement then perhaps we have just lived through the post V2 chaos. Here’s to better times ahead.

 

[Cinette]

It must be a very painful thing when there is conflict of any kind in a Church. I have found myself praying for the Anglican faithful during their time of crisis and hurt.

It is important that the liturgy be made understandable to the faithful. No long ago I was speaking to a Greek who told me that during their Mass he was shocked and disturbed to note the number of people who were having conversations during the most solemn moments.I attended a funeral at the Greek Orthodox Church and found the chanting beautiful but the liturgy very, very long and the people were getting restless.

I took a Jewish woman and her daughter to the synagogue as they did not have transport and attended the services of one of their most holy celebrations and was shocked to note a fellow in the choir chewing gum and people talking all over the place in groups like it was a social event. The readers, including the rabbi read so fast as if it were a race and they wanted to get it over and done with. I did notice some people who were praying earnestly and devotedly and I know that this does not represent the Jewish faith (all the socialising) but that the people tend to go off and do their own thing.

This is sad and is something that should be corrected.

 

[Layman]

Well, in the TLM you can ‘do you own thing’, as long as it’s not distracting to others. Your experience of the Mass is as holy as you want it to be, assuming the priest is doing it right and he’s pious i.e. he can inspire you by his piety and get more graces because of it.

So some people can pray earnestly in their pews and give the responses and some can daydream and chew gum.

With the Novus Ordo, as commonly said, I the Mass itself is distracting, with all the novelties shoehorned into it.

 

[bobzills]

Those are invalid.

JR

And if you are not baptised validly, then you will go to a place in hell called limbo? So it is not too good if there are invalid baptisms in a Catholic Church.

 

[JReducation]

And if you are not baptised validly, then you will go to a place in hell called limbo? So it is not too good if there are invalid baptisms in a Catholic Church.

Limbo is not part of the deposit of faith. We are not really sure where this began. The Church today has ommitted Limbo from her teachings on Baptism. If you read the CCC is explains well what happens to those who die without baptism.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[bobzills]

Limbo is not part of the deposit of faith. We are not really sure where this began. The Church today has ommitted Limbo from her teachings on Baptism. If you read the CCC is explains well what happens to those who die without baptism.

Fraternally,

JR

So before Vatican II, limbo was universally taught in Catholic schools from the Baltimore catechism and from the pulpit. Yet after Vatican II, limbo is no longer taught. How many other teachings will go by the wayside?
They have changed the teaching on limbo, clown Masses, Mr. Potato Head Masses, Communion in the hand, whether to include the filioque in the creed or not, whether the Blood was shed for many or for all, should women teach over men in Church without headcovering, whether a laywomen can give the Communion Service without headfcovering, whether the Old Covenant is salvific for the Jews or not, so how do we know that other teachings may or may not change in the future, such as the teachings on divorce, contraception, abortion, women priests, acceptance of Anglican orders, acceptance of the E. Orthodox position on original sin, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception, position of Eastern Patriarchs in the Church, etc.?