Why Vatican II?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jeff417
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi, portarica. I notice this is one of your first posts. Welcome aboard.
Actually V2 opened the church to more people and led to a greater understanding of what Jesus actually taught ie, the His preference for the poor, the treatment of the least etc. etc.
I assume you don’t really mean that prior to Vatican II the Catholic Church didn’t understand or appreciate the poor, right? To list just a few:

  1. *]St. Francis?
    *]Thousands upon thousands of religious women staffing hospitals for the poor?
    *]Dorothy Day?
    While there is a nostalgic feeling for the “good old days”.
    Many people who worry about the way Vatican II is understood and implemented have no nostalgic illusions about the 20th century. In fact, some of us may even have thought about the history of the Church almost as much as people who disagree with us. 😉
    The world in general was a much worse place. The five decades prior to V2 were some of the most horrible times in all of mankind. There were the 2 world wars and a number of genocides.
    Much worse? That seems like the mistake of nostalgia in reverse. To list just a few post-Vatican II incidents:

    1. *]How many prisoners suffered in Soviet Gulag or pyschiatric wards in the years after Vatican II?
      *]Mao’s Cultural Revolution, the “great leap forward,” began about 10 years after Vatican II.
      *]Ditto Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.
      *]Genocide in Rwanda?
      *]Etc, etc.
      The great good done by many of the Catholic charities in the last 5 decades was inspired in a great part by the spirit of V2.
      Ok. But, the hospitals in the city where I live were staffed by nuns for 3 generations before Vatican II. I would insist that those women knew quite a bit about Christian charity.
      The example of J23 was a watershed event for many Catholics and if you look closely at the completeness of V2 as opposed the watered down way it has been implemented you would see that tyhe tenants and the purpose of V2 was to bring the flock closer to Jesus by making not only the sheep, but the shepards act in a manner more consistent with the teachings of Christ.
      Not sure what example you’re talking about. Please elaborate.

      In general, portarica, you seem to be expressing the attitude or view that is sometimes called “the hermeneutic of rupture,” a way of interpreting Vatican II, kinda like this:

      1. *]There was a Bad Old Church from which we can’t distance ourselves enough, and from which there isn’t much for us to learn.
        *]But now, thanks to us, we have a Good New Church.

        Personally, I’m convinced that things aren’t that simple.

        ASD​

        Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar
 
So before Vatican II, limbo was universally taught in Catholic schools from the Baltimore catechism and from the pulpit. Yet after Vatican II, limbo is no longer taught. How many other teachings will go by the wayside?
They have changed the teaching on limbo, clown Masses, Mr. Potato Head Masses, Communion in the hand, whether to include the filioque in the creed or not, whether the Blood was shed for many or for all, should women teach over men in Church without headcovering, whether a laywomen can give the Communion Service without headfcovering, whether the Old Covenant is salvific for the Jews or not, so how do we know that other teachings may or may not change in the future, such as the teachings on divorce, contraception, abortion, women priests, acceptance of Anglican orders, acceptance of the E. Orthodox position on original sin, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception, position of Eastern Patriarchs in the Church, etc.?
Slow down. We’re talking about Limbo here, not dogma. It is true that Limbo was in the Batimore Catechism. However, it was not part of the deposit of faith. It never was. In fact, it was not even included in the catechisms around the world. Some had it and some never mentioned it.

No one really knows how it got into the catechism in the first place. It was pure speculation on the part of early Christians. But it was never atributed as dogma. Heaven, hell and purgatory are part of dogma in both the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches, but not limbo. Some believe that it came from the Eastern Christians as an explanation to the question about children who died before baptism during an era where infant mortality was very high. In ancient Greek the term was not really a place, but a concept that described the unknown. In other words, the answer to the question, “Where do these unbaptized children go?” was “We have no idea.”

Today the Church takes a more positive approach and teaches that we leave this in the hands of God’s infinite mercy. Rather than respond with 🤷 , which is what the term Limbo meant.

Hope this helps.

JR 🙂
 
Good post, ASD. I for one favour ‘Back To The Future’ as a Church policy. The idea that pre-Vat. II there was something wrong with the Church, that badly needed fixing, is hogwash.

I see a future where grey-haired old women dance around the altar once a month in a near-empty church if the ‘spirit of Vatican II’ is not exorcised fairly soon.

Don’t liberal prelates realise that with falling attendance and general laxity there soon won’t be enough pew-warmers to cough up the cash on the collection-plate to pay for their retirement?
 
Heaven, hell and purgatory are part of dogma in both the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches, but not limbo.
It is my understanding that the Eastern Orthodox Church does not accept purgatory.
 
It is my understanding that the Eastern Orthodox Church does not accept purgatory.
They do accept purgatory. Protestants do not. The Orthodox do. Purgatory was already a dogma before the great schism. The dogmas that are not part of the Orthodox deposit of faith are those that came after the schism.

That was really the Immaculate Conception. Because the Eastern Church was the one that introduced the Assumption of Mary, before the schism. They also introduced the conept of the filioque. The problem with the filioque is that the wording is different between east and west. The Orthodox, as the word says, are very uncomfortable with any wording that they feel is confusing. We do not diagree on the filoque, but on how to say it.

The same applies to the words of consecration. The words in the scripture are “for you” in one gospel and “for the many” in another. Somewhere in the process of rewriting the missals, the words became, “for all”. It is understood that Jesus died for all. That is not the problem. The issue is whether we leave it as it was meant “for all” or as it was said “for the many”. The Congregation on Sacraments and Liturgy would like to see it as it was written, but only for the Latin rite, not for the other rites. The rules for them are different.

As to the other concerns that you mention: women, veils, communion, those are not matters of faith and dogma. They were disciplines. The Church reserves the right to change those at any time.

The ordination of women is a tricky topic. It is not defined as dogma, but accepted as part of the Christian tradition that clerics must be men. The issue is not whether a female priest is against dogma, but whether the Church has the authority to change this particular tradition that was started by Jesus himself. It was not started by the Church, as were other traditions. The conlcusion is that we cannot change traditions that Jesus himself started and that the Apostles taught are essential.

Eastern patriarchs in communion with the Bishop of Rome have a place within the Church. Those who are not in communion with the Bishop of Rome are still valid bishops with legitimate apostolic succession, legitimate sacraments, and legitimate authority over their churches. In fact, they are no longer excommunicated, nor are we by them. This is important, because we often forget that they too have the authority to excommunicate, because they are bishops. They did excommunicate the Latin Church. The mutual excommunications have been lifted. The status is one of sister Churches.

Anglican orders are more complex, because the Anglican Christians had bishops with apostolic succession, but when the king began to appoint bishops the succession was lost in the sense that we do not know who is validly consecrated and ordained and who is not. It is better to assume that they do not have valid orders and ordain any Anglican priest who converts.

The Eastern Orthodox position on original sin is not really considered heresy. But there is an issue with the understanding, because their understanding is that which was in place during the schism. Our understanding was formulated and agreed upon after they left. They have some catching up to do.

Idiots at mass: clowns etc, is already disappearing. All around the world bishops and religous superiors are realizing that some of these attempts to make the mass “more meaningful” were silly at best and offensive to the reverence that is due to the liturgy. That does not mean that you will never see someone do something dumb. It just means that it is being shot down by those in authority as quickly as they see it happen.

Women without headcoverings was never a doctrine. It was a law. Laws can and do change. Just as there was a law that bishops had to wear the bishop’s clothing. Today, the law says that if a bishop is a religious friar or monk, he remains a friar or monk the rest of his life and wears his habit, not the cassock with the purple buttons and sash.

There was a law that priest had to call themselves Father. Today the law says that a priest who is a friar or a monk, retains his title, Brother or Friar, because this was the intent of the founders of those orders.

Laws can be changed. It takes time for people to get used to them, that’s all. I say this because in my own parish people needed time to get used to calling our priests Brother and having a superior who is not a priest. It was always the case where the pastor was a priest and the superior. Now our pastor is still an ordained brother, but he is not the superior of the house. He answers to a lay brother. You can’t tell the lay brothers and the priest brothers apart, because they wear the same clothing and they all have degrees in theology, ministry, and other sciences. They even take turns at being porter, cook, housekeeper, gardner, etc.

Hope this helps to sort out the difference between sacred tradition, laws, and doctrine.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Hi ,
I have to dispute this “idea” of yours, that…" V2 opened the Church to more people and a greater understanding…".etc.
I am a part of the “ahem” older generation .Before V2, we attended Mass and everyone there ‘knew’ they were in the house of God!
You could hear a pin drop, from the time Mass began, and while we approached the alter, and when we kneeled to receive Jesus. Because, we KNEW it was the body of Jesus. Now, people are yaking and talking before, during, and after.Now parish members have the audacity to reach out to their friends in the pews and chatting… on their way to receive Jesus, as though they were in a movie theatre going for popcorn!
Come on…V2 made a mess of our beautiful reverence. And now the people use the ‘sign of peace’ as a time to become even more disruptive and disrespective,
When we were children, we never spoke during mass. Our parents didn’t bring coloring books for us to play with either (a now common sight during Mass). Lets not over look the teen age girls attending Mass half dressed. Oh, and lets not leave out the priests who stand by the way side while so-called ministers are giving out communion, and we are FORCED TO STAND in the presence of our KING! You can call it nostalgic for the “good old days”, we call it DESIRE FOR RETURN OF REVERENCE…I WAS THERE…I KNOW…I SAW…I PARTICIPATED…AND I LONG FOR THE RETURN OF (what you call Middle Ages) REVERENCE…but what we are now seeing is “Campfire services,” Feel good services…Dear God, I ache for the return of our Old Masses…yes

View attachment 5280
 
They do accept purgatory. Protestants do not. The Orthodox do.
It looks like your assertion is wrong because the Catholic Encyclopedia correctly states:

“The modern Orthodox Church denies purgatory…”(Hanna, Edward J. Transcribed by William G. Bilton, Ph.D. Purgatory. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XII. Published 1911. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, June 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York).
 
Slow down. We’re talking about Limbo here, not dogma. It is true that Limbo was in the Batimore Catechism. However, it was not part of the deposit of faith. It never was. In fact, it was not even included in the catechisms around the world. Some had it and some never mentioned it.

No one really knows how it got into the catechism in the first place. It was pure speculation on the part of early Christians. But it was never atributed as dogma. Heaven, hell and purgatory are part of dogma in both the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches, but not limbo. Some believe that it came from the Eastern Christians as an explanation to the question about children who died before baptism during an era where infant mortality was very high. In ancient Greek the term was not really a place, but a concept that described the unknown. In other words, the answer to the question, “Where do these unbaptized children go?” was “We have no idea.”

Today the Church takes a more positive approach and teaches that we leave this in the hands of God’s infinite mercy. Rather than respond with 🤷 , which is what the term Limbo meant.

Hope this helps.

JR 🙂
If limbo was not a dogma, then how does one explain the fact that the Church has stated in the 2nd Council of Lyons in 1274 that souls who die in the state of mortal sin or with original sin only immediately descend into hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”
This is de fide according to theologian, Dr. Ludwig Ott in his Book, Fundamentals of Catholic dogma.
“illorum animas, qui in actuali mortali peccato vel solo originale decedunt, mox in infernum descendere, poenis tamen disparibus puniendas”
 
Hope this helps to sort out the difference between sacred tradition, laws, and doctrine.
Very informative post. Thanks.
Idiots at mass: clowns etc, is already disappearing. All around the world bishops and religous superiors are realizing that some of these attempts to make the mass “more meaningful” were silly at best and offensive to the reverence that is due to the liturgy. That does not mean that you will never see someone do something dumb. It just means that it is being shot down by those in authority as quickly as they see it happen.
I’m sorry to say it, but I’m afraid this is overly optimistic. I have almost the opposite impression: Parish Priests feel entitled to do whatever they want to do. Their innovations and variations aren’t always blatantly “idiotic,” “silly,” “offensive to reverence due,” or “dumb.” But, they are unauthorized and blatantly disobedient.

Anecdote: There was a prodigious crowd on Ash Wednesday at the noon Mass downtown, which I attend daily. Hundreds of Catholics from parishes all over the diocese. Man, it was like Babel! It seemed like no two people knew the same responses. :confused: Most of the modified responses seemed to have to do with avoiding the horrible, offensive words “He” or “Him.”

That episode, among others, makes me think that (1) liberties are actually increasing, and (2) they have an ideological and political foundation that will be tough to dislodge.
 
Hi,
What I think about V2…just ‘some’ of what I think of V2 and what it did to our beautiful Mass!
We have changed our parish at least five times. Where did this "everybody “hold hands during the Our Father” come from?Now we are supposed to hold hands with these coughing and sneezing people- not knowing if they have any hygiene practices. Our apprehension gives the appearance of “bias”. Oh thank you for these wonderful changes V2!
Another thing, the priest up there on that stage (used deliberately) hasn’t a clue that people are banging on the back of seats, talking to each other during and after receiving. Why can’t these priests give a weekly five minute chat before Mass on the
fact that we are actually about to receive Jesus, body, blood, soul and divinity, instead of the sports scores, and little jokes?
V2 wanted to conform with the modern world…well, it got it!
and all the garbage that goes with it also!:bowdown:
View attachment 5285

.
Everyone I talk with says the church is a better place due to Vatican II. This is asking a wide range of people at my church. I read the traditional posts on here but I have yet to talk with a traditional follower yet.

Thanks JReducation, I really enjoy your posts.
 
If limbo was not a dogma, then how does one explain the fact that the Church has stated in the 2nd Council of Lyons in 1274 that souls who die in the state of mortal sin or with original sin only immediately descend into hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”
This is de fide according to theologian, Dr. Ludwig Ott in his Book, Fundamentals of Catholic dogma.
“illorum animas, qui in actuali mortali peccato vel solo originale decedunt, mox in infernum descendere, poenis tamen disparibus puniendas”
It may be de fide to Dr. Ludwig, but it is not de fide to the Sacred Congregation on the Faith and Cardinal Ratzinger who oversaw the writing of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Pope John Paul II who approved it and gave it his imprimatur. We must always go by what the Sacred Congregation teaches and defends. There are many opinions on many issues. In the end, the Sacred Congregation is the final voice acting in the name of the Apostolic See and the Universal Church.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
According to this article, the law requiring headcovering for women is still in effect:
catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/head-covering1.htm
The problem with this article is that it argues in the negative. The writer is looking for a statement that says that women may not or do not have to wear veils in the Code of 1983. He is correct in saying that there is not such a statement.

However, the absence of such a statement does not necessarily mean that they must.

One good example that I can give you is women religious. Many congregations of women religious do not wear veils and they are not required to do so by the Sacred Congregation for Religious and Secular Institutes. This is the Pontifical Congregation that approves the constitutions of religious communities of Pontifical Right, that is religious communities that are expressly under the authority of the Pontiff.

Another example is the changes in the rule at the Vatican itself. Women are no longer required to cover their heads to enter St. Peter’s or to attend a Papal mass or audience. Women religious who work at the Vatican are not required to wear veils unless their congregation requires it.

The Sacred Congregation for Religious and Secular Institutes only approves religious constitutions after carefully checking that they conform to Sacred Tradition, Scripture, Canon Law, dogma and the will of the founders. It is very unlikely that this matter would have escaped the Sacred Congregation in approving the constitutions of so many religious communities of women or the Holy Father who has to sign the decree of enactment of the constitutions.

Finally, we have to accept that this is not a tradition or discipline that is essential to the Catholic faith. The faith will not rise or fall on this discipline. If it is important to some people, by all means give them the respect and freedom to do wear the head covering. That is an act of charity. If it is not needed by others, give them the same respect and freedom.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Very informative post. Thanks.

I’m sorry to say it, but I’m afraid this is overly optimistic. I have almost the opposite impression: Parish Priests feel entitled to do whatever they want to do. Their innovations and variations aren’t always blatantly “idiotic,” “silly,” “offensive to reverence due,” or “dumb.” But, they are unauthorized and blatantly disobedient.

Anecdote: There was a prodigious crowd on Ash Wednesday at the noon Mass downtown, which I attend daily. Hundreds of Catholics from parishes all over the diocese. Man, it was like Babel! It seemed like no two people knew the same responses. :confused: Most of the modified responses seemed to have to do with avoiding the horrible, offensive words “He” or “Him.”

That episode, among others, makes me think that (1) liberties are actually increasing, and (2) they have an ideological and political foundation that will be tough to dislodge.
To be honest and charitable, I have to say that I don’t think so. I think there are things that happen that are simple mistakes of priests, without the intention to disobey or do harm. I’ve been around for a long time and have ministered in six dioceses and eight religious houses. I have not seen the rampant abuse that people claim happens every day. I have seen some things that are not appropriate or done by the letter of the law, but not as a daily occurrence.

We have to be careful not to be overly zealous and attend mass looking for mistakes or mishaps, because we’re going to find something that doesn’t look right. The rule of thumb that I always recommend is that one go to mass to worship God and focus on that.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
It looks like your assertion is wrong because the Catholic Encyclopedia correctly states:

“The modern Orthodox Church denies purgatory…”(Hanna, Edward J. Transcribed by William G. Bilton, Ph.D. Purgatory. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XII. Published 1911. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, June 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York).
This is the official teaching of the Orthodox Church on purgatory. As you can see, they reject the idea of purification by a temporal fire, not a temporal state of purification. The difference between the Orthodox and the Catholics is about the means of purification, not the doctrine of a temporal punishment for sins or the power of the Church to pray for the souls of the dead.

The Orthodox objection to the doctrine of purgatory, expounded at the council by Metropolitan Bessarion of Nicaea and by Mark of Ephesus, is that the Latin doctrine rests on a distinction between a temporal and an eternal fire, a distinction which the Orthodox reject. “Bessarion continued by explaining that there is one eternal fire only. The temporal punishment of sinful souls consists in that they, for a time, depart into a place of darkness and sorrow where they are punished by being deprived of the Divine Light. However, they can be delivered from this place of darkness and sorrow through the prayers of the Church, the Holy Eucharist and deeds of charity done in their name – but not by fire.” Thus, both churches affirm that the soul undergoes continued purification after death, but the Orthodox deny (or, at least, refuse to affirm) that a purgatorial fire is the means of such purification.

en.allexperts.com/q/Eastern-Orthodox-1456/Purgatory.htm

Again, I remind people that one has to be very careful in reading theology, Church history and Canon Law. One has to learn to read between the lines and find the corresponding documents to connect the dots correctly. Otherwise we run the risk of the same failure as fundamentalists who read one passage and run with it as if it contained everything one needs to know about a subject.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
I’ve been around for a long time and have ministered in six dioceses and eight religious houses. I have not seen the rampant abuse that people claim happens every day. I have seen some things that are not appropriate or done by the letter of the law, but not as a daily occurrence.
The logic of that statement is questionable. You haven’t seen it? OK. But, I assume you’re not suggesting that the rest of us are making it up. If a person hasn’t seen or experienced X, then he’s justified in ignoring other people who are upset about X? Or, X is really just in the eyes of the beholder; so we should close our eyes? I don’t have the impression that you’re so dismissive of other people’s thoughts and feelings, of what other people have to say. So, unclear there.
We have to be careful not to be overly zealous and attend mass looking for mistakes or mishaps, because we’re going to find something that doesn’t look right. The rule of thumb that I always recommend is that one go to mass to worship God and focus on that.
Sounds like reasonable advice, in general. However, I’m sure you’re aware that it isn’t really either/or? That is, I’m confident that you realize that people are capable of thinking about both the good parts of Mass and the abuses, all on the same day?

Anyway, we would want to be very careful not to give the impression that we want to silence laymen who are concerned about something, including liturgical abuse, right? Coming from folk who otherwise seem to appreciate the spirit of Vatican II, that would be a sad irony.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar
 
If limbo was not a dogma, then how does one explain the fact that the Church has stated in the 2nd Council of Lyons in 1274 that souls who die in the state of mortal sin or with original sin only immediately descend into hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”
This is de fide according to theologian, Dr. Ludwig Ott in his Book, Fundamentals of Catholic dogma.
“illorum animas, qui in actuali mortali peccato vel solo originale decedunt, mox in infernum descendere, poenis tamen disparibus puniendas”
‘The Church’ stated this? Not everything stated in a council is an infallible exercise of the Magisterium, just as every pronouncement of a Pope is not. Vatican 2, for example, pronounced no binding dogma at all, even though it was an ecumenical council that said many fine (and some possibly not so fine) things.

And Dr Ott, great though he is, is even less likely to be infallible in his estimation of what is dogmatic and binding belief and what is not. I’d trust JP2’s Catechism and Benedict XVI over Dr Ott any day.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top