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hudson
Guest
Exactly.
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Cider
Guest
I know you aren’t, but other people are very sensitive and like to read things in ways not intended. So we have to be extra careful about following the rules so as not to get suspended or banned
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rben20
Guest
Well my priest who celebrates the OF (loves the EF) told me everyone certainly acted like it was abrogated. It was news to him in 2007 that it wasn’t.
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
I think the phrase “it was a mess” sums it up pretty well. Some people with power wanted it to vanish. Glad it didn’t work; I’m an OF guy myself, mainly because I grew up in it, but even I can tell losing the OF for good would be a big loss.
And I highly doubt that if the EF gained popularity to put it on par with the OF anyone would try to suppress it. Active suppression of either form at this point would go against Pope Benedict’s pretty clear instructions, and while I suppose a future pope could completely reverse course on a decision such as this, it seems unlikely that this would happen any time in the near future simply because that pope would have to explain why Pope Benedict was wrong - and Pope Benedict is pretty clearly right about this.
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rben20
Guest
You’d be amazed with what laity come up with as to why the EF should not be around. I hope no Pope ever goes down that path, but I agree, Pope Benedict XVI couldn’t have said it better.
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At_Trent
Guest
I think Bl.JPII saw that there were many who needed to fill a spiritual hunger, and he granted the indult. H.H. BXVI freed it from indult for the same reasons, perhaps because so many bishops continued to suppress the TLM. jmo of course.
Who knows if it will ever be suppressed again. Unless all seminarians are required to learn it, I’m not sure if it will ever surpass the EF.
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BornAgain2010
Guest
I may be out of the loop. And I admit I have no idea what y’all are talking about.
But…
If you’re Latin Rite, then wouldnt EVERY Mass at a Latin Rite Church be a Latin Mass.
Just the same as EVERY Mass at a Byzantine Church is a Byzantine Mass?
OR is this thread about some fine print as to the details and regulations, etc pertaining on how to SAY the Mass?
Also I dont understand any of this OF/EF, or Tridentine, TLM, ORCM, etc.
Is there a book that explains all this stuff? and more importantly what they are?
But…
If you’re Latin Rite, then wouldnt EVERY Mass at a Latin Rite Church be a Latin Mass.
Just the same as EVERY Mass at a Byzantine Church is a Byzantine Mass?
OR is this thread about some fine print as to the details and regulations, etc pertaining on how to SAY the Mass?
Also I dont understand any of this OF/EF, or Tridentine, TLM, ORCM, etc.
Is there a book that explains all this stuff? and more importantly what they are?
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At_Trent
Guest
EF = extraordinary form, same as TLMI may be out of the loop. And I admit I have no idea what y’all are talking about.
But…
If you’re Latin Rite, then wouldnt EVERY Mass at a Latin Rite Church be a Latin Mass.
Just the same as EVERY Mass at a Byzantine Church is a Byzantine Mass?
OR is this thread about some fine print as to the details and regulations, etc pertaining on how to SAY the Mass?
Also I dont understand any of this OF/EF, or Tridentine, TLM, ORCM, etc.
Is there a book that explains all this stuff? and more importantly what they are?
TLM=Traditional Latin Mass
OF= Ordinary form, same as NO
NO=Novus Ordo, the Mass most Roman Catholics attend
EF and OF are the terms the pope prefers
Both forms are Latin Rite. Read the pope’s Summorum Pontificum on the matter
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16summorumpontificum.htm
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Hadrianus
Guest
Yes “it was a mess”, to put it mildly. The late 1960’s and early 70’s was a period of intense liturgical infighting. One can read both sides of it in Annibale Bugnini’s “LIturgical Reform” and Michael Davies “Pope Paul’s New Mass.” Archbishop Bugnini was the principal overseer of the commission which drew up the New Mass, and he was very opposed to the continued use of the TLM. When the curial offices were reorganized in 1969 he became secretary of the new Congregation of Divine Worship which replaced the Congregation of Rites. He issued two instructions, in '71 and '74 restricting use of the TLM to old and infirm priests. Cardinal Heenan asked Paul VI personally to allow the use of the TLM in England and Wales after a famous Petition was signed by a group of English writers and intellectuals including Agatha Christie. This is sometimes referred to as the “Agatha Christie Indult”, as it is said that Paul VI upon reading it said “Ah, Agatha Christie, I like her books.”
The Bishops worldwide were divided, some wanting the TLM suppressed, others wanting it retained. the legality of the two instructions was questioned and in 1986 John Paul II asked a commission of 9 Cardinals to examine the issue. Cardinal Ratzinger was one of them. They reached the conclusion that the TLM was never juridically suppressed, and hence that restrictions on it should be removed. Unfortunately there was much personal opposition to this among influential people and it took almost another 20 years for the Motu Proprio of Benedict XVI to appear.
There are still people who don’t want the TLm to revive, but there is no way that it would be suppressed again, as only a Pope could do so and he would have to issue a law comparable to an Apostolic Constitution to do so. That is the highest type of Papal law and it would be difficult to imagine a situation which could cause it.
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MarkThompson
Guest
Pope Benedict answers this clearly in Summorum Pontificum, saying:
But in some regions, no small numbers of faithful adhered and continue to adhere with great love and affection to the earlier liturgical forms. These had so deeply marked their culture and their spirit that in 1984 the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II, moved by a concern for the pastoral care of these faithful, with the special indult 'Quattuor abhinc anno," issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship, granted permission to use the Roman Missal published by Blessed John XXIII in the year 1962. Later, in the year 1988, John Paul II with the Apostolic Letter given as Motu Proprio, ‘Ecclesia Dei,’ exhorted bishops to make generous use of this power in favor of all the faithful who so desired.
Following the insistent prayers of these faithful, long deliberated upon by our predecessor John Paul II, and after having listened to the views of the Cardinal Fathers of the Consistory of 22 March 2006, having reflected deeply upon all aspects of the question, invoked the Holy Spirit and trusting in the help of God, with these Apostolic Letters we establish the following:
Right, the Pope is basically the absolute monarch of the Church. In theory the Pope could order the demolition of St. Peter’s Basilica to have a new one built in its place (Pope Nicholas V did this in the 1470s) or he could completely abolish your rite of Mass (Pius V abolished a number of rites in 1570). It is one of the dangers inherent in having an absolute monarch that he can make a decision you totally disagree with and there is nothing for you to do.
With humility and obedience, of course. I mean, at the stroke of a pen he could completely abolish their society, or make them subject to the Bishop of Timbuktu. He is the Pope; in matters of Church governance his authority is absolute. As Urban VIII stated in Unam Sanctam: “if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man . . . . This authority, however, though it has been given to man and is exercised by man, is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven’ etc. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God.”
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TrueLight
Guest
Very well put, Mark. And very sobering.
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ProVobis
Guest
I don’t know if it’s a matter of suppression anymore. If the rite doesn’t get heavily promoted either by the bishops, priests, word-of-mouth, or even in movies, there will be declining interest and will just get discontinued little by little. It happens all the time in the English parishes where Masses (and parishes) become consolidated, and it could happen in the EF parishes eventually as well.
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TrueLight
Guest
Scary!
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Cat
Guest
Do you think that if this happens, TLM “communities” will form, especially in the United States, and that those loyal to this Mass will gravitate there?
That is essentially what has happened with the Reformed Church in America/Christian Reformed Church. There are several cities which are strongholds of Reformed churches; e.g., Grand Rapids, Michigan has over 100 Reformed churches. There are at least two other strongholds of Reformed churches in the U.S., but I can’t remember where they are. Everywhere else, Reformed churches either don’t exist, or they are soooo tiny that they struggle to keep going. In our city, the one little Reformed church finally merged with one of the large Presbyterian churches.
Same for Mennonites. You just don’t see Mennonite churches scattered across the U.S. Instead, you see cities and areas where a large number of the people are Mennonite and there are plenty of places for them to worship; e.g., Goshen, Indiana.
There are other examples among Protestant denominations; e.g., there is a preponderance of the Campbellite churches in Kentucky.
It seems that the idea of a “TLM community” (I apologize if that name sounds “gimmicky”–I’m just trying to use a clearly-understandable name) would be a good thing. I think it would be enjoyable and fulfilling to live around many like-minded people and be able to worship freely and fully.
I also think it would make the logistics easier for parishes. Right now, establishing a TLM in every parish is rather difficult because it means re-orienting the Church interior.
Having a TLM Mass can also add to expenses at a time when many parishes are just squeaking by. But if a parish is exclusively TLM (we have one of these parishes in our city), ALL their resources are used to present the TLM as beautifully as possible.
And most importantly, a TLM community would mean unity for the people who settle in it. No more division–everyone is on board and everyone is happy and fulfilled by the TLM. Everyone likes the music. Everyone is studying Latin to some extent. Everyone understands the “choreography” of the TLM. Everyone veils. Everyone dresses up for Mass. Every altar server is male and there are no conflicts with this. Everyone approves of large families. etc.
There is a lot to be said for living in harmony with others who are enthusiastic about the same values and life experiences. It’s a very very nice way to go through life. My husband and I are always happiest when we are at the ice skating rink, because this is where we fit in and feel comfortable and enjoy life the most. We realize that not everyone likes ice skating sports, and we don’t expect them to. But we sure love being around skating people and in a skating environment. It’s nice.
So could this be a viable option, should the TLM continue to struggle for a place in many towns and cities in the U.S.?
Yes, I realize that not everyone can pack up, move to a new place, and start over. But in this computer age, it’s easier than it used to be. My husband no longer works out of an office; he works out of his computer. He has done a full day’s work sitting in skating rinks, in hotels, in church lobbies, in parks, and in many restaurants and coffee shops! Also, health care is health care, no matter what part of the country you live in Same for education, although I assume that many adherents to the TLM would love to have a traditional Catholic school, and this would mean education jobs for many.
What I’m saying is that I think it would work for many people who long for a more stable life with the TLM as the central focus. It actually sounds rather nice, although I would prefer the OF community (which is basically what I have right now!
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MissRose73
Guest
I am very happy that our Holy Father, Benedict, is allowing for the EF (TLM) to be said more and priests do have permission to say it. I hope more priests learn it as it is a different way and a beautiful thing too so that they understand how things were done prior to Vatican II.
It would be nice in my diocese to have ONE parish offer the EF Mass but I have yet to find it. So I must travel at least 1.5 hours to get to an EF Mass but it is a worthwhile thing. As a young person, I like the chances I have to assist at an EF Mass as part of the congregation even if it is a small or large one. Both churches I have attended that offer the EF Masses, the priests have been welcoming and also appreciative of the fact that I have traveled the distance for Mass.
The more I go, the easier I am finding it to follow along even with using the red booklets provided by the church. I find that it gives me more of a chance to reflect even though there is a lot going on, and much that we don’t get to hear but plenty to see & observe.
It would be nice in my diocese to have ONE parish offer the EF Mass but I have yet to find it. So I must travel at least 1.5 hours to get to an EF Mass but it is a worthwhile thing. As a young person, I like the chances I have to assist at an EF Mass as part of the congregation even if it is a small or large one. Both churches I have attended that offer the EF Masses, the priests have been welcoming and also appreciative of the fact that I have traveled the distance for Mass.
The more I go, the easier I am finding it to follow along even with using the red booklets provided by the church. I find that it gives me more of a chance to reflect even though there is a lot going on, and much that we don’t get to hear but plenty to see & observe.
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TrueLight
Guest
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MissRose73
Guest
I look forward to the days that newer people will follow my direction at EF Masses, but I need to go more often for that day to arrive.
Yes as it happens for all of us.
Soon others will be looking to you for direction.
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TrueLight
Guest
It will come sooner than you think. When I first started posting here, I started a thread that went something like, “Fess up. Do you really understand what is happening at the Latin Mass”? I am so silly sometimes. lol.I look forward to the days that newer people will follow my direction at EF Masses, but I need to go more often for that day to arrive.
I don’t know when it happened but I recently realized that I know exactly what comes next, all the genuflections and standings, incensing etc. So now I can go to any EF high or sung Mass anywhere and feel right at home.
That is a wonderful thing.
The uniformity from EF mass to EF mass anywhere you go is one of the awesome things about the EF.
I’m beginning to get used to the low Mass as well.
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MissRose73
Guest
I’ve only attended Low Masses, but someday hope to go to High Masses too.
I am sure the same will apply, the more I go to both High and Low Masses, the easier it will be to understand and follow along.
I am sure the same will apply, the more I go to both High and Low Masses, the easier it will be to understand and follow along.
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JReducation
Guest
In Canon Law and in philosophy these are very important differences. Something is abrogated, means that it is banned or discarded forever. When something is prohibitted, it is not definitive.This is basically what I said in my first post. Which makes sense. The Church had to transition to the new mass.
With all due respect, it’s a technicality. If priests used to say the latin mass before and now most of them were not allowed to say it, well…
You did a good job explaining the technicality.
When priests were suspended or penalized it was not because they celebrated a banned mass. It was because they disobeyed a prohibition.
What happened between then and now is that many people did the same thing that people here are doing. They began to use prohibited and abrogated interchangeably. They are not interchangeable.
Pope Benedict makes references to the indults to show that the Tridentine Form was not abrogated. You can’t give an indult to do something that is banned. You can give an indult to do something that is prohibitted. Another term that is used for that in Canon Law is “a suspension of the law”. You have a law or regulation, but you suspend it for a particular situation or a particular group.
What Pope Benedict has done is clarified the language and has allowed for the restriction to be lifted for most priests. We can’t say for all priests, because priests who are friars, monks and clerks regular must get permission to celebrate it for the public. The superior can deny the permission without having to offer an explanation. His is the voice of Christ. If he says “no” then “it’s no at this time.” It may be yes at a later date, but not today.
But we often do this. We use terms interchangeably for so long that we forget that they don’t mean the same thing. We do this in many situations, not just this one.
It’s like the reading of SP and the UE. Those lay people who want the EF very badly, failed to read the part about the religious superiors. They are angry at many religious superiors who have not given the permission for their men to celebrate it. These folks don’t understand that the religious superior is like a bishop over his community and that the community is governed by laws that supersede SP, because SP never claims to overrule Particular Law. People don’t alwasy interpret the fine detials in what they read. Again, we do this all the time, not just in matters of religion.
We’re all nuts. What else can I say?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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