Why wasn't abortion made illegal when the Republicans had all the power?

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I disagree - the “whole point” is to save lives of babies, not punish. Frankly, this undercurrent of “let’s make everything a criminal matter - and execute the doctors, mothers, fathers and anyone abetting” will, IMHO serve only to prolong the carnage because with that undercurrent you will never get the societal buy-in.

I know many, if not most, on this board disagree, but I truly believe this “let’s criminalize” chant generates opposition, deflects from real solutions and serves to undermine the rule of law in general while prolonging the acceptability of abortion.
You are making the false assumptino that “let’s criminalize” is the only goal. Yes, we want it illegal; however, pushing for that is only part of what we do. Assisting pregnant teens, encouraging adoption and educating people on the sanctity of life are also very important.
 
Is there a possibility that another seat will open up on the Supreme Court during the next president’s term?
 
Is there a possibility that another seat will open up on the Supreme Court during the next president’s term?
It’s always possible. Death or retirement are the reasons someone has to be replaced. The ages of the justices is below:

John Roberts, 53
John Paul Stevens, 87
Antonin Scalia, 71
Anthony Kennedy, 71
David Souter, 68
Clarence Thomas, 59
Ruth Bader Ginsburg, 74
Stephen Bryer, 69
Samuel Alito, 57
 
LOL, of course it’d cut down abortions. People are afraid of violent death. For someone who knows his history you sure missed out on Thomas Hobbes.
Hard to tell if you are serious or tongue in cheek on this one (isn’t that a shame that I can’t tell based on some posts I’ve seen on this Board).

If serious, then let’s propose death by a thousand little cuts, flaying, crucifixion, the oubliette or some other horrific method of execution - that would really make folks afraid.

If tongue in cheek - thank you.
 
Except that the USSC has carefully avoided making such a definition entirely, and seems to call for such a definition to be made by someone in this clause.
I was completely unaware of that section in Roe; what intriguing possibilities that suggests. Regarding your comment above, it is not the courts province to decide that issue; I think they properly deferred from ruling on it.
If forced to make that call, given the current makeup of the court, which do you think will prevail?
Given the scientific evidence I think it likely that the court would not overrule a law that defined human life as beginning at conception. I wonder why no state legislature has undertaken to pass such a law.

Ender
 
Keep in mind, though, that overturning Roe v. Wade would NOT eliminate abortion. The issue would simply be sent back to the states. Some states would prohibit the procedure, and some would not. In those states where abortion was made illegal, if a woman still desired the procedure, she would probably still be able to have it done, either by crossing state lines or by means of illegal (and risky) “backalley” abortion.
I have said this before. Roughly 30 states would prohibit abortion, while some others would restrict it, and states like NY, NJ, CA, OR whose Constitutions all have privacy clauses would have virtually unlimited access.

It is impossible for a State who has outlawed abortion to prevent citizens from leaving or traveling through it to obtain abortions where they are legal. Rep. Brinkemann from Ohio tried to add “abortion trafficking” to a State Bill and it was laughed off the Floor. States simply do not have that power, and it is debatable whether Congress has the power to prevent travel to circumvent State laws.

That is the whole point of Federalism. If you don’t like a Law making something illegal, then go where it is legal and do it. OR lobby to make it legal. Congress preventing people from leaving a State to go where something was legal would completely disregard the Constitution.

It is illegal to gamble in many states, yet millions of people travel to Las Vegas and Atlantic City? In fact, here in FL i can plan a trip to AC or LV with the specific intent to gamble, and be free from prosecution. The same will hold true for abortion.
 
Why make something illegal when it makes no difference to the abortion rate but increases dangers to the mother?

nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html?th&emc=th
Legal or Not, Abortion Rates Compare
By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL
Published: October 12, 2007

“But the legal status of abortion did greatly affect the dangers involved, the researchers said”
 
I have said this before. Roughly 30 states would prohibit abortion, while some others would restrict it, and states like NY, NJ, CA, OR whose Constitutions all have privacy clauses would have virtually unlimited access.
The perfect is the enemy of the good. I’d be happy if I could work to get 30 states to outlaw abortion.
It is impossible for a State who has outlawed abortion to prevent citizens from leaving or traveling through it to obtain abortions where they are legal. Rep. Brinkemann from Ohio tried to add “abortion trafficking” to a State Bill and it was laughed off the Floor. States simply do not have that power, and it is debatable whether Congress has the power to prevent travel to circumvent State laws.
The Mann Act – which prohibits taking women across state lines “for immoral purposes” is just such a law.
That is the whole point of Federalism. If you don’t like a Law making something illegal, then go where it is legal and do it. OR lobby to make it legal. Congress preventing people from leaving a State to go where something was legal would completely disregard the Constitution.
You can’t take a woman from New Jersey to make her a prostitute – that would violate Federal law.
It is illegal to gamble in many states, yet millions of people travel to Las Vegas and Atlantic City? In fact, here in FL i can plan a trip to AC or LV with the specific intent to gamble, and be free from prosecution. The same will hold true for abortion.
Will it?

And even if it does, will we not have still made significant progress?
 
The Mann Act – which prohibits taking women across state lines “for immoral purposes” is just such a law.

You can’t take a woman from New Jersey to make her a prostitute – that would violate Federal law.
I can most certainly take a woman from NJ, with her full consent, to Nevada to the “Bunny Ranch” and help her obtain a job there. The Federal government has no say in whether you can leave a state where prostitution is illegal and go where it is. That would nullify State’s rights and the ability of persons to freely choose where to live, work, or travel.

As far as the Mann act, that is unenforceable due to Lawrence vs Texas. You cite Federal law that has never been subjected to scrutiny in Federal court. If the Mann act were challenged today, bye bye.
 
I can most certainly take a woman from NJ, with her full consent, to Nevada to the “Bunny Ranch” and help her obtain a job there. The Federal government has no say in whether you can leave a state where prostitution is illegal and go where it is. That would nullify State’s rights and the ability of persons to freely choose where to live, work, or travel.

As far as the Mann act, that is unenforceable due to Lawrence vs Texas. You cite Federal law that has never been subjected to scrutiny in Federal court. If the Mann act were challenged today, bye bye.
So when are you arguing the case before the Supreme Court?😛

There are plenty of laws that cover crossing state lines to do something illegal.
 
Why make something illegal when it makes no difference to the abortion rate but increases dangers to the mother?

nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html?th&emc=th
Legal or Not, Abortion Rates Compare
By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL
Published: October 12, 2007

“But the legal status of abortion did greatly affect the dangers involved, the researchers said”
So you want us to accept the word of a pro-abortion study cited in a pro-abortion newspaper? No thank you.

There is no evidence at all that making abortion illegal would not decrease the number of abortions. Even with the ability to travel to a state where it is legal, it still would not be an easy option for those with lower incomes. Also, striking down Roe vs. Wade would open the way for a federal ban on abortion.

The bottom line of the issue for Catholics is this: A Catholic cannot support legalized abortion under any circumstance if they wish to be faithful to the Church. The constant teaching of the Church and the Pope has made this clear.
 
Planned Parenthood in this nation recieves heavy tax-dollar subsidy AND turns a profit (60M last year - not bad for a subsidized non-profit group! That is where I went wrong in my own business - I didn’t set up a non-profit!).

For all the tax money they get, they aren’t doing for free. Cheap abortions are at least $350 most places… The younger you can get the patient for the first one, the more likely she will come back for 3-5 more by age 25… ($1750 for 5 abortions at the cheapest rate… Not bad for 25-60 minutes worth of work [total] for all 5!No one can say blood money is not abundant!)

Plus here is a dirty little secret that PP counts on and most people don’t consider: once you have had or helped procur or pay for an abortion, it is hard to go back to a pro-life position. Somewhere between guilt and justification what you did HAS TO BE RIGHT.

I was working with a woman who loved to talk about the drama in her family (as though we cared) at work. While sitting around working on a task she was blabbing on and on about how her niece is on her second abortion but that is no surpise, her mother had like like five. I winced and said “That is awful.”

Boy did I open the floodgates! Knowing I was Catholic her first response was shouting vitriol. Screaming and shouting at me in front of co-workers this is pretty much her insipid tirade that I suffered for wincing and (in spite of myself!) saying “That is awful” after she casually mentions her sister and niece have collectively had SEVEN abortions!:

***"What? What? Cause that is a sin? You think you know what it is like?!?! You think you are so holy???

And the priests that (#^&$)** little boys are all angels going to heaven on little wings? They are OK? Nothing wrong with them? They are holy? They are perfect?

The scariest moments of my life were being stuffed in a closet called a confessional, terrified for the moment I would hear the little wooden door slide open and I would be forced to tell my sins to a man! And you think that isn’t child abuse? You think that is all right???"*

Understand all I said was “That is awful.”

Between the money involved in abortion and the way in which some demographic groups have come to depend on it as a part of their way of life (Planned Parenthood is smart about erecting their clinics in the poorest areas…)

Well I defy you to find a majority of senators and representitives who are willing to actually take on that sort of established militancy and hatred for anyone or any thing that suggest maybe, just maybe, surgically cutting up the baby one is pregnat with is NOT ok.

With each new client to the abortion clinic, a new (if somewhat quiet) militant is born. Knowing what they did, they HAVE to defend it as right and ok. Hard to live with yourself otherwise.

Guilt, justification and rationalization are POWERFUL things.
 
There are plenty of laws that cover crossing state lines to do something illegal.
Under that philosophy, a person living in Arkansas could never leave that state, move to NJ and gamble or have an abortion. They would forever be prevented from doing either because both would have been illegal in their previous state.

Once you leave a state, you are completely free of its Laws (provided you have no court or probation orders). Even if your intent is to leave the State to do something that is legal elsewhere. In Florida is it illegal to try and defraud a urine test. So what if I left FL and went to Alabama specifically to take a needed drug test, which I could falsify because it is not illegal there? Congress’ power rests with interstate Commerce, not personal travel. If money becomes involved, it is plausible that Federal law could cover it. But it is just not possible for Congress to restrict travel between states to go where one likes the local Laws.

How can Congress tell someone they can’t leave Arkansas to go to NJ to have an abortion? That would infringe on NJ people’s rights and Laws enacted by their Legislature. Once a person is inside NJ, they are bound by NJ law, not Arkansas.
 
Under that philosophy, a person living in Arkansas could never leave that state, move to NJ and gamble or have an abortion. They would forever be prevented from doing either because both would have been illegal in their previous state.
If there were such a Federal law – but there is not.
Once you leave a state, you are completely free of its Laws (provided you have no court or probation orders).a
But not of Federal laws – and Federal laws that prohibit crossing state lines for nefarious purposes are plentiful.
Even if your intent is to leave the State to do something that is legal elsewhere. In Florida is it illegal to try and defraud a urine test. So what if I left FL and went to Alabama specifically to take a needed drug test, which I could falsify because it is not illegal there?
You might want to read what you just wrote, and edit it out.😛
Congress’ power rests with interstate Commerce, not personal travel. If money becomes involved, it is plausible that Federal law could cover it. But it is just not possible for Congress to restrict travel between states to go where one likes the local Laws.
You’re getting there.😃
How can Congress tell someone they can’t leave Arkansas to go to NJ to have an abortion? That would infringe on NJ people’s rights and Laws enacted by their Legislature. Once a person is inside NJ, they are bound by NJ law, not Arkansas.
But when they cross a state line, they come under Federal law, if there is one covering what they intend to do when they get there.
 
Minor correction – Clinton did veto the partial birth ban. That is to say, he forbade it to become law.

The bill passed the House in the next Congress, and went to the Senate where 60 (out of 100) senators signed on as co-sponsors – but never got to a vote. The Democrats had the majority in the Senate at that time, and the senior Democratic leadership blocked it.

It passed both House and Senate in the next Congress (both houses had Republican majorities) and went to Bush, who signed it into law.
I stand corrected. Believe it or not,that is what I meant to say. Thanks for the correction.
 
Michel, at this stage of the game abortion has been made legal by the Supreme Court (Roe v Wade) and until such time as a case is brought before the court that will challenge that decision, it remains the law of the land. Since partial birth abortion was not specifically mentioned in Roe v Wade, the Congress can, and did, propose legislation banning that horrific procedure. President Clinton did not veto that bill when it came before him, President Bush did. This is why it is so important that judges be appointed to the Supreme Court, and other regional courts, that will uphold the Constitution and not find things in that document that are not there. The prior court that passed on Roe v Wade said that privacy was the issue here, but nowhere in the Constitution do you find that. If the Congress could just simply outlaw abortion, it will not happen when we have a Democrat majority.

I hope this helps. If others on the forum know differently, or if I have given incorrect information, I am sure they will correct me.
President Clinton did not veto that bill when it came before him, President Bush did.

Got the facts wrong. Clinton vetoed the bill Bush signed the bill.

Yet again, the Democratic Party proves to be the abortion party.
 
Of course.

Can you think of any crime that is completely eliminated when there is law that forbids it.

We want the crime to be punishable by law when it’s committed. That’s the whole point.
But I thought that the point of people voting Republican was to “end abortion.” I didn’t know the whole issue was about civil punishment (which should be what, by the way - throwing women in jail?)

My point is that overturning Roe v. Wade does not end abortion.
 
But I thought that the point of people voting Republican was to “end abortion.” I didn’t know the whole issue was about civil punishment (which should be what, by the way - throwing women in jail?)

My point is that overturning Roe v. Wade does not end abortion.
Everyone concedes that point. That isn’t the end of the issue. Roe v Wade would only be a first step in regards to making abortion illegal. After it is overturned, states can pass their own laws and/or we can continue to work towards an Amendment to the Constitution protecting the unborn.
 
But I thought that the point of people voting Republican was to “end abortion.” I didn’t know the whole issue was about civil punishment (which should be what, by the way - throwing women in jail?)
How is it less of a crime to kill a child in January than to kill that same child the following December?

Is not the unborn child as human as you and I?
My point is that overturning Roe v. Wade does not end abortion.
Neither does passing laws against rape, murder, and bank robbery end those crimes. Do you suggest we ought then to repeal those laws?
 
Laws can accomplish little or nothing if people’s hearts are not turned against abortion. That is where the fight needs to be concentrated.

It may be that making abortion illegal would cause some modest reduction in the practice but I highly doubt it. There are too many ways abortion could still be performed in this day and age (for example self-induced in the privacy of one’s home using drugs bought from overseas/via the internet/on the black market).

I’ll never tire of saying this, and any on this board who have lived in places or times where abortion was illegal can testify to this: people who really want an abortion will risk punishment (and even their very lives) to have one. The idea is to convert mindsets so that people do not desire abortion or feel forced into it.

This fascination we Catholics have with linking abortion, law and politics really does not acknowledge the realities of life in our millennium.
 
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