Why we need a TLM in every parish!

[Spiller]

I’m not seeing it as “miniscule.” I’m seeing something small that is growing exponentially. It has potential to be utterly huge…

Don’t hold your breath.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Actually where I grew up, during the Latin Mass period, each ethnic group had its own parish and people didn’t really celebrate mass in parishes with other backgrounds. It wasn’t until the demographics started changing in the mid-60’s that people of different backgrounds came together in parishes in my area. By then the Mass was in English.

I’m not seein a whole lot of changes then. It’s pretty much a “Anglno” Mass and a “Latino” one. The two never really meet.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Besides,

The Latinos can understand Latin better than we can, since their native language is more thoroughly based on it.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Don’t hold your breath.

:hypno:

 

[invocation]

The Latinos can understand Latin better than we can, since their native language is more thoroughly based on it.

does that mean all those people clamoring for a latin mass are going to start attending romance language masses now? it would bring them closer to latin.

 

[Joannm]

I’m not seein a whole lot of changes then. It’s pretty much a “Anglno” Mass and a “Latino” one. The two never really meet.

My point is that even when the mass was in Latin there was still this separation of ethnic groups. Irish would go to a predominatly Irish parish, Italitans to an Italian one, Germans to another. It didn’t matter that whatever parish they went to the mass was all in Latin. So having mass in Latin didn’t really bring unity.

 

[Phemie]

In my local NO Parish there is currently a major battle between those who want the Mass to be celebrated in English and those who want the Mass to be celebrated in French. It’s a terrible situation and it’s dividing the Parish.

Just one more reason for the Roman Rite to use one language in all places. The official language of the Church…Latin:thumbsup:

Is there only one Mass? There is a solution if your pastor is bilingual and that’s having English Mass one month and French Mass the next. One year the Midnight Mass is in French, the next in English. That’s how it worked for years in my hometown parish and the parishes in the neighboring town. Sometimes we had bilingual Masses, particularly at times like Christmas and the Triduum.

In recent years my area of the diocese was divided into the English and the French pastoral charges. So my hometown parish is no longer bilingual but French and the neighboring town which had 2 bilingual parishes now has 1 English & 1 French, each pastor responsible for 2 or 3 other parishes that celebrate in the same language. It helps with priest distribution since you can put a unilingual Anglophone priest in charge of only English parishes.

 

[He_Man]

Talk to our good friend brotherholf here - he could tell you about the good old days when, in spite of all having Latin masses, there were still ‘Italian’, ‘Irish’, or ‘German’ or what have you Catholic parishes - sometimes the churches were ACROSS THE ROAD from each other - and the twain didn’t often meet.

See a parish isn’t just about the Mass - the Italians will want to have their St Joseph’s day celebrations for example - mostly in Italian of course, the Irish will celebrate St Patrick’s Day and so on. There’s loads of Catholic cultural overlay in different countries that does NOT translate across nationalities.

Which means it wasn’t being properly applied.

That is a separate argument. You could use THAT to argue against the NO as well. Look at how segregated Churches are, even today.

Spanish masses, Catholic minorities attending mostly segregated Churches.

I went to Church in hoboken on a business trip recently, and didn’t have a clue what was going on (aside from knowing the Mass); it was entirely in Italian. Even the homily!

Besides, referencing anecdotes from when the TLM was the norm from 30-50 years ago isn’t relevant today.

The fact is, it would be a lot easier for me to attaned ANY church if I could speak the language, and as it is now, I cannot.

 

[He_Man]

Actually where I grew up, during the Latin Mass period, each ethnic group had its own parish and people didn’t really celebrate mass in parishes with other backgrounds. It wasn’t until the demographics started changing in the mid-60’s that people of different backgrounds came together in parishes in my area. By then the Mass was in English.

Which is an indictment of the sgregationist nature of the culture back then, not of TLM.

Today, it would be nice to go anywhere and know what is going on.

 

[LilyM]

Which means it wasn’t being properly applied.

That is a separate argument. You could use THAT to argue against the NO as well. Look at how segregated Churches are, even today.

Spanish masses, Catholic minorities attending mostly segregated Churches.

I went to Church in hoboken on a business trip recently, and didn’t have a clue what was going on (aside from knowing the Mass); it was entirely in Italian. Even the homily!

Besides, referencing anecdotes from when the TLM was the norm from 30-50 years ago isn’t relevant today.

The fact is, it would be a lot easier for me to attaned ANY church if I could speak the language, and as it is now, I cannot.

And? If you were attending a Latin Mass in a community where the lingua franca (and hence the readings and homily) wasn’t a tongue you understood you’d be in almost precisely the same boat as you are now.

I’ve got to comment on this one - aside from knowing the Mass? Excuse me, isn’t the Mass what you were there for? And you brush the fact that you knew and thus could follow it away like it’s some minor side issue?

If you can follow it, and maybe make the responses quietly in English instead of whatever language, then it’s achieved its purpose.

I’ve been to masses in German, Portuguese, Chinese, Croatian, none of which languages I speak - but I knew very well which prayers were being said at any time. Having attended Mass regularly and actually paid attention to what was being said I could probably make a fair fist of saying Mass myself. I made the responses in English, read the readings and Gospel in English from my Bible and didn’t miss out on much at all.

 

[He_Man]

And? If you were attending a Latin Mass in a community where the lingua franca (and hence the readings and homily) wasn’t a tongue you understood you’d be in almost precisely the same boat as you are now.

I’ve got to comment on this one - aside from knowing the Mass? Excuse me, isn’t the Mass what you were there for? And you brush the fact that you knew and thus could follow it away like it’s some minor side issue?

If you can follow it, and maybe make the responses quietly in English instead of whatever language, then it’s achieved its purpose.

I’ve been to masses in German, Portuguese, Chinese, Croatian, none of which languages I speak - but I knew very well which prayers were being said at any time. Having attended Mass regularly and actually paid attention to what was being said I could probably make a fair fist of saying Mass myself. I made the responses in English, read the readings and Gospel in English from my Bible and didn’t miss out on much at all.

Whatever. Way to misrepresent what I was saying.

I’ll type it slower. When I go to McDonalds, and the menu is in a foreign language, I can’t understand it. When I read a book in a foreigh language, I can’t understand it. When I attend Mass in a foreign language, the only way I am able to know what is going on is because I have been to thousands of Masses.

Besides the fact you glossed over the part about it being a business trip. I didn’t know it was an Italian mas, as there was no inidication, and I don’t know my way around Hoboken.

How is that relevant to the TLM? If you enjoy hearing masses in languages you don’t understand, go ahead. All I was saying was that it would have been nice if there was a universal tongue for Masses. It is nice to understand the homily, though that is why I am there obviously.

I could probably recite the Mass from memory in its entirety, what with the many many years of Catholic education i got. What does that have to do with enjoying a Mass where you can understand the actual words?

If you enjoy it so much, go attend more masses in languages you don’t understand. or a latin mass. Though you won’t be able to respond in the vernacular of the Church, you’ll enjoy knowing what is going in English.

 

[mysitar]

I don’t have any objection to the TLM, and I think ideally its a good idea, what you’re suggesting, but I’ve always felt it should be by popular demand. For example, 75% of the crowd at my chruch is under 18. We live in a hick town, and most of us go to the same school (the others go to Catholic schools in Pittsburgh), which does not offer Latin (like some of the neighboring schools do). What I’m getting at is no one would be able to participate because we wouldn’t understand the Mass. I think to make the Mass more worthwhile, you need to be able to participate and fully mean what you say at Mass. If a church like mine switches to TLM, how could we accomplish this? So basically, if my church did offer it, there wouldn’t be that great of a response. Now if it were like the church I used to belong to when we lived in the city, where 75% of the population lived before Vatican II, i’d think it be a better idea, since there would be more interest.

 

[palmas85]

But it IS a Mass done in a foreign language for the benefit of one group, yes?

One group? This is a very naive statement. Most Latinos would disagree with this line of thinking 100%. There is little in common between most Spanish speaking groups from different countries other than the language, which is very different from country to country anyway. Mexicans by and large would not be comfortable at the average Cuban Mass and the Cubans in turn uncomfortable at the average Bolivian Mass.and vice versa, irregardless as to they were both in Spanish.

It is interesting to note that apparently many feel that the, how should I put it, less educated types would be totally lost at a Latin Mass and might even leave the Church because of it? The plain truth of the matter is these lower class groups, particularly Mexicans and Guatemalans are leaving the Church in droves and converting to either cults such as that of La Santisima Muerte or more often Evangelical Protestantism. The Church has not as yet found a way to effectively stop this exodus, vernacular Mass or not.

 

[LilyM]

Whatever. Way to misrepresent what I was saying.

I’ll type it slower. When I go to McDonalds, and the menu is in a foreign language, I can’t understand it. When I read a book in a foreigh language, I can’t understand it. When I attend Mass in a foreign language, the only way I am able to know what is going on is because I have been to thousands of Masses.

Besides the fact you glossed over the part about it being a business trip. I didn’t know it was an Italian mas, as there was no inidication, and I don’t know my way around Hoboken.

How is that relevant to the TLM? If you enjoy hearing masses in languages you don’t understand, go ahead. All I was saying was that it would have been nice if there was a universal tongue for Masses. It is nice to understand the homily, though that is why I am there obviously.

I could probably recite the Mass from memory in its entirety, what with the many many years of Catholic education i got. What does that have to do with enjoying a Mass where you can understand the actual words?

If you enjoy it so much, go attend more masses in languages you don’t understand. or a latin mass. Though you won’t be able to respond in the vernacular of the Church, you’ll enjoy knowing what is going in English.

If you go to McDonalds in every country of course you will know the menu - ie what they have on offer - what they serve is the same everywhere around the world! Sheesh, it’s not like Mickey D’s sells mushu pork in one country and filet steak in the next, it’s always Big Macs, fish sandwiches, fries and the rest. Same with the Mass, the Missal is the same everywhere, so are the readings.

If you know the Mass so well then how come you’re saying you don’t understand? Of course you do. Remember before the days of the printing press there were very few, if any, Latin-vernacular Missals. 99% of people who could read in those days could read Latin, so vernacular Missals weren’t necessary.

So people often didn’t understand the Latin either. Are you saying this meant they didn’t understand the Mass though? That knowing every word of all the prayers is necessary to understanding the Mass? Even in the NO there are plenty of prayers that are said silently by the priest, so it would be an impossibility to do so anyway.