Why won’t all other Christians recognize the Roman Catholic Pope as their leader?

[Jon_S]

(Luke 22:7) “Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover (lamb) must be killed.”

Jesus was the Lamb of God.
Unleaven symbolizes sinlessness when speaking of the bread.
How can you say that God did not relate the Passover to Jesus?

I never said there are not parallels. What I am saying is that Jesus equated the very same flesh he was commanding his disciples to eat to the same flesh that would be offered on the cross. If both are the same, then they are either both symbolic or they are not.

“Equating” and “relating” are not the same thing.

Do you believe that Christ actually died on the cross?

 

[brkn1]

Do you believe that Christ actually died on the cross?

The Lord Jesus Christ most certainly died on the cross as the once-for-all sacrifice to bear the entire penalty for “the sins of many”.
By Jesus’ dying on the cross, those appointed unto salvation by the will of God, “are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE (for all)”.

“But this man (Jesus), after He had offered ONE sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God” (Hebrews 10:12)

“For by ONE offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

 

[onenow1]

Hi, brkn1

QUOTE>brkn1.I accept either word without feeling the need to add to the meaning or re-translating it.

That’s where your wrong brkn.
Example> If itold you it was raining cats and dogs outside would you believe that ? of course not ! You would merely know it was raining hard, you have just translated the meaning of this expression, in our common language, in our culture.

Translation within that culture means a great deal for proper understnding . It’s not translation of the word it;s understaning of the culture of the times and there concept in expression.

Peace, OneNow1

PS I’m getting weary, God bless bkrrn1.

 

[brkn1]

Hi, brkn1

QUOTE>brkn1.I accept either word without feeling the need to add to the meaning or re-translating it.

That’s where your wrong brkn.
Example> If itold you it was raining cats and dogs outside would you believe that ? of course not ! You would merely know it was raining hard, you have just translated the meaning of this expression, in our common language, in our culture.

Translation within that culture means a great deal for proper understnding . It’s not translation of the word it;s understaning of the culture of the times and there concept in expression.

Peace, OneNow1

PS I’m getting weary, God bless bkrrn1.

Hi OneNow1,

I also am getting weary.

I agree with your statement on figures of speech.

When Jesus said “I am the vine,…”, we know that He was not saying that He was an actual grape vine.

When Paul called Christ a Rock (1Cor.10:4), he qualified it as a spiritual Rock. Jesus is not a literal rock anymore than the claim that He is literal bread. He is spiritual bread though.

Since this thread is originally about who the Rock is, I will go back to David’s (Psalm 62:6):

“He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be moved.”

I don’t need any substitute rocks. The indwelling Holy Spirit has shown me in God’s Word the only true Rock. The Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of Redemtion is all that I need for salvation and my faith will rest in Jesus alone, not a fallible man.

 

[Jon_S]

The Lord Jesus Christ most certainly died on the cross as the once-for-all sacrifice to bear the entire penalty for “the sins of many”.
By Jesus’ dying on the cross, those appointed unto salvation by the will of God, “are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE (for all)”.

“But this man (Jesus), after He had offered ONE sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God” (Hebrews 10:12)

“For by ONE offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

I agree with ALL of those quotes from Scripture, and so does the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, but you still have not addressed the Scripture I am referring to:

John 6:51
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

Jesus equates (not relates) this flesh we are supposed to eat as the same flesh that he sacrifices on the cross for the life of the world. If one is only figurative or symbolic, then the other must be also. Which is it?

 

[brkn1]

God never equated the Jewish Passover to His actual flesh and blood that would be sacrificed on the cross.

“I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” John 6:51

If “God never equated the Jewish passover to His actual flesh and blood that would be sacrificed on the cross”, then how do you explain the following verse?

(1 Corinthians 5:7) “…For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:”

 

[Jon_S]

If “God never equated the Jewish passover to His actual flesh and blood that would be sacrificed on the cross”, then how do you explain the following verse?

(1 Corinthians 5:7) “…For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:”

Again, that is a “relation” and not an “equation.”

Christ says that the very same flesh (His flesh) that we are to eat IS the same flesh that died on the cross. How do you explain that? Is it literal or figurative? It cannot be both.

I agree with you that the parallels to the Passover are symbolic; but when I read John 6:51, I do not see how Christ’s flesh can be understood as symbolic when he equates it to his own physical body crucified. There is no symbolism there. He says directly that it is the exact same thing.

Anyway, You and I are obviously not going to see eye to eye on this, and it would take me more time than I have right now to explain how this is directly related to the vocation of the Apostles and their successors.

If you wish to continue on the Eucharist, we should probably move it to another thread.

I have enjoyed talking to you and I will keep you in my prayers. Please do the same for me.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I agree that the Lord’s Supper is an act of thanksgiving in remembrance of what Jesus did for us when He died to redeem us with His precious Blood.

The High Priest had to be a Perfect Man and Divine at the same time. Earthly priests do not qualify. They are not perfect or divine. The Bible never describes any man as such except for Jesus.

The bible doesnt make a man a Priest of God, only God ordains a man a Priest, and God has revealed this in his word, from the old testament perfected levitical priesthood according to old covenant. There has never been a covenant of God without his priest on earth to administer it. Starting with Adam the first High priest, His two sons Cain and Abel, Melchizedeck who offered sacrifice in the form of bread and wine. Before passing judgement on God’s priest on earth, maybe you should find out more about them. Jesus has a new priesthood that lasts forever

Hebrews 7:11 If, then, perfection came through the levitical priesthood, on the basis of which the people received the law, what need would there still have been for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not reckoned according to the order of Aaron?
12
When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well.
24
**but he, because he remains forever, has a priesthood that does not pass away. **
25
17 Therefore, he is always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them.

Just cause the bible tells us we have a high priest in heaven doesnt mean Jesus powers are not administered to his people on earth from his everlasting priesthood.

With out this active priesthood of Jesus Christ that remains forever, Christianity would not have survived pass the first century. We owe thanks for our Christian faith to the Apostles, Priests,Bishops, and Popes along with their Martyredom for these and the deaconette, that christianity has survived through the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Why and who do you think Jesus was giving the authority and command to offer sacrifice to God, by “Do this remembrance of me” Jesus established a perpetual sacrifice that replaced the old animal sacrifices. Jesus ordained his Apostles his Priest in his high Priesthood, that lasts forever and has lasted for 2 milenium and will still be here when he returns, finding his priesthood according to the Prophecy of the prophet Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

For 2000 years from the rising of the sun to its setting the Eucharistic sacrifice of Jesus body, and blood has been given in God’s name and this pure, perfect, holy, undefiled, eternal offering is made by his Priests in that blessed name among the nations our high priest Jesus Christ, by his body the one Holy Catholic Apostolic church. This prophecy as well as many others is fulfilled today in the Catholic church.

 

[brkn1]

Again, that is a “relation” and not an “equation.”

Christ says that the very same flesh (His flesh) that we are to eat IS the same flesh that died on the cross. How do you explain that? Is it literal or figurative? It cannot be both.

I agree with you that the parallels to the Passover are symbolic; but when I read John 6:51, I do not see how Christ’s flesh can be understood as symbolic when he equates it to his own physical body crucified. There is no symbolism there. He says directly that it is the exact same thing.

Anyway, You and I are obviously not going to see eye to eye on this, and it would take me more time than I have right now to explain how this is directly related to the vocation of the Apostles and their successors.

If you wish to continue on the Eucharist, we should probably move it to another thread.

I have enjoyed talking to you and I will keep you in my prayers. Please do the same for me.

Hi Jon_S,

I agree that it might be best to discuss the Eucharist on one of the other threads.
It has been enjoyable and educational for me also.
I will pray for you too.
In Christ, brkn1

 

[brkn1]

The bible doesnt make a man a Priest of God, only God ordains a man a Priest, and God has revealed this in his word, from the old testament perfected levitical priesthood according to old covenant. There has never been a covenant of God without his priest on earth to administer it. Starting with Adam the first High priest, His two sons Cain and Abel, Melchizedeck who offered sacrifice in the form of bread and wine. Before passing judgement on God’s priest on earth, maybe you should find out more about them. Jesus has a new priesthood that lasts forever

Hebrews 7:11 If, then, perfection came through the levitical priesthood, on the basis of which the people received the law, what need would there still have been for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not reckoned according to the order of Aaron?
12
When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well.
24
**but he, because he remains forever, has a priesthood that does not pass away. **
25
17 Therefore, he is always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them.

Just cause the bible tells us we have a high priest in heaven doesnt mean Jesus powers are not administered to his people on earth from his everlasting priesthood.

With out this active priesthood of Jesus Christ that remains forever, Christianity would not have survived pass the first century. We owe thanks for our Christian faith to the Apostles, Priests,Bishops, and Popes along with their Martyredom for these and the deaconette, that christianity has survived through the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Why and who do you think Jesus was giving the authority and command to offer sacrifice to God, by “Do this remembrance of me” Jesus established a perpetual sacrifice that replaced the old animal sacrifices. Jesus ordained his Apostles his Priest in his high Priesthood, that lasts forever and has lasted for 2 milenium and will still be here when he returns, finding his priesthood according to the Prophecy of the prophet Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

For 2000 years from the rising of the sun to its setting the Eucharistic sacrifice of Jesus body, and blood has been given in God’s name and this pure, perfect, holy, undefiled, eternal offering is made by his Priests in that blessed name among the nations our high priest Jesus Christ, by his body the one Holy Catholic Apostolic church. This prophecy as well as many others is fulfilled today in the Catholic church.

No man, but the God Man Jesus, is qualified to be a priest after the order of Melchisedec, since like the Levitical priests, all other men are subject to death. (Heb. 7:23-25)

I need no other Mediator than Jesus, Who already has completely and perfectly offered the only sacrifice necessary to save us; “…for this He did once, when He offered up Himself.”

When Jesus said “It is finished:…”, there could then be no such thing as an “eternal offering”.

 

[Jon_S]

No man, but the God Man Jesus, is qualified to be a priest after the order of Melchisedec, since like the Levitical priests, all other men are subject to death. (Heb. 7:23-25)

I need no other Mediator than Jesus, Who already has completely and perfectly offered the only sacrifice necessary to save us; “…for this He did once, when He offered up Himself.”

When Jesus said “It is finished:…”, there could then be no such thing as an “eternal offering”.

Sorry. I couldn’t leave this one alone…

What was finished? Jesus had not been resurrected yet…

Rom. 4:25
“He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.”

1 Peter 2:5
“you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi Jimmy,

I did take the time to look up the Roman Catholic translation of (Luke 22:19) in the Douay Bible…You can not get around the true meaning of either remembrance or commemoration without being inventive.

Hello brkn1,

Luke 22:19
19 7 Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.”

---

7 19c-20] Which will be given . . . do this in memory of me: these words are omitted in some important Western text manuscripts and a few Syriac manuscripts. Other ancient text types, including the oldest papyrus manuscript of Luke dating from the late second or early third century, contain the longer reading presented here. The Lucan account of the words of institution of the Eucharist bears a close resemblance to the words of institution in the Pauline tradition (see 1 Cor 11:23-26). See also the notes on Matthew 26:26-29; 26:27-28; and Mark 14:22-24.

---

1 Cor 11:23-26
23 11 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24 and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Matthew 26:26-29
26 14 15 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you,
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
29 17 I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.”

Mark 14:22-24.
22 7 While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body.”
23 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
24 He said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed 8 for many.

---

I hope this helps.

Peace

 

[brkn1]

Sorry. I couldn’t leave this one alone…

What was finished? Jesus had not been resurrected yet…

Rom. 4:25
“He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.”

1 Peter 2:5
“you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”

The one perfect and complete sacrifice to redeem us was finished by Jesus Christ on the cross.
The later resurrection confirms that one sacrifice as final and completely effective.
Jesus rose in glory, never to suffer again and He sits in rest at the right hand of the Father right now to indicate that God’s work of salvation is finished. Jesus still acts as our Mediator, but that is for the sanctification of those whom the Father gave Jesus by the gift of eternal salvation. There is nothing (no works) we do to earn or merit that gift of salvation or it would not be a gift (grace) and the saved could boast as the Pharisee did against the publican.

Jesus is not an eternal or permanent victim of any further sacrifice. He only suffered once (It is finished!) for the salvation of all those who will be saved by God’s grace. Jesus needed to shed His Redeeming Blood only once to complete that work of salvation. There is no remission of sin without the actual shedding of blood during that sacrifice, so there can be no further sacrifices for sin as the RCC seems to believe.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

No man, but the God Man Jesus, is qualified to be a priest after the order of Melchisedec, since like the Levitical priests, all other men are subject to death. (Heb. 7:23-25)

I need no other Mediator than Jesus, Who already has completely and perfectly offered the only sacrifice necessary to save us; “…for this He did once, when He offered up Himself.”

When Jesus said “It is finished:…”, there could then be no such thing as an “eternal offering”.

**I take it brkn that you dont believe that Jesus Christ did not leave instructions and conditions for his Church (HIs body of earth) to minister his teachings and Gospel message to the World? I take it that you dont believe in the eternal priesthood that God ordained and the perpetual sacrifices that must be fulfilled on earth as it is in heaven? What is your take on this, please remember Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forevermore. Remember when God’s word commands, this must be a perpetual sacrifice, you dont think God can lie do you? you dont think God can change his mind do you? Tell me brkn are you familiar what Jesus did on the cross, other than save us from our sins? or is this all you know that Jesus has done? Please I would like to hear your response?

I can show you through sacred scripture without sacred Tradition that God intended for their to be a Priesthood in his stead on earth. Not only a priesthood, but an eternal priesthood that never ends. Do you know the functions of why their is a priesthood in the bible, and why God instituted the priesthood?**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

No man, but the God Man Jesus, is qualified to be a priest after the order of Melchisedec, since like the Levitical priests, all other men are subject to death. (Heb. 7:23-25)

brkn1, I have listed some New Testament scriptures that speak about an ongoing ministry that has replace the old covenant ministry, and who it is that posseses the myteries of God and who hands them on.

Matthew 13:11
4 He said to them in reply, "Because knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been granted to you, but to them it has not been granted.

Luke1: 2 just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and **ministers of the word have handed them down to us, **4 so that you may realize the certainty of the teachings you have received.

1Cor.3:5 What is Apollos, after all, and what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord assigned each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. 7 Therefore, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who causes the growth. 8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor. 9 **FOR WE ARE GOD’S CO-WORKERS; YOU ARE GOD’S FIELD, GOD’S BUILDING.**10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, 11 **for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. **12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire. 16 **Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? **17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you are, is holy.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in the eyes of God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own ruses,” 22
Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or the present or the future: all belong to you, 23 and you to Christ, and Christ to God.

1Cor.4:1 **Thus should one regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. **

1Cor.4:15 Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, **for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. **16 Therefore, I urge you, be imitators of me. 17 For this reason I am sending you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord; he will remind you of my ways in Christ (Jesus), just as I teach them everywhere in every church.

2Cor.3:2 You are our letter, 2 written on our hearts, known and read by all, 3 shown to be a letter of Christ administered by us, written not in ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets that are hearts of flesh. 4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that of ourselves we are qualified to take credit for anything as coming from us; rather, our qualification comes from God, 6
**WHO HAS INDEED QUALIFIED US AS MINISTERS OF A NEW COVENANT, **not of letter but of spirit; for the letter brings death, but the Spirit gives life. 5 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, was so glorious that the Israelites could not look intently at the face of Moses because of its glory that was going to fade, 8 **how much more 8 will the ministry of the Spirit be glorious? **9 For if the ministry of condemnation was glorious, **the ministry of righteousness will abound much more in glory. **10 Indeed, what was endowed with glory has come to have no glory in this respect because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was going to fade was glorious, **how much more will what endures be glorious. **12
Therefore, since we have such hope, 9 **we act very boldly **13 and not like Moses, 10 who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites could not look intently at the cessation of what was fading. 14 Rather, their thoughts were rendered dull, for to this present day 11 the same veil remains unlifted when they read the old covenant, because through Christ it is taken away. 15
To this day, in fact, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts, 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, 12 and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

I need no other Mediator than Jesus, Who already has completely and perfectly offered the only sacrifice necessary to save us; “…for this He did once, when He offered up Himself.”

This Scripture does not prove that Jesus does not have a priesthood. Can you produce such a scripture?

When Jesus said “It is finished:…”, there could then be no such thing as an “eternal offering”.

Would you call God a liar if he commanded a perpetual sacrifice? does perpetual have a different meaning to you than eternal sacrifice? Ask me for the scriptures if your interested on what God commands, if he is the same yesterday, today and forever more.
Peace be with you

 

[brkn1]

Would you call God a liar if he commanded a perpetual sacrifice? does perpetual have a different meaning to you than eternal sacrifice? Ask me for the scriptures if your interested on what God commands, if he is the same yesterday, today and forever more.
Peace be with you

You can not point to any scriptural “perpetual sacrifice for sins” other than the one and only sacrifice of redemption that Jesus performed on the cross. Jesus did it all Himself and no man was a co-worker in that perfect work of God.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You can not point to any scriptural “perpetual sacrifice for sins” other than the one and only sacrifice of redemption that Jesus performed on the cross. Jesus did it all Himself and no man was a co-worker in that perfect work of God.

We have a confusion about what Jesus did which is true once and for all! and what is the eternal sacrifice. There is no repeat in this sacrifice of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. We are not discussing the once and for all Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

What we are discussing is His eternal priesthood and why Jesus is our High priest. To be King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Prophets of Prophets, and High Priest of all priests, requires an action. This action is done eternally. That is why we have a Lamb as though slain in heaven describes in the apocalypse, this is the eternal lamb of God who offers an eternal Sacrifice for our sins. The eternal Sacrifice of the eternal High Priest of Jesus never ends it is perpetual, an everlasting priesthood.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You can not point to any scriptural “perpetual sacrifice for sins” other than the one and only sacrifice of redemption that Jesus performed on the cross. Jesus did it all Himself and no man was a co-worker in that perfect work of God.

You are forgetting that Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets as well as redeemed us from our sins in his body and blood. This Sacrifice that Jesus did, not only freed us from our sins but he fulfilled every letter of the Law.

Now What is the letter of Law that Jesus fulfilled? When God gave Moses the Law, and Aaron to be his high priest to offer sacrifices for the atonement of sins and to celebrate the covenant God made with Moses, these were to be perpetual sacrifices and meals in the form of a Lamb (Jesus), bread (body of Jesus), libation of wine (Jesus blood). Jesus does all these things that is why it is done once and for all, and it is perpetual because Jesus lIves and is eternal. That is why Jesus gives us his body to eat and his blood to drink, so that we can celebrate the wedding feast of the Lamb of God in the new and everlasting covenant. Jesus is all of what was, what is, what will be.

 

[Desire]

It might have something to do with this JFK/Pope John Paul II newsletter at this link pastorrandyshupe.com/classics-newsletters.php

Please look it over and consider. I’m Jewish and I’m also Irish Roman Catholic. I love all Christians and Jews who love the truth.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It might have something to do with this JFK/Pope John Paul II newsletter at this link pastorrandyshupe.com/classics-newsletters.php

Please look it over and consider. I’m Jewish and I’m also Irish Roman Catholic. I love all Christians and Jews who love the truth.

If you are Jewish then how come you dont recognize the Roman Catholic church as being the Church of Jesus Christ (a jew). Because the Jewish religious community has publicly announced that the church of Jesus Christ is the Roman Catholic church, and declared it in a document, and handed it to Pope John Paul the great.

Unless you are not really a Jew? and about your Irish catholicity I find this hard to believe. Because by your comments you have no ounce of Catholic love to display, for a Catholilc love consists of sacrifice, not offend.