H
- Status
T
tiemry
Guest
I don’t pray the Rosary, as it is repetitive prayer and maybe because I have a bit of ADD, my mind wanders off. But I do pray the Our Father and The Glory Be, often.
My prayers are normally thoughtful heartful prayers, in my own words.
C
Cinette
Guest
My husband says I am ADD! (I suspect he may be right). For years I felt that it was pointless praying the Rosary because my mind wanders so much. But then it also wanders at Mass - if I pray for someone my mind goes out to that person…oh I struggle! Funny thing though, after I did a Life in the Spirit Seminar things changed and my prayers included praise also and when I pray for myself I no longer ask for things (that gets my mind wandering all over the place) I just say “May your will be done”. Another thing which happened after the LISS was that everytime I prayed “Lamb of God…” at Mass it would bring tears to my eyes and on a couple of occasions when my mind was wondering it was jerked back to the present at the “Lamb of God…”
Several months ago my husband and I began praying the Rosary every day and most times I manage to focus on the meditations. So many people say it is such a powerful prayer and I love our beloved Mother so much. When we pray the Rosary we are actually praying WITH Mary to God. My husband is a convert (from atheism 4 years ago) and he has no problem with Mary and the Rosary.
Mary is our heavenly Mother.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Jesus revealed to us that we are linked with the living saints who have gone on before us.
You’ve taken my “best we can do” out of context. I’m referring to our supernatural link with the saints in heaven. Your pantheistic denial of human mediation in God’s plan of salvation is clearly unbiblical. The Saints aren’t deified when we petition them with our prayers to the Father. We are a family of brethren who support one another with our prayers to our heavenly Father. The holy ones in heaven make excellent advocates for us because of their nearness to God.
I’m not begging the question, you are, by presuming the apostles would have continued to exercise their divine office in heaven if the Communion of Saints was a reality. And since the divine office is exercised by the living on earth, you conclude there is no Communion of Saints in heaven who pray for us and are united with us. That is circular reasoning. You also reach a false conclusion by starting on a false, unverifiable assumption: that everything true pertaining to matters of faith must be explicitly revealed or recorded in Scripture. Yet Scripture doesn’t teach that. On the contrary, “the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.” By the way, Peter, Paul, and the Apostles are also members of the common priesthood of all believers in the kingdom of heaven. Priests intercede for others, and they continue to do so in heaven with their prayers. This is biblical:
(cf. 1 Pet 2:5; Rev 1:6; 5: 8,10).
Although there is no explicit record of the practice of praying to the departed saints in heaven, there is enough implicit scriptural support for it. It was a practice of the early Church, founded on the Apostles, by the start of the third century. Since you are outside the Church which was founded by Christ, severed from the historic Christian faith, and reject her Apostolic teaching authority, naturally your only course is to elevate Scripture as the final authority and arbiter of the truth. The net result is the chaos of faith and morals that we find in a divided Protestant movement. Martin Luther eventually rejected his belief in the Communion of Saints once he formulated his unbiblical doctrine of Justification. His motto was: “Christ is for all; each man is for himself.”
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as already being of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of saints praying with him.”
Clement of Alexandria, ‘Miscellanies 7:12’ (A.D. 208)
PAX :harp:
S
SIA
Guest
Don’t assume too much about all Protestants here. I was in complete agreement with you on everything you said about the Communion of Saints until you started into the same old song dance about those who those who reject the Apostolic succession of Christ’s one Church and those who choose to be outside of her, blah blah blah and Luther was an abomination and so on and so forth. It’s getting very redundant and unprosperous to keep beating this same dead horse. Let’s concentrate on our likenesses instead of our differences because that’s the only way that we will truly overcome our divisions for Christ.
N
Non_Serviam
Guest
My apologies if I misunderstood your use of “best we can do”. It upset me to read such a thing and I’m glad to hear it was a misunderstanding on my part.
To clarify again: I don’t deny that dead saints are part of the church, I don’t deny that dead saints pray, I don’t deny human mediation, although I do have a problem with how some of it is attributed to certain individuals in Catholicism (another topic for another thread).
I dostate that in the writings we have from the Apostolic age and those written recently after it, we have no record of the Apostles praying to dead saints or encouraging others to do so. I believe I’ve communicated this given your statement that “there is no explicit record” of such.
I’ll grant it was the practice of some in the 3rd century church, but there still appears to be a paucity of evidence for it compared to many other practices-it doesn’t appear to have any degree of universality. I will concur that by the 5th century it is quite well established and documented throughout the Catholic church. Newman attributes this to development of doctrine, if one believes in that.
As to impugning my methodology, I asked for extrabiblical sources pointing to the Apostles being involved in this practice-did I get quotations from the Didache, Barnabas, Clement of Rome?
No because there’s nothing there. Even the later quotation from Methodius makes no link with the Apostles-there is simply no attempt made to link this practice to the Apostles until centuries have passed-and even then it is typically church authority that is invoked to justify the practice rather than Apostolic tradition.
As to the current quotation from Clement, he supports dead saints praying, and so do I. What is at fault is the eisegesis of Catholic reasoning that says “If the saints Clement mentions are praying for someone, that person must have asked them to pray”. Reworking an ECF quote to prove what’s being discussed “because the ECF must have meant that since he’s Catholic and believed like I do” isn’t cricket.
Finally, there are two categories of Catholic prayers to dead saints: 1) those that ask for prayer and 2) those that ask for the saint to do something. (Joeseph, Anthony, Jude, etc) These prayers go beyond asking for intercession and ask the saint to perform an action in the material world (sell a house, find a lost item, correct an impossible situation).
Drawing the contrast between communication with saints on earth and those in heaven shows that by asserting we still communicate with them while limiting that communication to specific forms with the others being deemed “not part of their role” now is special pleading and the argument Catholics make is guilty of it.
They are still priests in the common sense, as you correctly assert, but if their role has changed, as you also assert, it is incumbent on you to prove that it still involves taking requests for prayer while excluding all other duties to the community on earth.
As for comparing me with Luther, I’ve acknowledged that you can appeal to current Catholic authority as the reason you do this-it simply isn’t sufficiently convincing for me. It’s the attempt to place the Apostles’ *imprimateur *on the practice that I question.
B
bookgirl32
Guest
Oh my goodness, she’s not just an individual in Catholicism. All of Christianity, all of humanity, needed her to agree to God’s will you know.
Sorry, don’t want to start another thread either, just couldn’t resist.
B
bookgirl32
Guest
This is your own made-up distinction. Being a patron saint of a specific cause does not mean we believe they are the ones actually answering the prayer. Saint Jude is the patron saint of lost causes, that means it is a special vocation of his to pay special attention in his prayers to lost causes, whether he is asked to or not. It does not mean he’s actually saving the lost cause. Saint Joseph is the patron saint of the home, many people ask for his help in prayer when selling a house, that doesn’t mean he’s selling the house, or making sure it gets sold, etc. When we thank them after something has been accomplished, it is for their help, IN PRAYER. The distinction you list above is non-existent.
D
Doolin
Guest
Pardon me, I have not read all the posts in this thread.
I am confused though. while I understand the need for direct proof from the bible on whether it is appropriate to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us. I see objections to it by an appeal to scripture that clearly demonstrates praying to the saints.
Yet… is there anywhere in the NT where the Apostles or others actually pray directly to Jesus?
I am confused though. while I understand the need for direct proof from the bible on whether it is appropriate to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us. I see objections to it by an appeal to scripture that clearly demonstrates praying to the saints.
Yet… is there anywhere in the NT where the Apostles or others actually pray directly to Jesus?
G
Good_Fella
Guest
When St. Ignatius of Antioch was martyred about 110 A.D., two of his companions gathered up his bones by the stealth of night. In the same century, Christians gathered the ashes of St. Polycarp after he was burned alive to venerate his remains. The early Christians perceived that the bodies of the saints were temples of the Holy Spirit through which God worked and acted accordingly on their faith. The function of these relics characterize an indirect medium of petition and communication through a supernatural link with the holy ones in heaven who were believed to have had intercessory power before God by virtue of their faith and holiness. All the same, there doesn’t appear to be any record of the faithful in the post-apostolic age directy supplicating the departed saints for spiritual favours. If it wasn’t a practice by this time, it certainly appears that such a devotion was germinating towards maturity in the custom of collecting relics. We should keep in mind that outside the Sacred Liturgy (the Litany of the Saints) petitioning the saints is a private devotion that is not mandatory to this day. So we shouldn’t expect to find an exhortation to pray to the departed saints in a document as fundamental in faith and morals as the Didache.
One does not have to ask a saint to pray for him in order to benefit from his prayers without a personal request, but since the saints, who are alive in heaven and mystically linked with us in the one body of Christ, do in fact pray for us there is good reason to ask them to. Many Christians ask their priests or ministers to pray for them because of their belief in their influence before God. Meanwhile our clergy do pray for us without having to be asked.
It’s incumbent upon you to show that the ministerial roles of the bishops on earth should necessarily continue in the after life for the intercession of the saints in heaven to be a reality. Catholics have nothing to plead, considering our belief in the intercession of the saints has never had anything to do with the question of a limitation or change of roles between ministerial and common priestly intercession. Anyway, we have biblical evidence that the Divine Mandate of the episcopate to preach and administer the sacraments expired for that apostle with his death or that of his valid successor. But by virtue of their baptism, their role in the common priesthood of all believers has continued, for the kingdom of heaven includes both the living and the departed alive in Christ. The Divine Office itself does not cease with the death of the person who holds it but continues in this life through the former’s chosen successor by “the laying on of hands” (cf. Acts 13:3; 1 Tim 4:14; 5:22; 2 Cor 1: 21-22). This is what we mean by Apostolic Succession.
Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office.
Hebrews 7:23
But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. For I am already being poured out like a libation, and the time has come for my departure.
2 Timothy 4: 5-6
The imprimateur of the apostles is carried on by the transference of the apostolic teaching authority in the Divine Office through succession. For starters, see Clement of Rome, ‘Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98)’.
PAX
N
Non_Serviam
Guest
I wish it were made up, but if you’ll take a little time to consult with some of the sites that have collected prayers to dead saints you’ll see that a number of them specifically ask the saint to do something besides pray. If the doing were the same as praying, then why would both be mentioned?
It’s amusing to me how Catholics don’t bring out this “fine print” on how words don’t actually mean what their plain sense would lead one to understand until someone has taken the time to challenge them on something. Then “pray” doesn’t actually mean “pray” nor does “do” mean “do” nor does “unanimous consent” mean “everyone agrees”.
Rather than encourage everyone to practice doublethink, and learn a bunch of lexical and grammatical exceptions, why not simply flag those prayers and statements that are unclear and stop using them? It won’t solve the problem of a lack of Apostolic warrant for the practice, but at least if you start calling it “asking the saints” instead of “praying to the saints” folks will be less likely to criticize the practice.
N
Non_Serviam
Guest
The statements about Ignatius and Polycarp are interesting-any source for Ignatius so I can read about it and see if there’s any mention of Apostolic mandate? I believe the Polycarp story is mentioned in his Martyrdom unless there’s another source I should consult?When St. Ignatius of Antioch was martyred about 110 A.D., two of his companions gathered up his bones by the stealth of night. In the same century, Christians gathered the ashes of St. Polycarp after he was burned alive to venerate his remains. The early Christians perceived that the bodies of the saints were temples of the Holy Spirit through which God worked and acted accordingly on their faith. The function of these relics characterize an indirect medium of petition and communication through a supernatural link with the holy ones in heaven who were believed to have had intercessory power before God by virtue of their faith and holiness. All the same, there doesn’t appear to be any record of the faithful in the post-apostolic age directy supplicating the departed saints for spiritual favours. If it wasn’t a practice by this time, it certainly appears that such a devotion was germinating towards maturity in the custom of collecting relics. We should keep in mind that outside the Sacred Liturgy (the Litany of the Saints) petitioning the saints is a private devotion that is not mandatory to this day. So we shouldn’t expect to find an exhortation to pray to the departed saints in a document as fundamental in faith and morals as the Didache.
One does not have to ask a saint to pray for him in order to benefit from his prayers without a personal request, but since the saints, who are alive in heaven and mystically linked with us in the one body of Christ, do in fact pray for us there is good reason to ask them to. Many Christians ask their priests or ministers to pray for them because of their belief in their influence before God. Meanwhile our clergy do pray for us without having to be asked.
It’s incumbent upon you to show that the ministerial roles of the bishops on earth should necessarily continue in the after life for the intercession of the saints in heaven to be a reality. Catholics have nothing to plead, considering our belief in the intercession of the saints has never had anything to do with the question of a limitation or change of roles between ministerial and common priestly intercession. Anyway, we have biblical evidence that the Divine Mandate of the episcopate to preach and administer the sacraments expired for that apostle with his death or that of his valid successor. But by virtue of their baptism, their role in the common priesthood of all believers has continued, for the kingdom of heaven includes both the living and the departed alive in Christ. The Divine Office itself does not cease with the death of the person who holds it but continues in this life through the former’s chosen successor by “the laying on of hands” (cf. Acts 13:3; 1 Tim 4:14; 5:22; 2 Cor 1: 21-22). This is what we mean by Apostolic Succession.
Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office.
Hebrews 7:23
But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. For I am already being poured out like a libation, and the time has come for my departure.
2 Timothy 4: 5-6
The imprimateur of the apostles is carried on by the transference of the apostolic teaching authority in the Divine Office through succession. For starters, see Clement of Rome, ‘Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98)’.
PAX
Thank you for acknowledging that there appears to be a lack of Apostolic mandate for this practice-as I’ve said, that isn’t a showstopper for one who accepts the authority of the Magesterium, that in itself provides you with sufficient mandate to do so, but I think you’re starting to understand why those of us who don’t accept that authority, find this to be a practice we don’t feel comfortable participating in.
As for the question of requesting prayer, it seems that being the one with the affirmative argument “Believers are able to pray to departed saints” that the initiative rests there to provide an example of such.
It’s been a few years since my Philosophy classes (from two Jesuits as a point of interest) but even I know better than to accept the challenge to prove a negative statement.
I’m looking forward to discovering the source of the comments about Ignatius and if there is another for Polycarp-given that Polycarp is a favourite ECF of mine for questioning the decision of the Bishop of Rome when it contradicted Apostolic tradition.
H
hays1122
Guest
Steven prayed to Jesus when he was being stoned.
In Acts 7:59"And they stoned Stephen, invoking, and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
The King James version reads like this,“And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
B
bookgirl32
Guest
Why don’t you give me some examples? I usually cosult the actual Church on these things, not random websites.
Do you, by any chance, know what the definition of “pray” is?
It’s simplest form is “to ask”. So, really, asking the saints and praying to the saints is the same thing.
To ask Saint Joseph to do something to help you sell your house is not asking him to do something divine. YOU could do something to help me sell my house.
God uses humans to do His work on earth every day, why is there suddenly some line drawn at humans that are in Heaven?
Do you really think these saints in Heaven would act in discordance with God’s will?
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
I second that…Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Fella forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/viewpost.gif
*Six of the above seven Church Fathers weren’t “Roman”. You should read what they have taught about Mary.
*
Thanks for all these wonderful citations. I have enjoyed reading a number of your fine posts today. May God bless your laborsl:byzsoc:
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Stephen was the first Christian martyr, and when he prayed to Jesus, he was asking our Lord not to hold the sin of murder against his persecutors. Stephen asked Jesus to ratify his forgiveness of the sin of theirs against him. So there are two reasons why Stephen never petitioned any Christian saints and martyrs when he was being stoned to death.
PAX :tiphat:
R
ronl
Guest
I have over 110 of these threads. One thing that speaks out to me is the Rosary as a devotional prayer with the family. With the erosion of the family, I can’t help but wonder what blessings would ensue if more families had devotion time using the rosary as a guide. Debate and questioning is good. but at some point perhaps it takes a leap of faith.
On this point I am envious of those families who have a nightly family rosary devotion. What I would give to see that in my home with two children. I am the only Catholic in my family I am proud to say I have an increasing appreciation for a devotion to Mary.
My family is strained for other reasons besides “religion” and I could only wonder how much healing there could be in such an endeavor (you know the old addage - the family that prays together stays together)
Perhaps this is a suggestion for all struggling families - including mine. As the ol saying goes - nothing ventured. nothing gained
Ron
On this point I am envious of those families who have a nightly family rosary devotion. What I would give to see that in my home with two children. I am the only Catholic in my family I am proud to say I have an increasing appreciation for a devotion to Mary.
My family is strained for other reasons besides “religion” and I could only wonder how much healing there could be in such an endeavor (you know the old addage - the family that prays together stays together)
Perhaps this is a suggestion for all struggling families - including mine. As the ol saying goes - nothing ventured. nothing gained
Ron
C
Cinette
Guest
In the Catholic Church there is a lot of mention of “Mysteries”. Protestants are always looking for “proof” for everything - where is that in the Bible they ask.
The Bible is an amazing testimony of Tradition but it does not constitute all of our Faith where the Oral Tradition is “woven” in the liturgy and practices of our Church. We acknowledge the many mysteries - Incarnation, Trinity, Death and Resurrection, our Blessed Mother’s Immaculate Conception, the Eucharist and many more. It is through Faith that we believe - not that we understand everything, because if we did there would be no need for Faith. We accept the teachings of the Church because we believe and trust in Jesus. We believe and trust in Jesus who gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth - to guide and teach us and we believe in Jesus’ promise to be with us always until the end of the earth. Despite the abuses and the many sins of our clergy, the Spirit has always led us back on track - this is a testimony of His Presence.
We believe in the Communion of Saints - living and dead - dead on earth but very much alive in heaven. So when Protestants speak of us praying to dead saints I feel the need to remind them that if they believe in Eternal Life (which I believe they do) then they must realise that the saints are not “dead”.
If there were no Mysteries there would be no need for Faith. The Rosary is precious and if more families could resume this practice they would find such joy in prayer.
Blessings
Cinette
The Bible is an amazing testimony of Tradition but it does not constitute all of our Faith where the Oral Tradition is “woven” in the liturgy and practices of our Church. We acknowledge the many mysteries - Incarnation, Trinity, Death and Resurrection, our Blessed Mother’s Immaculate Conception, the Eucharist and many more. It is through Faith that we believe - not that we understand everything, because if we did there would be no need for Faith. We accept the teachings of the Church because we believe and trust in Jesus. We believe and trust in Jesus who gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth - to guide and teach us and we believe in Jesus’ promise to be with us always until the end of the earth. Despite the abuses and the many sins of our clergy, the Spirit has always led us back on track - this is a testimony of His Presence.
We believe in the Communion of Saints - living and dead - dead on earth but very much alive in heaven. So when Protestants speak of us praying to dead saints I feel the need to remind them that if they believe in Eternal Life (which I believe they do) then they must realise that the saints are not “dead”.
If there were no Mysteries there would be no need for Faith. The Rosary is precious and if more families could resume this practice they would find such joy in prayer.
Blessings
Cinette
D
Doolin
Guest
I am new… and this seems so cool and wonderful to see so many interested in the discussion of Catholic faith.
Thank you for finding a quote of someone who actually prays directly to Jesus. It looks like it is the only one.
You know it seems odd that Jesus being God and rising from the dead and being alive in heaven doesnt just send us emails, give us phone calls and rule his Church directly from Heaven. Instead everyone has to read the bible and discuss stuff. And when I pray he doesnt just speak in my ear and we have a discussion, although I am sure that is possible.
I keep hearing from certain individuals about “dead” saints.
Now if I understand this right we are talking about dead people that have been “set apart” by God. I am confused though. Does the bible refer to Christians as dead. I always thought they were alive. Paul calls them “asleep”. Where is the term “dead” used in relation to Christians.
Many Blessings
Doolin
- Status