Why would a loving god make us lesser creatures?

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meltzerboy said:
That is the Christian belief, but Judaism has a different view.
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I must confess. I was born and raised Christian, from Church to schooling. I have little knowledge of the Judaism belief as to the fall, or lack thereof, I am interested in knowing more though.
 
Agnostic_Batman said:
I must confess. I was born and raised Christian, from Church to schooling. I have little knowledge of the Judaism belief as to the fall, or lack thereof, I am interested in knowing more though.
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Agnostic Batman, if you like, you can PM me and I’ll tell you about the belief as soon as I can. BTW, welcome to CAF!
 
We were not made this way, nor was the rest of the animal kingdom,
which by our Fall also suffered the same penalty. Suffering stems from
sin, the sin of Satan, who asked the same question as this thread in
his rebellion, and of us, who were beguiled by him.
It’s all gonna be ok in the end. All will be made whole again, that
which is of God will be saved to everlasting life and goodness.
We and all our animal brethren in this world are only creations,
we are not capable of understanding the full mystery of God yet.
 
CeaselessMedik said:
He could have made us equals.
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Thats part of His plan, we are drawn into the Trinity, into the eternal exchange of love, of which our earthly loves are only a prefigurement. His version of equality is His sacrifice for us, He became equal too us in Life and death.
 
meltzerboy said:
Lesser than whom? According to Jewish belief, we are higher than any other creature except G-d Himself, including the angels, since we are the only beings who are given free will. G-d does not demand a loving relationship with us although He enables it. He allows us to choose to love Him, which makes our love so much stronger.
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In Jewish mysticism (i.e., the Tanya from Chabad) doesn’t it state that God created several world, with our world being the absolute lowest. Would not the beings (humans?) living in the upper worlds be higher than us, at least in mental ability?
 
HickmanJosh said:
Thats part of His plan, we are drawn into the Trinity, into the eternal exchange of love, of which our earthly loves are only a prefigurement. His version of equality is His sacrifice for us, He became equal too us in Life and death.
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Why create us separate in the first place?
 
I really have a problem with your original statement, that God has us doing tricks, etc. God is love. That is an identity statement contained in the Gospel of John. There is nothing loving about A trickster God who simply made us to amuse Him. Sounds like the work of something else there!

We do not believe in a Deus ex machine or any other variant. Sorry if you do. I will say a prayer for you.

My God is ever present when I call on Him, He supports me in time of trouble, He is my refuge. This is a statement of experience, not wishful thinking. Why don’t you ask Him to help you come to know Him. Diacussion here may be part of that process. 🙂
 
Lochias said:
Having willfully turned away from God all his life, why would a dead man suddenly choose to be with Him for eternity? If a person can’t stand the sight, sound or even mention of God here on earth, how much more torturous would it be to have to be with Him in Heaven, and thereby see what they themselves had become without Him?

You also need to brush up heavily on your understanding of Catholic theology and eternity…you’re just going to keep running into walls like this if you don’t understand what you’re trying to argue.
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If it’s true that reconciliation is not possible after death, then it can’t also be true that “God is ALWAYS willing to welcome us home”, as asserted by another poster. If that misrepresents Catholic theology in some way, please show how.
 
cornbread_r2 said:
If it’s true that reconciliation is not possible after death, then it can’t also be true that “God is ALWAYS willing to welcome us home”, as asserted by another poster. If that misrepresents Catholic theology in some way, please show how.
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Pardon me. The “us” is the whole person, rational soul and material anatomy.
Personally, I think death changes our status before God. But I am just a cranky (feminine of snarky) granny who is not going to press my luck by ignoring common sense.
 
Robert_Sock said:
In Jewish mysticism (i.e., the Tanya from Chabad) doesn’t it state that God created several world, with our world being the absolute lowest. Would not the beings (humans?) living in the upper worlds be higher than us, at least in mental ability?
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That may be. Although I find it fascinating, I’m no expert in either Kabbalah or Hassidic mysticism, neither of which is entirely in accord with traditionally Orthodox Jewish teaching and, in certain instances, even borders on heresy. But, of course, from the Orthodox Jewish perspective, Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism ARE heretical movements.
 
grannymh said:
Pardon me. The “us” is the whole person, rational soul and material anatomy.

…]
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I seriously doubt that is what the person I quoted had in mind. In any case, it doesn’t affect my argument, i.e. after death, God is no longer willing to welcome home the unrepentant.
 
cornbread_r2 said:
I seriously doubt that is what the person I quoted had in mind. In any case, it doesn’t affect my argument, i.e. after death, God is no longer willing to welcome home the unrepentant.
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I believe you mean the repentant.

In Catholic belief, upon death the human will is fixed. No one in Hell is repentant and being ignored by God.

Usagi
 
cornbread_r2 said:
I seriously doubt that is what the person I quoted had in mind. In any case, it doesn’t affect my argument, i.e. after death, God is no longer willing to welcome home the unrepentant.
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You may have the last word.
 
meltzerboy said:
That may be. Although I find it fascinating, I’m no expert in either Kabbalah or Hassidic mysticism, neither of which is entirely in accord with traditionally Orthodox Jewish teaching and, in certain instances, even borders on heresy. But, of course, from the Orthodox Jewish perspective, Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism ARE heretical movements.
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During my search for a psychologist, I wanted to find someone with a Hassidic background. I finally found a Conservative Jew who is very sensitive about my religious beliefs. I do not get along with non-believers.
 
CeaselessMedik said:
He could have made us equals.
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Equals to Himself? No.

Part of being God is being uncreated and self-existent. A created being will always be less than that.

As others have pointed out, God’s entire project has been one of making us as much like Him as our natures allow. It seems that it would have gone faster had not our earliest ancestors screwed things up.

Usagi
 
cornbread_r2 said:
OK then, after we’re really, really, REALLY dead, there is no chance for reconciliation – which contradicts the statement that “God is ALWAYS willing to welcome us back home”.
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no it doesn’t.

The reason there is no ‘chance’ is not that God won’t GIVE us the chance–it is that once we have entered eternity, time doesn’t exist. There is no ‘future’ in which we ‘could’ change our minds–we exist in a constant ‘now’ in which we freely, consistently, and for that eternity keep ON choosing NOT to reconcile with God.

Chance has nothing to do with it. It’s all about choice. It is hard for a creature living as we do in a world bounded by time to comprehend that time will ‘stop’ --but hey, when we were bouncing around in amniotic fluid in utero, we would NEVER have believed we would leave THAT place and have to use LUNGS to breath AIR. . .but. . .once we were born, it become ‘natural’ for us to do so.

You might just as well rail about having to leave the ‘security’ of the womb where you are fed, sheltered, and comfortable with your needs met, and have to go through being born and face all the possibilities of life ‘outside’–good and bad–and complain that a LOVING God would let us all ‘stay inside’ because SOME of those who are born will experience illness and pain outside the womb that would not have happened ‘inside’ it. But we aren’t created to stay ‘in the womb’ forever. Nor are we created to live ‘in time’ on earth forever, either.
 
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